Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
15:9...yes, directly.
By directly I meant did revelation came to you or you were told by someone?
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
By directly I meant did revelation came to you or you were told by someone?
You don't have to believe in the Quran if you don't want to. Nobody is forcing you.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
You don't have to believe in the Quran if you don't want to. Nobody is forcing you.
Still waiting for the answer.:D
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
By directly I meant did revelation came to you or you were told by someone?
I thought it was Allaah.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
I thought it was Allaah.
You thought? I mean did ALLAH send it directly to you?
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
By directly I meant did revelation came to you or you were told by someone?
The Quran is not a direct revelation to Mankind?
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
through a medium. gosh you people quibble on forever.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
^
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
You thought? I mean did ALLAH send it directly to you?
^I personally feel when i read the Quran its like Allaah is talking to me directly and thats what others feel, i get your point that Quran came to us through generations.
But what we fail to understand is Allaah is taken an oath that Allaah will guard the last dhikr i.e. the Quran this is the point of argument. But we have to understand that injeel,torah and psalms also were revealed by Allaah, but were finally corrupted not the same case for the Quran because Allaah is taken an oath here that Allaah will take the responsibility of protecting the Quran because Allaah says so and it is Allaah's will in his divine knowledge.
But the same case wasnt with other divinely revealed books because if Allaah willed even the Quran would be corrupted but it wasnt the case.
Other than that i agree through generations Quran was protected by the muslims but this are only the sources, but it is finally the decision of Allaah to protect the Quran, the best eg is during the last days the Quran will be wiped of from everyone's heart and the muslim's living that time will only conjecturize that there was a Quran, i hope you get my point it is the will of Allaah.
To finish it of i will like to add this verse of the Holy Quran.
018.027
*SHAKIR: And recite what has been revealed to you of the Book of your Lord, there is none who can alter His words; and you shall not find any refuge besides Him. *
Well i did not want to enter this discussion, but had to coz of some misconceptions creeping in about preservation of the Quran, but just imagine for some time, if Allaah hadnt revealed this verse in the Holy Quran and if some disbeliever asks you how do you know Quran hasnt changed for 1400 years, and also imagine there were no copies of Quran present in Tashkent and one in Cairo what would be your answer taht time it would be yes Quran came through us from generations to generations and we believe it is the same.
But now since this verse is revealed we can proudly say Allaah is promised that Allaah will guard the Quran and Allaah's promise is a promise which will never break, Insha Allaah.
Salamvalekum.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
^Khanbabax, i get your point too and your line of argument is also not wrong regarding preservation of the Quran. Take care bro.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
through a medium. gosh you people quibble on forever.
If the Quran relies on intermediaries for accurate transmission, then it has important theological implications...
The suggestion here is that it does...and that's a dangerous one, as it contradicts the Quran itself.
If there is a divine promise of having the Quran preserved, then the medium doesn't matter. The suggestion is, to my understanding, that the preservation is through the medium, and not divine decree. That is false.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
psyah, so you agree that Quran and Hadith are not on the exact same level and that the Quran is on a higher level and guarntted by Allah as complete, right? And hadiths were also written down later than the Quran, right?
Knowing this, as I know you know very well, how can you use hadith to change the complete meaning of a Quranic ayat? Changing the meaning of something is the same thing as changing the original wording! There is a difference between elaborating on an ayat to better understand context and learning how the rulings in that ayat were implemented during the Prophet's (saw) time versus saying that hadith can overrule what is clearly written in the Quran.
To simplify this:
If Quran says something is not permissible to do, and if we find a hadith that says muslims of that time used to that something, we dismiss that hadith and follow Quran. Do you agree?
And why are we continuing to discuss this in abstract, let us bring real examples here.
Peace Khehkeshan
You want to bring real examples? So be my guest. Please provide examples of hadith from the sahih mutawatir collections that you want deemed false on account of them being different from what you have understood the Qur'an is saying.
Quite frankly I have not the time to do this, nor do I believe it will be a productive exercise. But you feel it is going to help then do so.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
If the Quran relies on intermediaries for accurate transmission, then it has important theological implications...
The suggestion here is that it does...and that's a dangerous one, as it contradicts the Quran itself.
If there is a divine promise of having the Quran preserved, then the medium doesn't matter. The suggestion is, to my understanding, that the preservation is through the medium, and not divine decree. That is false.
Peace picoico
The medium and Divine Decree these are not necessarily exclusives. Just a note to take.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
^ Dude he told you that it is part of faith. If you dont understand faith then look for a dictionary. It is mentioned in Quran and muslims bellieve it to be the word of God. Incidently it is not changed the last 1500 or so years so muslims beliveve that is due to God's will and not due to any uniform muslim effort . They also believe that God would keep his promise and there would be no change in his final book ever.
Are we done with the discussion or you have to add something ?
were you present 1500 years ago and you checked the Quran then
and today you again checked the Quran and verified that it had not changed
or the you trusted the people , who brought both they Quran and hadees
thoes people used to believe in Quran and Hadees both as both are part of same wahi and both are from Allah
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
Remember Quran was present in written form right from prophet's time and prophet s.a.w himself emphasized it keeping correct.
how you believe this , you trust muslim here but still you reject ahadees which was also brought by the same muslims who told you this
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
15:9...yes, directly.
tomorrow i will right a book and will right there that " I am the Musharaf Almight"
and then you people will say God is saying that he is in musharaf form in the world
and you can refer that God is mosharaf (naozbillah) and it is written in his book
"musharaf almighty" page x line y
and that will be the proof that God had told you directly
will that be acceptable to you :p
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
You don't have to believe in the Quran if you don't want to. Nobody is forcing you.
you still didn't answer my question
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
^I personally feel when i read the Quran its like Allaah is talking to me directly and thats what others feel, i get your point that Quran came to us through generations.
every muslim should feel like this
and thanx you understand our point
[quote]
But what we fail to understand is Allaah is taken an oath that Allaah will guard the last dhikr i.e. the Quran this is the point of argument. But we have to understand that injeel,torah and psalms also were revealed by Allaah, but were finally corrupted not the same case for the Quran because Allaah is taken an oath here that Allaah will take the responsibility of protecting the Quran because Allaah says so and it is Allaah's will in his divine knowledge.
[/quote]
just try to understand why we believe that the line "Allaah is taken an oath that Allaah will guard the last dhikr" is correct and not added later
and when you understand that
just look on what research people use to reject ahadees with the sentence "it doesn't appear correct to me, and as it is man made so it is wrong"
although Quran and hadees are part of the same revelation given to Hazoor PBUH
[quote]
But the same case wasnt with other divinely revealed books because if Allaah willed even the Quran would be corrupted but it wasnt the case.
Other than that i agree through generations Quran was protected by the muslims but this are only the sources, but it is finally the decision of Allaah to protect the Quran, the best eg is during the last days the Quran will be wiped of from everyone's heart and the muslim's living that time will only conjecturize that there was a Quran, i hope you get my point it is the will of Allaah.
[/quote]
the question here don't you trust the people who brought the quran , on one side Quran people trust them and on other side not
[quote]
To finish it of i will like to add this verse of the Holy Quran.
018.027
*SHAKIR: And recite what has been revealed to you of the Book of your Lord, there is none who can alter His words; and you shall not find any refuge besides Him. *
Well i did not want to enter this discussion, but had to coz of some misconceptions creeping in about preservation of the Quran, but just imagine for some time, if Allaah hadnt revealed this verse in the Holy Quran and if some disbeliever asks you how do you know Quran hasnt changed for 1400 years, and also imagine there were no copies of Quran present in Tashkent and one in Cairo what would be your answer taht time it would be yes Quran came through us from generations to generations and we believe it is the same.
[/quote]
on this i only add how do you believe that Tashkent copy is the real one
is there any where written in Quran that its copy will be preserved in Tashkent and cairo
[quote]
But now since this verse is revealed we can proudly say Allaah is promised that Allaah will guard the Quran and Allaah's promise is a promise which will never break, Insha Allaah.
Salamvalekum.
[/QUOTE]
muslims believe in Quran even before opening of Quran and finding the verses in Quran because it was revealed to us Hazoor PBUH and reached to us through the trust worthy people along with hadees
even if there would'nt have this ayat we had believed in it and still it is able to proof itself that it is true
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
If the Quran relies on intermediaries for accurate transmission, then it has important theological implications...
The suggestion here is that it does...and that's a dangerous one, as it contradicts the Quran itself.
If there is a divine promise of having the Quran preserved, then the medium doesn't matter. The suggestion is, to my understanding, that the preservation is through the medium, and not divine decree. That is false.
problem here is not to check the authenticity of Quran but to proof the authenticity of medium through the Quran
because if quran is trasferred to us through muslims
and same people brought hadees
there is not a single lie or alteration in Quran that means the people (muslims ) who brought the Quran to us are trustworthy and thoes people also brought hadees, so how they can say true on one side and lie on other side
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
every muslim should feel like this and thanx you understand our point
just try to understand why we believe that the line "Allaah is taken an oath that Allaah will guard the last dhikr" is correct and not added later
and when you understand that just look on what research people use to reject ahadees with the sentence "it doesn't appear correct to me, and as it is man made so it is wrong"
although Quran and hadees are part of the same revelation given to Hazoor PBUH
the question here don't you trust the people who brought the quran , on one side Quran people trust them and on other side not
on this i only add how do you believe that Tashkent copy is the real one is there any where written in Quran that its copy will be preserved in Tashkent and cairo
muslims believe in Quran even before opening of Quran and finding the verses in Quran because it was revealed to us Hazoor PBUH and reached to us through the trust worthy people along with hadees even if there would'nt have this ayat we had believed in it and still it is able to proof itself that it is true
I feel more then a rebuttal you are just emphasizing on mypoints and giving a clear picture, i am sorry but i found as a support to me rather than a rebuttal more of summarizing my topic.