Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

[khanbabax]

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

[QUOTE]
Bhai sahab, if i am not wrong you or some of your sunni fella made the statement that khabr e wahid or not, hadith is a hadith and sharia laws can be framed on it. Is it so?
[/QUOTE]

First of all we are talking about mutawatir and only it can abrogate an ayat of the Quran. There are different rules for khabar-e-wahid.

[QUOTE]

Where has Allah or Rasool e Pak told that a mutawatir hadith is a superior hadith than khabr e wahid.

[/QUOTE]

Actions of Prophet s.a.w and Sahabas are also proof.

[QUOTE]
Mutawatir only means reported by many people
[/QUOTE]

And Quran also reached us through tawatur, hence there can be no doubt in tawatur, not even .00001%.

mutawatir def: related by whole groups of individuals from whole groups, in multiple contiguous channels of transmission leading back to the Prophet himself, such that the sheer number of separate channels at each stage of transmission is too many for it to be possible for all to have conspired to fabricate the hadith (which makes it obligatory to believe in and denial of which is kufr). [cf. Reliance of the Traveller o22.1(dII)]

[QUOTE]
and Khabre wahid is reported by one.
[/QUOTE]

Hence not as strong as mutawatir.

[QUOTE]
, but we need quotes of sahabas not these jurists and scholars
[/QUOTE]

Read above, also these jurists are the students of Sahabas.

[meherealone]

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

.

i don't know , am i right or wrong here
but an example comming to my mind at this time that might be helping your point of view

Quran had declared every dead meat haram for us
but via hadees we know that fish is halal which also used to be dead meal

will here hadees is superceding or not , i don't know

but i think the word superced actually creating problem in the minds of many people

the fact is that via hadees we have been given many exceptions
as mostly Ayats are for general purpose
and Ahadees refere to some specific case

[USResident]

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran’s Ayats

@meherealone

i don’t know , am i right or wrong here
but an example comming to my mind at this time that might be helping your point of view

Quran had declared every dead meat haram for us
but via hadees we know that fish is halal which also used to be dead meal

will here hadees is superceding or not , i don’t know

but i think the word superced actually creating problem in the minds of many people

the fact is that via hadees we have been given many exceptions
as mostly Ayats are for general purpose
and Ahadees refere to some specific case

Bro, all that is in the sea is lawful to us if you go strictly by the Quran. Hadith has no play here. Our jurists though can reasoned based on ahadith categories of what is halal and what is haram in the sea.

[khanbabax]

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran’s Ayats

@USResident

Bro, all that is in the sea is lawful to us if you go strictly by the Quran. Hadith has no play here. Our jurists though can reasoned based on ahadith categories of what is halal and what is haram in the sea.

So you are rejecting the hadees/sunnah?

Ahle Sunnah have 4 proofs of Sharia:

1. Quran. 2. Sunnah. 3. Ijma. 4. Qiyas.

[psyah]

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

Salamvalekum Brother pysah,

With the first post in this discussion we have agreed on the first point. The second point we are still dwindling and hence we have to discuss more on that issue, because our POV differs. Hence i would classify the first part of discussion you questioned as Session 1. The aforementioned statements is my summary.

My question is based on the Quran and the Hadith. I will just quote and eg.

1) A Mutawatir Hadith narrated in Al bukahri, Abu Dawood, Ahmad, At Tirmidhi. Now this is present in the Sahih Bukhari,

'There is no salah for the one who recites Surah Al Fatiha'

But,

1) Amongst the hanafis the ruling is dont recite anything during the salah when read aloud or silent, but just keep quiet 2) Amongst shaffis its a must to recite fatiha otherwise salah is not considered at all.

I can surely talk about this because i have been with them, and i myself was a hanafi so i am sure on this rulings.

Now i have this verse from the Quran 007.204 YUSUFALI: When the Qur'an is read, listen to it with attention, and hold your peace: that ye may receive Mercy. PICKTHAL: And when the Qur'an is recited, give ear to it and pay heed, that ye may obtain mercy. SHAKIR: And when the Quran is recited, then listen to it and remain silent, that mercy may be shown to you

Now my point is Allaah mentions remains silent, when Quran is being recited so can this mutawatir hadith supercede the Quranic Ayah.

Before discussing I would like to consider all the discussion we have had in this thread, 1) Regarding Quranic Ayah found in the Quran. 2) Not found in the Quran but in the hadith 3) Found in both 4) Research on not understanding (misunderstanding), Quranic verse and need help from the Quran.

I have just summarised, brother my only understanding of this thread is Mutawatir hadith superseding the Quran and this is just an eg. INsha Allaah, awaiting for your answer regarding this issue.

Salamvalekum

Assalamu'alaikum Bro. SlaveofAllaah

I have kept you waiting, for this I apologise. I am amused at this conversation, because it is not productive and I was hoping my silence was to ensure this line ends. We should all fear the authority we try to assume.

Brother you asked:

"Now my point is Allaah mentions remains silent, when Quran is being recited so can this mutawatir hadith supercede the Quranic Ayah."

To this I answer "You have understood the ayah says just that what you have quoted" You have also understood the term 'abrogate' to take on the specific meaning of 'supercede' as in the English synonym of the term. My answer to you brother has to be silence. I can take one meaning over another but who am I to take meanings, do I trust my understanding of the ayat over the understanding of the scholars? How do we know that the ayat you quoted is for a specific condition? How do we know it is not? Can the translation of 'when' in the ayat also be translated as 'whenever'? Why should 'naskh' take the meaning of 'supercede'? But you see these are rhetorical questions. I have no knowledge and enough 'aqal inshaAllah to remain silent.

Please do not reply to this.

[SlaveofAllaah]

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

Salamvalekum,

Thanks brother psyah. I respect your feelings and this the main reason i do not get into debates because of its irrelevance to find an end to it. Other reason is in the forums most of them rather come here for argument.

Well it was great discussing with you.

[psyah]

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran’s Ayats

@USResident

Br. Psyah

I agree with this. Infact generalizing the rules or principles derived from specific situations often leads to misinterpretation. An example would be the verses from Surah Taubah that many Islamists use to conduct offensive operations against non-muslims under the context of Jihad. One thing though, when you mention relaxing, it means that rules or agendas are followed that appease the current situation without violating basic tenets of Islam.

This I do not agree with. The context of your reasoning was that the situation does not exist or hold true, which means there is nothing to abrogate because you are not in a position to even apply the ruling. In this case, there would be no question of overturning the ruling through an abrogation. The context of a situation must first lend itself to a certain ruling before it can be subjected to an abrogation.

If you meant to say that it has universal principles then I think I will agree with you. I cannot grasp the notion of timeless conditions. Conditions are time relevant. Principles are not though.

Agree that the Sunnah does contextualise a lot of verses from the Quran and sets and describes the parameters. Examples are prayers and charity. We do not need to go far in this case.

Absolutely right.

I agree with this however the line of discussion is about Mutawatir ahadith superceding the Quran. The context of this discussion is a Maskh which can over turn the ruling of the Quran in a specific situation. I do not believe we are pondering upon the general concept of Naskh but a very specific masala here. As you said if a Sunnah contextualizes the Quran then there should be a relevant verse that adheres itself to the basic premise in a Sunnah or it should be completely absent meaning there is no Quranic ruling on a specific matter and it is only to be found in the Sunnah.

Some people might have been stuck on terminology however I am not. I do agree that a Sunnah can define a set of parameters for a general Quranic command or verse. An example is that of music, which I was discussing a while ago in another thread. People often make music outright haram without realizing the parameters set in the ahadith or its context. One can only realize this when ahadith with opposite rulings are studied as well. There can’t be two rulings on a specific subject given the context is the same.

I am also refering to the argument that the Quran is complete from the perspective of being a mushaf and what was supposed to be propagated to the future generations however it is not complete from the perspective of all revelation that was part of Quran and we only learn such a thing through the ahadith. An example is the hadith of Umar which discusses the verses of Rajm. The ruling is in effect however the verse has been completely textually abrogated. Does that make sense? I know I discussed this with you Br. before in which your reason was that it is defining the parameters of the verse of flogging in the Quran but based on the hadith that would not be true because the hadith states that the Sunnah was following an abrogated verse of the Quran. So now the absense of that verse makes this hadith for stoning conflict with the flogging ayat in Quran unless we admit that some revealed verses of the Quran were not meant to be in there.

Peace Bro. USResident

I’ll keep this short …

You wrote:
“This I do not agree with. The context of your reasoning was that the situation does not exist or hold true, which means there is nothing to abrogate because you are not in a position to even apply the ruling. In this case, there would be no question of overturning the ruling through an abrogation. The context of a situation must first lend itself to a certain ruling before it can be subjected to an abrogation.”

You have misunderstood me which is why I think you are disagreeing. From what you have written above it seems you are making no distinction between the term clause to that of the term context. For me the ‘clause’ is the act that has a ruling regarding it, the context is the surrounding issue that is not necessarily apparent as the ‘clause’ is being read. I hope this makes sense, if it doesn’t then forget about it.

You also wrote:
“however the line of the discussion is about Mutawatir ahadith superceding the Quran”

I believe you feel that the line of the discussion is about ahadith supeceding the Quran, and may even be the case with the person who is defending the position, but that is not my line. My line is to get to the bottom of the issue, which I believe I have done, but this would not be wise of me to say here. Superceding by the way is an English word which carries a very English meaning and I do not believe that any inference of the term ‘naskh’ or ‘nansakh’ are in any way as restrictive as this term. Dangerous to use because it makes it seem that certain people are doing and believing in something very different. So far, chronology has not been introduced either. SubhanAllah let’s quit while we know we are ignorant. I mean people can argue and debate, but that should be left for lesser topics.

[USResident]

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

@khanbabax

So you are rejecting the hadees/sunnah?

Ahle Sunnah have 4 proofs of Sharia:

1. Quran. 2. Sunnah. 3. Ijma. 4. Qiyas.

No bro I am not. All I meant to indicate to the original poster was that there is also a Quranic ayat pertinent to sea food.

[USResident]

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran’s Ayats

@psyah

Peace Bro. USResident

I’ll keep this short …

You wrote:
“This I do not agree with. The context of your reasoning was that the situation does not exist or hold true, which means there is nothing to abrogate because you are not in a position to even apply the ruling. In this case, there would be no question of overturning the ruling through an abrogation. The context of a situation must first lend itself to a certain ruling before it can be subjected to an abrogation.”

You have misunderstood me which is why I think you are disagreeing. From what you have written above it seems you are making no distinction between the term clause to that of the term context. For me the ‘clause’ is the act that has a ruling regarding it, the context is the surrounding issue that is not necessarily apparent as the ‘clause’ is being read. I hope this makes sense, if it doesn’t then forget about it.

You also wrote:
“however the line of the discussion is about Mutawatir ahadith superceding the Quran”

I believe you feel that the line of the discussion is about ahadith supeceding the Quran, and may even be the case with the person who is defending the position, but that is not my line. My line is to get to the bottom of the issue, which I believe I have done, but this would not be wise of me to say here. Superceding by the way is an English word which carries a very English meaning and I do not believe that any inference of the term ‘naskh’ or ‘nansakh’ are in any way as restrictive as this term. Dangerous to use because it makes it seem that certain people are doing and believing in something very different. So far, chronology has not been introduced either. SubhanAllah let’s quit while we know we are ignorant. I mean people can argue and debate, but that should be left for lesser topics.

Br. Psyah, I think I understand what you mean by clause here, and if I do, then you would agree a certain context can have many clauses which could have different rulings relative to the context.

I agree that much is lost in translation. The only reason I refered to the narrow line of discussion was because that was the original topic of the thread.

I respect your wishes Akhi, we can quit.

[khanbabax]

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

No bro I am not. All I meant to indicate to the original poster was that there is also a Quranic ayat pertinent to sea food.

Ok thanks. =)

[Khehkeshan]

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

Just in case if anyone wants to know what "abrogate" actually means. From webster.

1 : to abolish by authoritative action : annul

2 : to treat as nonexistent

[MKF]

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

@khanbabax

Let see a debate/dialogue between a DOCTOR and IRON SMITH, and IRON SMITHS are telling the DOCTOR what medicine he sould prescribe and what not. :D Very good. First spend atleast 10 years under the experts (not online), and then I MIGHT consider your opinion, get to the level of jurists and mufassirs.

OK Doctor Sahab! Please quote one place where prophet said that if i have some thing which supercedes Quran, accept it. If Rasool ullah really gave some order which was superceding Quran, then why did not Sahabas ask the question.

Lack of any such thing only means that these Ahadiths superceding Quran and attaining the status of Mutawatir were only generated after the prophet left this world. As far as this iron smith understands.

do not work on conjectures, quote from prophet or sahabas that they heard Rasool saying this.

[Khehkeshan]

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

How can anything supersede Gods words?

[khanbabax]

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

@Khehkeshan

How can anything supersede Gods words?

Whatever Prophet s.a.w says is also a revelation. (un-recited)

[khanbabax]

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

@MKF

OK Doctor Sahab! Please quote one place where prophet said that if i have some thing which supercedes Quran, accept it. If Rasool ullah really gave some order which was superceding Quran, then why did not Sahabas ask the question. .

As I have manytinoed many time already, Prophet s.a.w acted on this principle, Sahabas acted on this principle during the time of Prophet s.a.w, and this is enough proof for the Muslims. So this principle was already there, only names such as mutawatir came later on. Same like during the time of Sahabas, they didnt have the names Saheeh Hadees/Weak Hadees etc, but principles were there.

[Khehkeshan]

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

@khanbabax

Whatever Prophet s.a.w says is also a revelation. (un-recited)

But these are words that others say the Prophet (saw) said, how can we trust any source over the Quran? I would rather go to the grave as a Hadith rejector than a Quran rejector.

[khanbabax]

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

@Khehkeshan

But these are words that others say the Prophet (saw) said, how can we trust any source over the Quran? I would rather go to the grave as a Hadith rejector than a Quran rejector.

Quran also came to us through the same people, you are trusting them about Quran and not Sunnah? So are you indircelty implying that Prophet s.a.w and Sahabas and whole Ummah rejected the Quran by beliving in this principle. Just say this is above your intellectual level?

[MKF]

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

@khanbabax

As I have manytinoed many time already, Prophet s.a.w acted on this principle, Sahabas acted on this principle during the time of Prophet s.a.w, and this is enough proof for the Muslims. So this principle was already there, only names such as mutawatir came later on. Same like during the time of Sahabas, they didnt have the names Saheeh Hadees/Weak Hadees etc, but principles were there.

sir! why are you dodging the question? Please ask your (offline experts) and quote. Why cannot you quote Prophet or any Sahabe even saying that Prophet's statement if conflicts with Quran supercedes it.

[jishah]

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

Salam!

Being busy and away for a while, but back today and had to read from start to end on this issue. A lot of you have done good and tried to solve it and even Khanbabax has, by putiing this, done good for the ummah ( as it gives us depth and curusity to gain).
And now am addint to it.

Lets go back in history:

1)
Almost Every one is kafir and there is no open Islam even thru prophrt yet. The only thing that is open about prophet is Sadiq and Ameen. These are the two essential pillars that Allah would let prophet built islam on, Sadiq and Ameen.

a) Ameen: what ever is kept/given to rasool comes back to the righteous owner in the perfect form ( the form it was given to prophet), without subtraction or addition to it, as experienced thru out by people.

b) Sadiq: what ever the conditon(s) is/are he tells truth, with out going into personal benifits or loss.

So when he claims Islam and starts evealing of ayaas of Quran, he does not have to tell the people that " Ayas he is passing are pure and preserved in the form given by Allah ( Ameen ) and what ever he present to the people are not lie or fabricated but from Allah ( Sadiq) or explain to the people he being sadiq or ameen.

So how can he say some thing being the part of quran by quoting it as AYAA from Allah and then doing against or abbrogating it:
Proves he could not preserved the ayaa in disccusion and thus whole quran and he was liar at first in the case of ayaa or is doing now for personal benefit.

2)
Islam and followers are babeis
He contradicts his own statement in quran as ayaa by implementing thru abbrogation.
a) disqulaifies him as man with integrity or man of words and all the stage as ameen and sadiq is lost in seconds.
b)faith in prophet as a prophet or true representitive of Allah is lost, as follower does not dis obey his master and if does then can not be called as true follower or represntative.

3) Hadith..................leaving Quran and Sunnah
Quran supercedez sunnaha not the other way around

4) Hadith ............. compare hadith with quran
Tester or fault detector is quran not hadith

5)Hadith......... propeht or quran never said , hadith (s) can not be fabricated , or changed, or will remain with integrity, or has challanged about hadith to brint like this one, or ............

6) Quran...... Allah clearly challanged bring whole book, 10 chpaters or one suraha,
and then challanged that he will keep it intact/preserved

7) quran........... saying that abbrogation of ayaa only if like or better .......... does not invalidate the basic rule in the abbrogated one but LIKE or BETTER , and like or better ( being together) does not mean opposite/contradictory, that is new like or better ayaa will not change Halal to Haraam or vice versa but like or better

8) being from scholar or some one else does not change Ayaa or quran, but a personal openion ( with respect as every one is free)

take care & AH

[Khehkeshan]

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

@khanbabax

Quran also came to us through the same people, you are trusting them about Quran and not Sunnah? So are you indircelty implying that Prophet s.a.w and Sahabas and whole Ummah rejected the Quran by beliving in this principle. Just say this is above your intellectual level?

Quran came to us through Prophet (saw), hadith came to us from people many years after the Prophet. Did you not know that? Allah has said Quran cannot be changed, nothing like this has been said about hadith. Don't become a Quran rejector brother.