Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

I believe that any hadith that contradicts Quran should be rejected. You believe otherwise, so please bring forward a hadith that you think we should believe contrary to what is written in the Quran. The title of this thread is about some hadith superceding the Quran. What are these hadith?

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

My point is, it's yours and not extracted from any Quranic principle or otherwise. That's fair enough, but besides the point.

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i only say , look towards Quran and hadees with one point of view
either it should be secular or believers
not separate

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No, the Quran is divine, the Hadith were recorded by scholars. The Hadtih, the concept of four schools, and so on...these are wonderful innovations...but secondary to the faith.

The idea that we rely on the Hadith (note the capital...when we speak of Hadith we're talking about a very specific body of work) for any fundemental aspect of our faith is a bit misleading, as they would have been transmitted anyhow. It's silly to think that no one in the early days knew how to pray until the Hadith were compiled. And it's silly to think that had the Hadith not been compiled, we wouldn't know. There are many aspects of Islam, in fact the most important, that are "live" aspects, and had been continuously practiced since day one.

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wrong, from the time of Hazoor PBUH
and he gave premission to write his words to many sahaba

[/quote]

Permission is not the same as ordering scribes to record his every word. As I said, it was a good practice, but hardly on par with the memorization and collection of the Quran.

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compilation of hadees is different then what ahadees is
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In the end, we have what we have. It was a "best effort" attempt. Not so with the Quran. We have it, and it's complete.

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sorry you forgot , the isnad for Quran is being motawatir , told to many by Hazoor PBUH

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No, that's not the point of isnad. The Point of Isnad is to establish a reliable chain of transmitters. As I said, the Quran was compiled during the life of the Prophet, and collected into a book form by Abu Bakr. No Isnad was needed. There is no place where we can 'verify' each ayat as reliably transmitted by so-and-so. There were enough people around to not require that, not to mention the fact that it was written down.

The rest of your argument relies on people rejecting the Sunnah. Most here don't. Nowhere does it imply that what we managed to collect is as divine as the Quran itself.

The collection of the Hadith was done by the whim of latter day scholars. It was never ordered as an important aspect of the faith in the early days. An important body of work, but it's not even close to the Quran.

Aaj Kiss Baat Par Gussa Aaya ??????
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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

I understand that, but the reliance of transmission on the Meidum has never been explicitly stated by the Quran. So we may argue as such in a secular context, theologically we do not have that liberty.

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

ask this from any Shia alim , he will tell you , that 10 paras are missing today

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

you know why classification was done

-> separate unreferenced and week ahadees from the mutawatar strong ahadees
and for this purpose classification can't be done without taking non muslim ie neutral point of view

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There has got to be a reason. I think there is no such thing as muslim POV or Non-muslim POV. Its all about authenticity and preservation.
Why did the great Imams not have any doubts about the Quran yet they had doubts about the narrative information available the Sunnah of the Prophet SAW.

[/quote]

you know this as well
Quran was coming from heart to heart (ie memorized) among most muslims
but ahadees were not coming memorized by many people and after tabeh tabeen , the fitna of generation of false ahadees , creat great trouble
thats the reason , ulma started work to separate ahadees
and again i say , that was not possible without non muslim or neutral point of view

in history , many ulmah had checked quran with non muslim point of view
even many non muslim had also done this thing and found it absolutely true

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Why were they convinced that the Mushaf that existed in their days was not adulterated.

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kindly can you explain it little more

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Personally I think it might be because the Quran already existed in written form from the time of its revelation and there is no significant lapse from its time of revelation to its compilation.

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Quran is not saved due to existence in written form
almost all sahaba had memorized it and passed it to next generations
and that had helped in thoes days when there were no facility of printing etc
no much copies to check every where in the world
and copies takes time to travel to testify

[quote]

In case of the ahadith, it was all narrative information spread in the Arabian society but very little was recorded in written form (at least not enough to hold a degree of authenticity). The truth (as far as I have concluded thus far) is that none of the narrative information in the ahadith attributed to the prophet SAW or his companions is certain because none of them were alive when the Sahihs were compiled.

[/quote]

they were at the degree of authenticity from the time of Hazoor PBUH
what you are confused
is the the word compiled
make sure , at sahihs time , they were classified to separated unreference ahadees to get rid of fitna of generation of new ahadees
otherwise , ahadees were coming in written and memorized form , from the time of Hazoor PBUH

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The ahadith work is third generation muslim work. With a few exceptions maybe all information beyond the second generation of muslims must have existed only in narrative forms in the minds of the third generation of muslims. Imam Maliks work might be the only exception though. Hadith were not written down at their time of occurance. One thing that really depresses me is that though earlier copies of the Quran were preserved no such pain was taken for ahadith literature which was originally used as the foundations for ahadith.

Every original literature has been destroyed and we are only left with attestations of those who claim to have absorbed those original works into their collections.
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bahi meray trust is the most important thing
again here you are not trusting muslim on hadees part
with word

"in narrative forms in the minds of third generation of muslims" although you know ahadees were in the written form since Hazoor PBUH and Allah had promised to save ahadees via saving Quran

and again i say how you trust when they say that the copy in taskant is the original one , that is also come from the mind of these people and tell me how many of you have checked your copy in home with the one in tashkant etc, if only written form shows authenticity

Ramadan In Your Area
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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

many non muslims / ethists who converts to muslim have this point of view

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No, the Quran is divine, the Hadith were recorded by scholars. The Hadtih, the concept of four schools, and so on...these are wonderful innovations...but secondary to the faith.

The idea that we rely on the Hadith (note the capital...when we speak of Hadith we're talking about a very specific body of work) for any fundemental aspect of our faith is a bit misleading, as they would have been transmitted anyhow. It's silly to think that no one in the early days knew how to pray until the Hadith were compiled. And it's silly to think that had the Hadith not been compiled, we wouldn't know. There are many aspects of Islam, in fact the most important, that are "live" aspects, and had been continuously practiced since day one.

[/quote]

yaar why you not read my previous posts , and go to the post "10 question regarding ahadees"
otherwise , i will revolve in circle and circle

there is also a challenge present answer that question and prove that hadees are not devine
go and check , i don't want to repeat again

[quote]

Permission is not the same as ordering scribes to record his every word. As I said, it was a good practice, but hardly on par with the memorization and collection of the Quran.

In the end, we have what we have. It was a "best effort" attempt. Not so with the Quran. We have it, and it's complete.

No, that's not the point of isnad. The Point of Isnad is to establish a reliable chain of transmitters. As I said, the Quran was compiled during the life of the Prophet, and collected into a book form by Abu Bakr. No Isnad was needed. There is no place where we can 'verify' each ayat as reliably transmitted by so-and-so. There were enough people around to not require that, not to mention the fact that it was written down.

[/quote]

no use to say it again
you havn't read the previous posts

[quote]

The rest of your argument relies on people rejecting the Sunnah. Most here don't. Nowhere does it imply that what we managed to collect is as divine as the Quran itself.

The collection of the Hadith was done by the whim of latter day scholars. It was never ordered as an important aspect of the faith in the early days. An important body of work, but it's not even close to the Quran.
[/QUOTE]

if you don't read post and again and again talk same thing , then its no use to talk

it had been proved that ahadees are from Allah in form of Hazoor PBUH words and Allah saved ahadees and Quran both

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

I know and that is my point how come or what evidence did those great Imams have about the Quran, which prevented them from doing the same thing.

Rightly said, Quran was recorded and transmitted from the very beginning of its revelation. Narratives about the Prophet SAW were not. There is no single person who would have known all the narratives about the Sunnah of the prophet SAW as whoever memorized Quran tried to do it all. There was a beginning and an end to the Quran and there is no such thing about ahadith. There is no written document existent today which can be used as evidence to the authenticity of the hadith collections or what they contain.

There are two broad reasons why this would be considered a true statement:

1 - The massive transmission of Quran in its oral form and its existence from the time of its revelation in written form.

2 - You cannot find contradictions in the Quran when understood in the Chronologically correct order.

What I mean is why did they develop doubts about the narrative information circulating in the Arabian society of that time but yet they never had any doubts about any of the verses in the Quran. I think it is probably because of the sheer magnitude of the Quran being present in memory of so many people as compared to the hadith and also because hadith are not verbatim words of Prophet SAW either.

This is also true however being present in the memory of people is not enough unless it also tallied among all the people. According to people ahadith were also memorized but their were discrepancies and many things did not tally up with one another. And the number of people memorizing the Quran is humungously greater than the narrators of ahadith. How acute a persons memory was is also a big factor in determining the status of ahadith even from the best of narrators.

There is not a single existent copy (to my knowledge) of any hadith literature used by any of the hadith scholars. The oldest written hadith source we have is the Muwatta (or some others don't remember the names however they are only refered to in other original texts but they do not physically exist). Even the only written Sirah of the Prophet SAW life by Ibn Ishaq is lost and only exists in edited form in the rendition of Ibn Hisham. So you would have to Ibn Hishams word for what was in Ibn Ishaqs Sirah literature.

Meray bhai the compilation of hadith literature is an attestation to the lack of trust by the hadith scholars on the information available on the Prophet SAW in their times. If theyt had gone on trust we would not have all these hadith collections today.

This would be an extrapolation that Hadith were saved because Quran was also. This is very irrational to say. We know the hadith scholars practically threw away everything they collected and we claim that hadith were saved because the Quran was saved too. The Quran was not purified by throwing away verses that did not fit a criteria as in the case of hadith.

This is the only point I think you can question me on for real. At least I have never done so and really go by the verdicts of the scholars that it tallys with what is circulated today. Though you might find websites which claim that certain huroof are changed but that is just nitpicking like saying if COLOR is spelled COLOUR it changes the meaning, which we know very well is not true.

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

Peace Khehkeshan

I don't think you read the post that you have replied to carefully, please read again ...

Peace Khehkeshan

You want to bring real examples? So be my guest. Please provide examples of hadith from the sahih mutawatir collections that you want deemed false on account of them being different from what you have understood the Qur'an is saying.

Quite frankly I have not the time to do this, nor do I believe it will be a productive exercise. But you feel it is going to help then do so.

You said "any hadith that contradicts the Qur'an should be rejected"

Now I told you that I cannot do this:

1) Say what the Qur'an truly means
2) Say what the hadith truly means
3) Say whether the hadith actually does or does not contradict the Qur'an

I was trying to prove a point, but that point cannot be proven if you ask me to find hadith that contradict the Qur'an. The issue is not about contradiction, it is about abrogation and you should realise that.

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

this is the thing which didn't let confuse the mind of thoes scholars
Quran has the start and end
and many memorized them as compare to ahadees
and after tabee tabeen there were only few left who can verify that certain ahadees are correct and with correct reference , there fitna start that people start making ahadees with there on will

[quote]

There are two broad reasons why this would be considered a true statement:

1 - The massive transmission of Quran in its oral form and its existence from the time of its revelation in written form.

2 - You cannot find contradictions in the Quran when understood in the Chronologically correct order.

What I mean is why did they develop doubts about the narrative information circulating in the Arabian society of that time but yet they never had any doubts about any of the verses in the Quran. I think it is probably because of the sheer magnitude of the Quran being present in memory of so many people as compared to the hadith and also because hadith are not verbatim words of Prophet SAW either.

[/quote]

here come the problem of classification
scholars have done great job in this respect
ahadees where direct wording of Allah are separted from ahadees where direct wording of Hazoor PBUH are mentioned as well as others are wording of sahabas etc etc and their importance also veries with each classification

its better to see the classification of ahadees thread for detail

[quote]

This is also true however being present in the memory of people is not enough unless it also tallied among all the people. According to people ahadith were also memorized but their were discrepancies and many things did not tally up with one another.

[/quote]

if you read history , then word many here is not suitable
mutawatir had ever tally , problem had ever come to check the ahadees of week or broken chain and scholars have separated them from the rest

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And the number of people memorizing the Quran is humungously greater than the narrators of ahadith. How acute a persons memory was is also a big factor in determining the status of ahadith even from the best of narrators.

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again i said , if you read history , many people have tested the memory of scholars of ahadees many many time and found not a single mistake from them
that we can say , a gift from Allah
there are many example when they were tested of their memory

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There is not a single existent copy (to my knowledge) of any hadith literature used by any of the hadith scholars. The oldest written hadith source we have is the Muwatta (or some others don't remember the names however they are only refered to in other original texts but they do not physically exist). Even the only written Sirah of the Prophet SAW life by Ibn Ishaq is lost and only exists in edited form in the rendition of Ibn Hisham. So you would have to Ibn Hishams word for what was in Ibn Ishaqs Sirah literature.

Meray bhai the compilation of hadith literature is an attestation to the lack of trust by the hadith scholars on the information available on the Prophet SAW in their times. If theyt had gone on trust we would not have all these hadith collections today.

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but you forgot why the lack of trust created in thoes days
although you have mentioned above

but today you have to trust because thoes have tested quran and ahadees
and this is the total writen scriptures about islam
we should be thankful to them
if they wouldn't have done that, today there would be billion and billion of new ahadees and no one would be trusting even a single ahadees

see Allah had save Quran and ahadees through them , although we can raise question on certain ahadees but we can't deny everyone
we know mutawatir ahadees are as true as Quran

[quote]

This would be an extrapolation that Hadith were saved because Quran was also. This is very irrational to say. We know the hadith scholars practically threw away everything they collected and we claim that hadith were saved because the Quran was saved too. The Quran was not purified by throwing away verses that did not fit a criteria as in the case of hadith.

[/quote]

again here you neglect the work of scholars
and said they threw everything they collected, yaar i am not agree with you
if you comeup with this type of argument , then sorry bahi

[quote]

This is the only point I think you can question me on for real. At least I have never done so and really go by the verdicts of the scholars that it tallys with what is circulated today. Though you might find websites which claim that certain huroof are changed but that is just nitpicking like saying if COLOR is spelled COLOUR it changes the meaning, which we know very well is not true.
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just see and imagine
today you can even go to taskent in a day or so
you can check the copy
but still you or even your parent , or within your society , none would have done so
and think about that time
if you were living here and you have to go to tashkent to check either that zehr or zabar is correct , either the molvi of your masjid is teaching you the write quran
how much time would have spent

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

Maybe you might know but were there any Taba Tabaeen who met the first generation muslims or companions. Other than the Four Caliphs there is only scanty information available on the biographies of other companions. Was this enough to authenticate. Don't be confused with the amount of work versus with the quality of the work. I am not trying to let down any of those scholars, they did more than I will ever do or even come remotely close but the truth about information gathering is that it can only be verified from the source and none of the souces of information for the ahadith were alive when the hadith were compiled. The majority of the work is based on reputation and little knowledge of history of the narrators.

Or there would be none. I am absolutely thankful to Allah SWT for preserving such details through those people. You still haven't added any fruitful points to our discussion though. Everything I wrote has been replied with either "You already know" or "read history".

Obviously you did not understand my argument here. It is commonly said that Imam Bukhari collected 300,000 or 600,000 ahadith and finally authenticated only near 3000 of them. You know that means he only accepted 1% or less of what he could gather. If that is not the majority getting thrown out then I do not know what else is.

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

again here i am not agree with you
the scholars had done work on the narrators life as well to check the truthfulness of thoes narrators

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Or there would be none. I am absolutely thankful to Allah SWT for preserving such details through those people. You still haven't added any fruitful points to our discussion though. Everything I wrote has been replied with either "You already know" or "read history".

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actually what i am seeing , none had ever read the ahadees books or one book fully
there will be few people here who have ahadees books in their home

no one had ever make an effort what the scholars point of view etc etc
all come up with imagination

i would like , if some one read thoes books and then point what scholars had said on that hadees etc etc and then critically analaze then it will be fruitful

but what i am seeing
none have interest in reading ahadees
and as the result
publisher are getting rid of scholars work about ahadees
now go in market
you fill find extract version of ahadees books , that is books with ahadees but scholars work are not present there

there 50 books are compiled in one book, all researched work are gone
what were their opinion regarding paticular ahadees , now its becoming more and more difficult

[quote]

Obviously you did not understand my argument here. It is commonly said that Imam Bukhari collected 300,000 or 600,000 ahadith and finally authenticated only near 3000 of them. You know that means he only accepted 1% or less of what he could gather. If that is not the majority getting thrown out then I do not know what else is.
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now i can just imagine why he had thrown so many unreferenced ahadees
but actually what was his opinion , i don't know
paticular material is gone from his books
(atleast in the book to whom i have access from the library)

in my opinion if the original books of thoes scholars are revived , most of the doubts will be removed

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

Well I'll at least let you know you are dealing with a person here who has more than one Tafsir in his house, more than one Sirah book in his house (and I don't mean the Sealed nectar shallow kind, I'm talking Sirah By Ibn Kathir, Dr. Sallabee and others) and all the Siha Sita books and commentary by An Nawawi in his house and various other works. And I am not talking about online free versions or CDs, actual books which I've spent on to have. If you cannot answer my questions please do not assume that I do not know anything.

One thing I do agree with you and it is something I have stated before in this forum is that the new hadith literature that is being published is devoid of the proper commentary on the ahadith at least in English language except for Riyad us Saaliheen.

However the work done by these scholars on narrators of ahadith is in no way comprehensive, its definitely some work but not comprehensive enough to know various aspects of their lives. Its more a collection of tell tales.

One thing I absolutely accredit our scholars of the past for is they are preserved our religion far better than any other religion. No one even comes remotely close to us in that aspect. We can definitely take pride in that but we still should not fool ourselves under that pride also.

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

I will try to put my best, here is a book i have been reading and finished around 3/4th of it the book is Studies in Early hadith literature by MM Azami, a scholary work written around 1970's.
Believe me its a scholarly work, and he has written this book for upto 150 years of AH. Its with references and acknowledged book now amongst the hadith students. Heard the reference from Shaikh Yasir Qadhi's speech regarding Ulum al Hadith.

This is how the book is divided (this is wrt age, time and date of birth and death of each of the scholars)
1) The writing and works of the companion - Thats around 50 companions writing it down and the last amongst the list is Zaid ibn Thabit, its ofcourse in alphabetical order.
2) Writings of the first century successors - Thats around 48 scholars.
3) Writings of from scholars covering early second centuries - Thats 87 scholars.
4) Writings of early second century scholars - Thats around 251 scholars.

The above all with references. Next to follow was the way of conducting the hadith there were many ways from memorizing, to writing the chain of narrators only in the start of the book, the teachers testing the students.
Thast like asking them from somewhere in between.
Then other ways of recording was one student or two students in the class used to write it down and others used to take it down.

Then there way a few scholars who were against some methodology. Infact the scholars an e.g. of Ahmed ibn hanbal just negated a hadith narrator because he used to not design the hadith and written it neatly.

But most important was memorizing and understanding the Quran and joined the muhaddith circle around or after twenty years old. Then they were various ways of writing it down and also memorizing in case of forgery.

I am actually reading the isnad and the ahadith part, so will get back.

The
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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

Thats really wonderful brother, and one more fact i find in this forum is some people think they are really knowledgeable and only they possess that infinite knowledge and i completely abhor this act and i know a couple of them but dont wont to name them.

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

great to learn this
mashallah

[quote]

One thing I do agree with you and it is something I have stated before in this forum is that the new hadith literature that is being published is devoid of the proper commentary on the ahadith at least in English language except for Riyad us Saaliheen.

However the work done by these scholars on narrators of ahadith is in no way comprehensive, its definitely some work but not comprehensive enough to know various aspects of their lives. Its more a collection of tell tales.

One thing I absolutely accredit our scholars of the past for is they are preserved our religion far better than any other religion. No one even comes remotely close to us in that aspect. We can definitely take pride in that but we still should not fool ourselves under that pride also.
[/QUOTE]

fool under the pride also , explain this

~~♥♥♥~~ My New Smily ~~♥♥♥~~
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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

sound nice
i havn't go through this book
but inshallah as soon as i will be free , i will go through this

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

Getting off topic, but that means squat as to what we are obligated to believe.

[quot]
there is also a challenge present answer that question and prove that hadees are not devine
go and check , i don't want to repeat again

[/quote]

They did no such thing, though. The proof was not only wanting, but absent altogether.

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

Bhai you need to be more clear than this.

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran’s Ayats

As I am thoroughly confused now after reading all the posts, I am going out for :chai:.

PS: Kitna stamina hai tum loogon mein.

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

Stamina na hum main nahin aap main hain, hum ek ek post padte hain aur jawab dete hain, aapne to pure ke pure post ek saat padliye.. Just joking