Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
I am sorry but this thinking of yours is very dangerous. You are implying that following Sahabas is something differetnt from following the Prophet s.a.w. Following the Sahabas and their students (jurists) is infact following the Prophet s.a.w.
How many times do I h ave to repeat. The two examples I gave were from the time of Prophet s.a.w and He was ok with it. This is proof enough.
Thanks got my answer brother.
Salamvalekum
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
To all of them here, i am not talkign about the people who believe that Hadith can supercede the Quran.
Well, people laud themselves by saying i have read this and that, they should understand everyone is not a fool around here and when some comments are passed, they say i read this and i dont do like others again a key of blind following.
I am sorry i lack time as of now but try to put in few insights.
1) We know Quran can abrogate the Quran but not hadith, no where in the Quran its mentioned that mutawatir hadith can supercede the Quran because if its was given Allaah would have surely spoken about it in the Quran.
That Hakim the wisdome which the scholars usually implies for the Prophetic tradition can supercede the word of Allaah.
You see people are looking other way round prove me the verse in the Quran but not the other way round, someone who is intelligent can understand what i have stated.
2) For hadith to qualify it has to be authentic and not contradict with the Quran, again not the other way round someone who feel hadith can abrogate the Quran then his is gravely mistaken and should be lashed accordingly.
3) Now let me take you through the verses in the Holy quran which be a slam dunk to all this theory of mutawatir hadith superceding the Quran.
002.078 *
**SHAKIR:* And there are among them illiterates who know not the Book but only lies, and they do but conjecture.
002.079 *
**SHAKIR:* Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah, so that they may take for it a small price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.
To understand word illetrate here is a big issue if any one is interested let him/her pm me. The above verses where revealed for the Jews if you can read the verses above and below it. But i find striking resemblance to the people who are supporting such futile claim of hadith superceding the Quran.
If you observe the bold part it clearly says write the book and claim this is from Allaah, now check the similarity a mutawatir hadith can superseded the Quran that is the word of Allaah, please contemplate.
Now the next verse
004.082 *
**SHAKIR:* Do they not then meditate on the Quran? And if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancy.
No doubt about it check it out that means to say Quran naozbillaah had a discrepancy in it and hence a hadith was supposed to supercede the Quran claiming that Allaah had deficiency and even the Prophet who did not say in explicit words that *Quran can abrogate the hadith. *
The guy who is arguing here, hasnt brought this hadith to me till date but look at the ignorance level instead of asking he says show me a Quranic ayat claiming mutawatir hadith can supercede the Quran, you claim and kindly read my first point for your rebutall and stop copy pasting for heavens sake, dont be blind folded.
NOw this verse will slam dunk the entire theory claimed by great jurists, let Allaah have mercy on them they can commit mistakes but this is a complete slam dunk
005.003 *
**SHAKIR:*
This day have those who disbelieve despaired of your religion, so fear them not, and fear Me. This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion; but whoever is compelled by hunger, not inclining willfully to sin, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Now what does that verse mean, the eg of Muadh ibn Jabal read it and see it. It says if not present in the quran then sunnah of the Prophet not the other way round you are just ignorant and spreading some nuisance here regarding the Quran believe me wallaahi billaahi this is a claim which should be thrown to a dust bin and you are supporting it.
Tell me are we foolish just because we dont find Prayering action in the Quran we follow the sunnah otherwise, why would we be doing it if present in the Quran. We pray coz its mentioned in the Quran.
Now ponder over the verse **5:3 **Islam is complete, complete to claim any mutawatir hadith claims that Islam is incomplete, why i am stating this is because a hadith can supercede the Quran so that implies the word of Allaah was incomplete stating that Allaah naozbillaah is a liar.
Well, ponder over it brothers and sisters because these claims eat up this great religion from Inside.
Now let me quote this famous hadith of the Propohet in arabic then translate it in english. This was most often repeated by Proophet before the Jumaah prayer.
Wa khairal hadisi kitabu Allaah, wa khairal hadi hadii Muhammad salah Allaahyi wa sallam, wa sharal omoori mo da sa tuha, was kullu mohdasatin bidah, wa kullu bidatin dalala wa kullu dalalatin fin naar.
The best of discourse is the book of Allaah, and the best way is the way of Prophet Mohammed,worst matters in the religion are those new introduced, for every innovation in the religion is misguidance, and every misguidance is going astray and ever astray will lead you to hell fire.
Even the Prophet claimed the best discourse, guidance is book of Allaah and this hadith worshippers claim that book of Allaah can be superceded by a Mutawatir Hadith.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
So you are
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So you are comparing the Sahabas and jurists with Christians? SubhanAllah!!
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i answered ur logic, whats wrong in that, those people belive that God have son because their scholars say so, u believe a hadees can superceed quranic verse some scholars say so.. whats is the difference between them and you.. both are taking scholars words resulting, one have changed their divine book and other is sidelining it.
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All fitnas and sects start when people leave the expert and use their own intellect. And this ayat has nothing to do with the topic.
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Iam afraid ur statement is not true, All fitnas started when people started following scholars blindly and sidelined the book.
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Also not relevent here, since this principle is not against the Quran. And I have gave two examples where Sahabas during the time of Prophet s.a.w acted on this hadees which superceded ayat of the Quran.
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Ofcourse how can be it relevant, because in case of relavancy, ur scholars will loose their case. any way ur examples were well answered by code_red.. so thats and i was waiting for ur answer to slave of Allah, giving a hadees which says that hadees can superceed quranic verse.. so far u were unable to answer that one.. and only quoted some ulemas... Give a direct example when the Prophet (PBUH) acted against quran. the reason i gave u ref. of sura Anfaal is that in that, sura Allah Subhan.o.tala Condemned Prophet(PBUH) and warned for Azaab-e-Aleem for agreeing to let the POW go if ransom has been paid.( but it was obviuos that either u dont want to go to the side where ur scholar loose or u have no idea about the whole incident)
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Also not relevent here unless you can quote him saying that he didint believe in this principle. Imam Abu Yusuf and Imam Qurtubi were higher jurists tham him.
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Its your lucky day
I ll post that in another topic today in about an hours time ( inshaAllah) as a title of Principle of Ahadees
infact Illama ibn-e-jozi came up with this principle that any hadees which is in contradict of Quran is Fabricated which was later confirmed by other scholars of Ahadees.
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Yes bring me from Quran where it says mutawatir cant supercede an ayat of the Quran. Please dont quote ayats about the protection of the Quran, thats not the topic here.
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that is the topic brother, u r saying that quran is faulty thats y Prophet (PBUH) has to correct it by ahadees. ( which any way was collected after 100 years of hijra and out which hundred of thousands were rejected by Imam Bukhari itself, and which is selected was not (according to him) was not 100% correct). Later Scholars tookup the duty to correct the quran. ( same as chirstains do with their book).
OK now there is no aya saying that, but there must be aya saying that if hadees if u found a hadees in contradict with quran, follow the hadees.. please quote that aya from quran. as i think u have it or the scholars u believe in have it aur came up with to fix the faulty quran.
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Again I think you are not aware of what mutawatir means. Mutawaitr is when a hadees on same topic was related by many people and can be found in different books of hadees (not just Bukhari).
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and i think u don't know which word is valid word of Allah or word of Scholar!
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Please stick to the topic, we are not talking about Bukhari but issue of mutawatir
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Ofcourse it is the topic, u r talking about Continous Ahadees and iam bringing the authencity of those books by their authors... now... tell me have u ever red the preface if BUkhari or Muslim... or let me ask have u ever seen bukhari or muslim ( other than on net)
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
L0L, brother, did you read tafseer, usul-e-tafseer from any scholar?Mufti ibn Adam is a Mufti and he knows what he is talking about. This has been the view of the Sahabas, and tabieen and jamhoor uptil now. This is enough said. You can refer to your local scholars.
I am sorry i can not entertain any further quesitons, if you keep on shy away from fundamental questions, from my earlier posts. and other what friends have asked in this thread. I have explained you what are the faults in your example. A mufti can make mistake. Allah has revealed quran for every human being for to understand and act upon.
So please take some time and read it, its very easy to understand... contrarty to what mullah tell us.
The common rule which we all know is that quranic verse can supercede, ammend, substitute another quranic command.
Now if some person says that quranic verse which says dont go near Salat (prayer) when you are under the influence of intoxicants, has been nullified by hadees which forbids all intoxicants. Then it would be purely due to ignorance. As quran it self forbids it in later revelation.
Read the very first ayat of sura baqra, it says
Alif Lam Mim. {1} This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil). {2}
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
Peace All
I'm sorry but this conversation is hilarious! Everyone is right! the key to unlock the door to understanding is semantics. Allahumasta'an.
The words negate, nullify, abrogate etc have to be understood with their sister terminologies which are clarify, contextualise, marginalise, parameter and elaboration.
Often arguments have exception clauses. These are seen as 'having said this', 'but', 'also', 'and' and 'to elaborate' are such conjunctives that actually dismiss the general statement for the specific scenario. Our beloved prophet Muhammad (SAW) was the one who clarified the Qur'an.
To pick on a brilliant analogy given by Sheikh Hamza Yusuf recently, is that the Qur'an is sheer Knowledge, it is refracted by different minds in different ways. The way we need to understand it is in accordance to the Prophet Muhammad (SAW).
Pork is haram, but the penalty of eating it is not uniform for different situations. Being fed it with force is one example given in the Qur'an, however, there are other situations where eating it becomes necessary without it being force fed. Are all such things listed in the Qur'an?
If not to bring an example of Jesus (AS) from the New Testament. His words seem clear that he (AS) is abrogating the 'eye for an eye' ruling for 'turn the other cheek' ruling. However, closer inspection renders exaclty what the Qur'an states, that 'eye for an eye' is the limit of the ruling, to forgive is the better option.
In the same way, the leader who is corrupt will be responsible and no blame is on the people as long as they are strict to the guidance and repel evil. The clarification is that prevention of evil is necessary. This in view with the injunction to appoint a group amongst the people to enjoin good and forbid evil is one that the whole populous is respnsible for. The people to prevent the evil in the leader must therefore be such an elite group, the failing of which will deem the whole populous responsible.
Okay this seems like a clarification and not an abrogation, but I say that the two terms are actually essentially equivalent. Clarification provides context which removes the general nature of the initial argument. The generality of the ayat is therefore abrogated in place of the specifc condition that is being alluded to by the prophet Muhammad (SAW).
There are no clear cut dismisals of the Quranic injunctions which is why I think the word abrogate should be replaced by the term, 'abrogation of generality'.
Allah forgive me for my mistakes.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
Dear Brother: All Those Hadiths which does not telly Quran in meaning and action, are Falls. Being Muslim wee should follow only those Hadith which give direct or indirect meaning of the Quran Verse.
There are alot hadith where Hadith say some thing and Quran says some thing else..
ALLAH HAM SAB KA HAMI WA NASIR HO
In one of previous discussion one of the esteemed member of this forum (Mr. Khanbabax) that Mutawatir Hadith can supercede an Ayah of Holy Quran. Here is his exact quote:
I want this idea very disturbing that somebody is putting a Hadith above Holy Quran. I want to know what the other members of this forum think about it. Please share your ideas.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
Some hadiths which are mutawatir show that certain things were abrogated from the Qur'an (as in their meaning but not the reading of it).
Another example:
Now we see that Hazrat Abu Bakr Siddiq(ra) took the statement of Rasul(saw) over the literal meaning of the ayat. People used that ayat to show that if you are on the Straight Path then it is not necessary for you to preach virtue and forbid vice, but Hazrat Abu Bakar refuted this by the saying of the Prophet s.a.w.
I don't see a contradiction between the two. The Quran is saying that look out for your own soul, those who do evil can't hurt you in the end. The Hadith is saying, in fact, if you don't stand up to an oppressor, you're doing something that's bad (i.e. that ayat is not an excuse to be apathetic, and is not in fact a command to not get involved in fights against oppression). This doesn't seem to be an example of abrogation, but clarification.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran’s Ayats
Br. Khanbabax, there are many questions here which you have side stepped especially the one where Code_Red presented the verse from Surah Nisa. Br, you should seriously ponder about what are stating here.
Mutawatir is just a classification of hadith meaning that it has been narrated by many people originating from different sources (ofcourse all leading to the Prophet SAW) but to many ashaba. However the hadith still needs to be understood in the light of Quran. Being mutawatir does not imply that it is something new that is not in the Quran.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
Further proof on the insanity of salafis.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
Imam Abu Bakar al-Jassas says:
Hanafis, Shaafis and Malikis, allowed the abrogation of the Sunnah by the Qur'an and vice verse...but they could not be abrogated by khabr al-wahid.
He says:
"Naskh is the declaration of the time of the particular ruling which we thought would remain for ever, but the second ruling made it clear that the time of the ruling was for a certain period and it was now no longer valid."
The ayat "we bring better or like thereof" God meant to state that He would make a ruling superior to the first in the sense of its being easier to perform, or richer in terms of reward.
The *naskh *implied that the later command abrogated the earlier. Sarakhsi says: "The contradiction between the sources is impossible, since this would mean Divine fallibility; in actuality the contradiction is created by our human inability to estimate correctly the date of the texts. Once this has been done, however, the later abrogates the earlier."
Usu1 al-Jassas, fol. 152a.
Ghazzali, Mustafa *(2 vols.), Bulaq, 1322/1904, vol. 2, p. 125. Also see Tabari's *Tafsir on al-Qur'an, II:106.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
Slowly and steadily you actually trying to prove yourself wrong. Well good for you.
But any knowledgeable Arabic speaking guy will know the ayat 2:106 you are talking about and what it means, Allaah meant wrt to Quran now please stop supporting you ego and just follow what Quran states.
For atleast once try to understand the Quran for your sake rato mat jaise hamare deshon mein hota hain, and the stage we are today in sub continent is worst.
Hadith is worshipped and Quran is not followed. Thats why i call them illetrates not all but majority. They know the complete Quran but only to read and write but not understand tahts why we are lacking behind today like fools.
Illetracy levels are high because of chaps around who protect the hadith and follow less, and same wrt Quran.
People fail to understand the first 3 centuries the Muslims ruled was because they followed the Quran as the core belief, brought the theory into practical ans showed us.
Well what can we expect from sub continent heroes, who are still lacking rationality and thinking power. I condemn the mullah and those innocent citizens of Islam who have deviated largely.
Well, aap apni copy paste chaloo rakhna aur main aur sab guppies dekhte rahenge. Till you can prove Code_Red wrong, regardign the verse you provided as evidence. I wanna see until what extent you can go to support this cause.
Well picocio, pysah is explained its clarification and not abrogation. I have no base to fight here, but please use your own logic and think, stop copy pasting.
If anyone wants to can get stuff fron any internet and do as you do, but we are not intereseted, as Quran is enough for your rebuttal.
Believe me as one of my friends said leave alone these people even if we prove via the Quran the basis of the religion but still they value hadith more then the quran.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
^^
I follow the view of the jurists, Hanafi, Shafi, Maliki as mentioned by Imam Abu Bakkar al Jassas. As it was understood by the Sahabas during the time of Prophet s.a.w. This is enough proof for me.
Now I am still waiting for a view of any senior Sunni jurists who said this principle is wrong. (not my or your understand).
And we will take it from there.
And since you dont know, Imam Abu Hanifa, Imam Muhammed, Imam Abu Yusuf, Imam Malik, Imam Qurtubi etc were not from the sub-Continent, as it looks like you have something personal against scholars from there. Basically you have this western mentality that scholars from the last 1400 years were wrong and didnt understand Quran and now we will correct them by reading the online translation of the Quran. This is sign of the qiyamat, as Prophet s.a.w mentioned, laymen would start to give fatwas and leave the scholars. They will also criticise the early generations.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
Tum to hanafi hon and you follow the jurist of Shafi and Maliki now this is new.
I remember in one of the posts you stating.
Tipu sultan a tru hanafi and sunni, and pelting stones on barelvis. In fact in one of the other threads you copy pasted even if there is no authenticity and goes agains our own madhab we have to follow Hanafism.
Ami i right or wrong, now, i what have I got to say. Code_Red is provided with ayat explain that one please. Learn from the sahabas and from Prophet good, as if we are learing from ayre gayre.
Well, go on wait for the sunni jurist. Code_Red yeh jawab aap ab JD mein sunle na, Insha Allaah atleast JD pehle to dua karoonga mujhe JD ke interview round tak to chance mil jaye kyun ki screeing mein hi out ho jayoong.
Even if i get a chance then the seerat which i have to cross i hope i can get, 10 watts bulb also i will try to manage. But now i disbelief hadith can supercede the Quran, now from supercede slowly its come down to abrogate chalo bhai wait karte hain.
Believe me if it was an hadith issue i wouldnt have even bothered, to bicker around with since its the Quran i am here and wait until what extent you will go to protect yourself. Yahan par bhi sunni kabhi kabhi muslim bhi kehdo jitna fakr Sunni, Hanafi se hain itna Muslim ke liye kardo.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
Believe me as one of my friends said leave alone these people even if we prove via the Quran the basis of the religion but still they value hadith more then the quran.
I would suggest you to read all my posts again since you have not graspt anything I have said.
1. Anything Prophet s.a.w says is also wahi.
2. Only mutawatir can abrogate an ayat of the Quran as proved by Imam Abu Bakkar al Jassas using the ayat of the Quran.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
Salamvalekum
Aur batao, what more let see how far you can go just waiting, of course i havent grasped i told you i am not as educated as you are. Go ahead, go ahead lage raho.
Code_Red aur aapka verse jo hain wo bhi grasp karlo kabhi kabhi.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
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Tum to hanafi hon and you follow the jurist of Shafi and Maliki now this is new.
I remember in one of the posts you stating.
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Again you are not reading my posts, we are Hanafi where there is difference of the scholars but in this case Hanafi, Shafi, Maliki agrees no this principle. I you read my posts clearly, this way I wont have to retype.
Also Imam Muhammed, Imam Abu Yusuf and Imam al-Qurtube were Hanafis.
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Ami i right or wrong, now, i what have I got to say. Code_Red is provided with ayat explain that one please. Learn from the sahabas and from Prophet good, as if we are learing from ayre gayre.
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Yes, learn from the Sahabas and their students as they also acted on the hadees that abrogated the ayat of the Quran. Actions speak louder than words.
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Even if i get a chance then the seerat which i have to cross i hope i can get, 10 watts bulb also i will try to manage. But now i disbelief hadith can supercede the Quran, now from supercede slowly its come down to abrogate chalo bhai wait karte hain.
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Supercede and naskh is used by the scholars but it means same thing. There is no difference between the two words.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
Salamvalekum
Aur batao, what more let see how far you can go just waiting, of course i havent grasped i told you i am not as educated as you are. Go ahead, go ahead lage raho.
Code_Red aur aapka verse jo hain wo bhi grasp karlo kabhi kabhi.
I have proved my point, but if anyone refuses to accept out of zid, there is nothing you can do.
And also the ayat Code_Red quoted has nothing to do with what I posted, unless you can show me from a scholar that its other wise (a musaffir). As I mentioned earlier I dont take the views of laymen. This is same Salafi mentality that all the scholars of past were wrong, they couldnt understand basic verses of the Quran, but we can understand the same just by reading the online translations.
Also if you can disprove this principle by quoting some senior Sunni jurists, then we will see. For me their view is enough.
Salam.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
I have proved my point, but if anyone refuses to accept out of zid, there is nothing you can do.
Khanbabax: You haven't proven anything at all because you have nothing to prove. It is, unfortunately, only you that is holding on to a dangerous zid.
My Allah show us all the right path. Amen.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran’s Ayats
Peace All
It is important to note that earlier scholars used the word “naskh” (“abrogation”) in a much broader sense than it is generally understood today. Any aspect of change in a particular regulation - whether by addition or cancelation or specification or other form of modification - would be described as naskh. It is crucial to bear this in mind when considering classical scholarly discussions of naskh.
http://webpages.marshall.edu/~laher1/naskh.html
Please leave Khanbabax alone. He is not arguing without a basis. These matters as he has stated should be referred to the scholars. The reason why muttawatir has been given greater status of ahad transmission is because it becomes statistically improbable of being a false statement.
The Qur’an itself mentions that Allah (SWT) can abrogate what He reveals and we all believe that Muhammad (SAW) never speaks from himself. The multiple chained transmission means we should have no doubt as to the words that were uttered were from the holy Prophet Muhammad (SAW). These are techniques that we rely on to determine the past. If we resort to putting our own understandings of a given saying before how the reports were understood by the Salaf then we are being just as egotistical.
Now the term naskh as a myriad of definitions. Not all types of naskh are 180 degree heel turns of arguments. Some naskh situations are merely additions or clarifications of rulings.
Now let’s analyse the example bro. Khanbabax has provided. The ayat says that for the ruler doing evil the people will not be accountable but the hadith says that the people who do not prevent the evil will be accountable. Can you see that this seem like clear abrogation. The word in English is not ideal.
This is infact clarification.
The general case in the ayat refers to the fact that those doing evil will be punished and not those who are made to do evil.
The specific case is from the hadith that those who do not prevent an evil are themselves doing an evil and therefore fall into the above category also.
This is a classic ‘Having said that’ situation. It is not a 100% wipe clean abrogation.
Now please stop arguing.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
Brother psyah i will leave everyone alone and I hope i am not arguing but rather looking for some information.
1) We have to look into this case deeply as pointed out the one who comes up with an argument usually is backed with evidence agreed.
2) For me evidence has to be from Quran and Sunnah, as your signature sign.
3) For the past 1400 years the Shariah law is
Quran follwoed by Sunnah/Hadith and then Rulings of the Muslim scholars ijma, ijthihad and qiyas these are broadly covered.
I might be wrong, but if i am wrong then what is right?Thats the reason I am here here asking for some answers which befit a common logic as we have to agree Quran is a more authentic source (Word of Allaah) and its the start of shariah in Islam and we muslims believe in it.
This is followed by Hadith as the second source for Islam and always after the Quran. So accordign to me Quran can abrogate the hadith and not the other way round no way.
Regarding the evil i can surely provide an eg. of surah 3:110 in a micro sense. That believers forbid the evil and do the good. Now forbid the evil in all sense.
Now, again your perspective if taken would be a huge issue. I am here brother waiting for your rebuttal Al Hamdullillaah as usual your analysis is fair enough.
I hope we come to a common point at the end of this discussion Insha Allaah.