Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

Peace Khehkeshan

I have officially left the position of trying to get people to understand that the English word abrogate is not sufficient for the activity that is being pertained to, i.e. contextualisation, exception and the setting of parameters.

However, this particular statement I have quoted is very much deserving of an answer. It is NOT true that hadith came to us from people many years after the Prophet (SAW). What has happened after the Prophet (SAW) is this:

The collection of the Qur'an and compilation into a single volume.
The collection of hadith and narrative sources.
The classification of hadith based on a number of sciences.

The term sahih, muttawatir, ahad, dhaeef, ghareeb, etc are terms that have come to us many years after the Prophet (SAW), however, to say the hadith themselves have come to us many years later is a fallacy and quite plainly foolish to assert. When certain hadith for example relate the 'Last Sermon' aakhiri khutba, we cannot say that the Prophet (SAW) did not pass those words to us when he uttered them, but instead there was this gap many years later then all of sudden hadith were being distributed.

In historical chronology, the Sunnah and sayings of Prophet (SAW) were being memorised by the companions in much the same way as the Qur'anic ayaat. Often the format of revelation was that the prophet Muhammad (SAW) would be in conversation with say the Jews, then all of sudden he would be overtaken, and he would then utter the Qur'anic ayaat as it was being revealed to him to answer a specific case for his audience to see. Then at a later stage or there and then, he would explain certain ayaat. Sometimes his explanations were very different from what the companions could initially realise themselves simply from the Qur'anic words using their intellects.

In many cases the prophet Muhammad (SAW) would ask his companions questions regarding the meaning of certain ayaat or certain signs, at least they had the decency to say, "Allah (SWT) and His Rusool (SAW) know best", but now we get a translation and think we understand it and then when we hear a hadith that goes against it in our minds then we reject the hadith, but I don't know why we should be doing that?

Last person to answer this post wins!!!!
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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran’s Ayats

wasalam

kindly can you refer me in which ayat of Quran it is said , you don’t have to do zibiah
and Quran clearly tells that dead meat is haram
and do you do zibaiah to fish etc

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

so you are living through the time of Prophet PBUH as you have direct listened the Quran from Hazoor PBUH
you will be more then 1400 years of age

i know two , who were living at that time and living till now
one Allah who don't have to give explanation specially on boards
he will say ,"ho ja and ho jaey ga , jo wo chayeh ga"

second "shetan" that always try to use stupid logic to derail the human beings

so am i talking to shetan

if you are shetan

yaar khuda ka khof kahoo, kitnay aur logon ko barbad karo gay apni is stupid logic sey

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats


Because we don't have the luxury of having the Prophet (saw) speak to us and explain the Quran if we have a question. We only have written versions of hadith and Quran. Tell me if Quran and hadith are on exactly the same level, when did Allah (swt) not say that hadith are complete and can never be changed. Why was this only said about the Quran?

And once again why is there no concept of weak ayats or strong ayats but there is such a concept in hadiths? If they were written exactly at the same time, why is this the case? Sorry, this does not pass the logic test and we are allowed to use are brains. If you are comfortable in rejecting a Quranic ayat in favour of a haidth, then that is between you and Allah. I am not ready to do that.

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

Allah has promised us that Quran will remain unchanged. Do you believe in this?

Allah has not promised the same for hadith. If asking you to think twice before rejecting Quran in favor of hadith makes me shaitan, then so be it.

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

Galaxy bhai no one here is talking about rejecting ayah of the Quran.

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

What do you call trying to supercede a Quranic ayat? That assumes that ti is wrong.

Who is galaxy bhai?

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

ahhhh....nevermind.....forget about what i was saying.

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

since khanbabax has left this debate. it is dying its natural death

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

who told you mr or miss khehkshan
that Allah had promised that Quran will remain unchanged and not promised for Hadees

does Hazoor PBUH told you directly
or the people

just answer this

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

There's this thing called faith, do you know what it is? Now do you want to increase your sins even further by saying that Quran has changed? nauzubillah

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

just answer my question
how do you know that Quran will not change

does Hazoor PBUH told you directly
or the people told you

answer this only
no angy bangy

Share your habits
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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

^ Dude he told you that it is part of faith. If you dont understand faith then look for a dictionary. It is mentioned in Quran and muslims bellieve it to be the word of God. Incidently it is not changed the last 1500 or so years so muslims beliveve that is due to God's will and not due to any uniform muslim effort . They also believe that God would keep his promise and there would be no change in his final book ever.

Are we done with the discussion or you have to add something ?

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

Well said...

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran’s Ayats

Allah :swt: tells us…

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

Peace Khehkeshan

The Qur'an is the word of God the hadith are the words of man about the sayings and doings of the prophet Muhammad (SAW), and his companions.

Of course the level is not the same.

Your argument about hadith not being deemed complete and unchangable is not valid here. It is a red-herring. The reason why it is a red-herring is because I am not doing what you are asserting about me. I am not equivocating the ayat of the Qur'an with the words of the hadith. It is you who thinks that I am doing that due to your understanding of the term complete and unchanging.

No body is picking up the words of the Qur'an and replacing them with new ones. And we all still reading the ayat of the Qur'an as they are supposed to be read. It is the meaning that can emanate as an array from a single ayah. But certains understandings will supercede others based on the situation surrounding the events of the hadith and the time the ayah was being revealed compared to the application of that verse in this day.

When did I say the hadith were written at the same time as the Qur'an? All I said was that hadith and Qur'an had to come to us at the same time. I mean, in the form of verbally transmitted recitations and written forms for the Qur'an, and active manifestations of people acting upon the guidance in the form of people observing other people that would later be called hadith. These observations were documented later, but the communication of those observations were very much prevalent in those days.

So it is true today we don't have the prophet (SAW), but today we have the hadith, which is like having the prophet (SAW), because it is by the hadith that we can truly realise what and how the prophet Muhammad (SAW) actually understood and acted upon the ayat of the Qur'an.

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran’s Ayats

Directly?

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

psyah, so you agree that Quran and Hadith are not on the exact same level and that the Quran is on a higher level and guarntted by Allah as complete, right? And hadiths were also written down later than the Quran, right?

Knowing this, as I know you know very well, how can you use hadith to change the complete meaning of a Quranic ayat? Changing the meaning of something is the same thing as changing the original wording! There is a difference between elaborating on an ayat to better understand context and learning how the rulings in that ayat were implemented during the Prophet's (saw) time versus saying that hadith can overrule what is clearly written in the Quran.

To simplify this:

If Quran says something is not permissible to do, and if we find a hadith that says muslims of that time used to that something, we dismiss that hadith and follow Quran. Do you agree?

And why are we continuing to discuss this in abstract, let us bring real examples here.

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

15:9...yes, directly.

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

Well this is an entirely new debate. I never heard in my life before that Hadith supercedes Quran in some place.

Quran starts from the recitation that it is a book which has no doubt. Remember Quran was present in written form right from prophet's time and prophet s.a.w himself emphasized it keeping correct. Also in Yammama battle once a lot of huffaz embraced shahdat, muslims took extreme pains to keep it safe. No such acts were done to safeguard Ahadith.

I again say that lot of Ahadit circulating these days even if quoted from Sahih Bukharee have found their origin from some impostor and not from the prophet. if you ask an example, take the Qartas event of the last days of prophet from Bukharee. It is absolutely absurd.