Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

khanbabax- You should ponder deeply as what is the consequences of such a bielief

It means that you are saying that there was a mistake quranic verse thus the hadees corrected it. right ? :)

^ whole ummah is not following this absurd claim, naaozbillah.

Hadees cannot cancel out quranic ayat whatsoever.

Regarding your first example, you and mufti Muhammad ibn Adam need to understand, some fundamental concepts regarding quranic injunctions and revelations.

I will explain more in next post.

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

here the part of quoted text in post # 9

[quote]

In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,

The Qur’an always comes before the sunnah, as the sunnah is the commentary and the explanation of the Qur’an. Allah Most High says to His Messenger (Allah bless him & give him peace):

“So that you explain to the people what has been revealed to them.” (Surah al-Nahl, 44)

Also the famous Hadith of Mu’adh (Allah be pleased with him) when he said: “I will judge and make decisions according to the Qur’an and if I don't find a ruling in the Qur’an, I will turn to the sunnah”, is an example of this.

However, the Sunnah at times restricts the broad and general meaning of a particular word of the Qur’an. Similarly, it explains the ambiguous term by which the meaning intended by Allah Almighty is known. There are many examples for this.
....
[/quote]

^^ uptil here it is alright. Hadees and sunnah is the primary source for understanding quran

[quote]

Also according to the majority of the scholars (jumhur), a ruling of the Qur’an can be nullified by the Sunnah, as whatever the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) says is from Allah (Surah al-Najm,v4).

Example for this is the Hadith which says “Wasiyya (bequest) is not permissible for an heir (inheritor). This cancels out the verse of the Qur’an which indicates that Wasiyyat is prescribed for parents (al-Baqara, v.180).

[/quote]

One or two scholars does not constitute 'jamhor'. Secondly quran is the the word of God and prvovided absolute protection by him (it is part of faith) collection of hadees is a human efforts and is prone to mistake,errors ommisions... Mut'watar hadees is no exception either.

Regarding your example, Its is common rule that any quranic command can be ammended by any other quranic verse which is revealed later. For instance prohibition of intoxicants etc.

you and mufti sahab needed to read the quran where Allah himself explains the matter of interitence in sura nisa, chapter 4 where complete proportion of share for heirs is given in detail

[quote]

Allah enjoins you concerning your children:
The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females;
then if they are more than two females, they shall have two-thirds of what the deceased has left, and if there is one, she shall have the half;
and as for his parents, each of them shall have the sixth of what he has left if he has a child, **
*but if he has no child and (only) his two parents inherit him, *
*then his mother shall have the third; but if he has brothers, *
*then his mother shall have the sixth after (the payment of) a bequest he may have bequeathed or a debt; *
**your parents and your children, you know not which of them is the nearer to you in usefulness; this is an ordinance from Allah:

Surely Allah is Knowing, Wise. {4:11}

[/quote]

You can see the exact proportions of share for near kins has been ordained in this ayat and the next few ayaat. Parents are part of it. This verse of quran takes away the right (which was precviously granted in ayat 2:180).So no bequest for parents now, as Allah himself has defined their share.

So it is not the hadees which supercede quran, it is another quranic ayat which provide guidance in this mater

Also a person is allowed, a bequest (at most) one third of his property/wealth to anyone who is not mentioned in the list legal heirs in islam. Quran encourages muslim to share wealth with those relatives and unrelated poor orphans too. (4:8)

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran’s Ayats

:salam:

I was about to quote this ayat in my response to Br. Khanbabax however you got to it first. JAK, your knowledge is good brother.

I have seen a lot of confusion like this because the time period in which a Sunnah was established is often not known relative to the Quranic revelation.

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

Out of curiosity, is there a complete list of the passages that have been abrogated?

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

Meaning more examples?

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

So now mullahs are even telling us which parts of the Quran to follow and which parts not to follow?

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

L0L, brother, did you read tafseer, usul-e-tafseer from any scholar?Mufti ibn Adam is a Mufti and he knows what he is talking about. This has been the view of the Sahabas, and tabieen and jamhoor uptil now. This is enough said. You can refer to your local scholars.

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

No, I mean a complete list...

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

Nope, sorry, I dont have it with me. If I get more examples, I shall post or you can refer to your local scholars. Not like there is a big list of these, only on certain issues this has happened.

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

I can't believe I'm even reading all this.

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

Kis nay read karnay ko bola? Tumhari samaj say bahir hain aisi batain.

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

i have heard and real a lot about this masala and i am with khanbabax

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

No Doubt Mufti Ibn-e-Adam is a Mufti, and may be one of the best .. but at the end of the day he is Human who can make mistakes and who can give wrong judgements as well and like Prophets he is not "secured" . Thats why every thing is benchmarked with Quran, no matter who it is, no matter what they says, if it is against or in contradiction to quran it will considered unislamic.

accusing that The Prophet(PBUH) can go against the word of Quran is making his character and Quran doubtful. which can be the agenda of the one who are against the purity of the divine book but not of those who have believe that nothing about this universe mentioned in Quran is wrong and anyone saying so may have limited knowledge and/or bad intentions

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

[quote]
No Doubt Mufti Ibn-e-Adam is a Mufti, and may be one of the best .. but at the end of the day he is Human who can make mistakes and who can give wrong judgements as well and like Prophets he is not "secured" . Thats why every thing is benchmarked with Quran, no matter who it is, no matter what they says, if it is against or in contradiction to quran it will considered unislamic.
[/quote]

If it was the view of one scholar, then you can say it can be wrong. Its the view of the jamhoor, and also as you can see from the examples, even Sahabas practiced on this during the time of Prophet s.a.w. Refer to any Sunni scholar and you will most like get the same answer. So all the scholars are wrong and we will correct them now?

And I would like you to bring me work of some senior Sunni scholar who has refuted this principle (not my or your view).

Also can you show me from the Quran and only the Quran (your principle) where is says mutawatir ahadees cant supercede an ayat of the Quran.

[quote]
accusing that The Prophet(PBUH) can go against the word of Quran is making his character and Quran doubtful. which can be the agenda of the one who are against the purity of the divine book but not of those who have believe that nothing about this universe mentioned in Quran is wrong and anyone saying so may have limited knowledge and/or bad intentions
[/quote]

People who are denying his principle are unintentionally implying that Prophet s.a.w and the Sahabas went against the Quran.

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

Has no one ever taught you that the use of the term "tumhari" is very informal and should not be used with a na-mehram mohtarma that could be old enough to be your mom?

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

[quote]

If it was the view of one scholar, then you can say it can be wrong. Its the view of the jamhoor, and also as you can see from the examples, even Sahabas practiced on this during the time of Prophet s.a.w. Refer to any Sunni scholar and you will most like get the same answer. So all the scholars are wrong and we will correct them now?

And I would like you to bring me work of some senior Sunni scholar who has refuted this principle (not my or your view).

Also can you show me from the Quran and only the Quran (your principle) where is says mutawatir ahadees cant supercede an ayat of the Quran.

[/quote]

There are million people on this earth who says that Allah Have a Son, should i agree with them? come on man! The sunni scholars who are quoting this kind of CRAP are the one who created division in Islam. and yes we need correct if bunch of scholars have said some thing like that... because in a way they are denying the very first aya of sura-e-Baqra which says," this is the book without any fault..."

Give me the example where Prohpet (PBUH) and Khulfa-e-Rashideen (RZA) practicsed anything which against or in contradiction of Quran.
( have u red sura-e-Anfaal and the tafseer of the same sura?)

Have u ever heard of Illama ibn-e-Jozi and his prinples of Hadees...( please refer to them, he was well-known Scholar of Ahl-e-Sunna wal Jamaat, atleast he is 100 times better than the mufti u are refereing to)

Now u are saying that i should bring an aya from quran which says that mutawatir hadees can be wrong.. my brother, very first aya ( after Alif, lam, Meem) which says "this book have no fault..", now u are saying that some group or bunch of scholars says that a mutawatir hadees is better than quran means the very first aya is somehow wrong ( u have not used this words but this is what u meant by superceding qurani ayat by a hadees).

Sahi-Bukhari is the most authenticate book of Ahadees ( from where all the mutawatir ahadees has came ) Have u ever red the Preface of Sahi-Bukhari, i suggest u read it and see what Imam Bukhari has to say about his collection...

2ndly it is well known that Sahi Bukhari is said to be the best book of ahadees, yet no body ever said that it have no flaws not even the writer ( Imam Bukhari) said so...

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran’s Ayats

:salam:

I am waiting for my anwer i think i did not waste time writing it down for the on seekers to but for an answer from you, and i stand for it if you can provide an answer that that that i hope you get my drift

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

[QUOTE]
There are million people on this earth who says that Allah Have a Son, should i agree with them? come on man!
[/QUOTE]

So you are comparing the Sahabas and jurists with Christians? SubhanAllah!!

[QUOTE]
The sunni scholars who are quoting this kind of CRAP are the one who created division in Islam. and yes we need correct if bunch of scholars have said some thing like that... because in a way they are denying the very first aya of sura-e-Baqra which says," this is the book without any fault..."
[/QUOTE]

All fitnas and sects start when people leave the expert and use their own intellect. And this ayat has nothing to do with the topic.

[QUOTE]

Give me the example where Prohpet (PBUH) and Khulfa-e-Rashideen (RZA) practicsed anything which against or in contradiction of Quran.
( have u red sura-e-Anfaal and the tafseer of the same sura?)

[/QUOTE]

Also not relevent here, since this principle is not against the Quran. And I have gave two examples where Sahabas during the time of Prophet s.a.w acted on this hadees which superceded ayat of the Quran.

[QUOTE]
Have u ever heard of Illama ibn-e-Jozi and his prinples of Hadees...( please refer to them, he was well-known Scholar of Ahl-e-Sunna wal Jamaat, atleast he is 100 times better than the mufti u are refereing to)
[/QUOTE]

Also not relevent here unless you can quote him saying that he didint believe in this principle. Imam Abu Yusuf and Imam Qurtubi were higher jurists tham him.

[QUOTE]
Now u are saying that i should bring an aya from quran which says that mutawatir hadees can be wrong..
[/QUOTE]

Yes bring me from Quran where it says mutawatir cant supercede an ayat of the Quran. Please dont quote ayats about the protection of the Quran, thats not the topic here.

[QUOTE]
Sahi-Bukhari is the most authenticate book of Ahadees ( from where all the mutawatir ahadees has came ) Have u ever red the Preface of Sahi-Bukhari, i suggest u read it and see what Imam Bukhari has to say about his collection...
[/QUOTE]

Again I think you are not aware of what mutawatir means. Mutawaitr is when a hadees on same topic was related by many people and can be found in different books of hadees (not just Bukhari).

[QUOTE]

2ndly it is well known that Sahi Bukhari is said to be the best book of ahadees, yet no body ever said that it have no flaws not even the writer ( Imam Bukhari) said so

[/QUOTE]

Please stick to the topic, we are not talking about Bukhari but issue of mutawatir.

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

[QUOTE]

Brother you are being offended cool down. I have been explicit in my words.
You agree that Sahabas acted upon the Prophet, i hope you agree.
Now did the Jurists follow sahabas or the Prophet ofcourse the Prophet.
Now who do we follow Sahabas, Jurists or the Prophet. Answer is Prophet again, there is no second thought to it.

[/QUOTE]

I am sorry but this thinking of yours is very dangerous. You are implying that following Sahabas is something differetnt from following the Prophet s.a.w. Following the Sahabas and their students (jurists) is infact following the Prophet s.a.w.

[QUOTE]

Now with this premise, i am kindly requesting you to provide me with one explicit statement by the Prophet, i gave you a leeway and made your options easy. But now i am strictly asking you to adhere to Prophetic statement.
Leave alone jurists, sahabas and others now only provide me evidence from the Prophet.

[/QUOTE]

How many times do I h ave to repeat. The two examples I gave were from the time of Prophet s.a.w and He was ok with it. This is proof enough.

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

Some hadiths which are mutawatir show that certain things were abrogated from the Qur'an (as in their meaning but not the reading of it).

Another example:

[QUOTE]

Abu Bakr As-Siddiq (May Allah bepleased with him) reported: "O you people! You recite this Verse: `O you who believe! Take care of your ownselves. If you follow the (right) guidance [and enjoin what is right (Islamic Monotheism and all that Islam orders one to do) and forbid what is wrong (polytheism, disbelief and all that Islam has forbidden)] no hurt can come to you from those who are in error.'(5:105) But I have heard Messenger of Allah (PBUH) saying: "When people see an oppressor but do not prevent him from (doing evil), it is likely that Allah will punish them all.''
[Abu Dawud and At-Tirmidhi].

[/QUOTE]

Now we see that Hazrat Abu Bakr Siddiq(ra) took the statement of Rasul(saw) over the literal meaning of the ayat. People used that ayat to show that if you are on the Straight Path then it is not necessary for you to preach virtue and forbid vice, but Hazrat Abu Bakar refuted this by the saying of the Prophet s.a.w.