Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

Peace Bro. SlaveofAllaah

InshaAllah we shall do this in stages then we will recap. I am not rebutting what you have said just going to ask a few questions.

Firstly: It is true that the Qur'an is the highest source used for a ruling, then we have Sunnah then we have ijma of scholars then we have opinion of one scholar. This I believe is the methodology of Imam bin Hanbal I read this in a book written by Abu Amina Bilal Philips.

My question is two fold:

1) What is the condition for going to the Sunnah for a ruling?
a) If relevant text is not found in the Qur'an
b) If relevant text is found in the Qur'an but also found in the Sunnah
c) Only a)
d) A combination of a) or b) depending

2) What if the hadith is a clarification of the ayat, but the ayat SEEMS to be in contradiction with the hadith? Do we:

a) Reject the hadith
b) Reject the ayat
c) Question ourselves that we may have misunderstood the ayat
d) Study the ruling on the hadith to get more information i.e. the context, the transmission chain, the commentary of meaning and reliability by the scholars about that hadith.

Do we do only a? Or only b? Or perhaps we can start off by doing c and then d?

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

[quote]

I might be wrong, but if i am wrong then what is right?Thats the reason I am here here asking for some answers which befit a common logic as we have to agree Quran is a more authentic source (Word of Allaah) and its the start of shariah in Islam and we muslims believe in it.

[/quote]

Brother, bo you agree that there are 2 types of revelation? Recited and non-recited. Mutawatir ahadees come from non-recited one. So they are also from Allah and not from Prophet s.a.w.

[quote]
This is followed by Hadith as the second source for Islam and always after the Quran. So accordign to me Quran can abrogate the hadith and not the other way round no way.
[/quote]

Please prove from Quran and Hadees where it says only Quran and abrogate the Quran and Mutawatir ahadees of Prophet s.a.w cant.

Now my question is that are you willing to say that Sahabas, and their followers and all the jurists up tp this day were in error about this principle?

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

[quote]
Peace Bro. SlaveofAllaah
[/quote]

Walekum salam to you too bro psyah.

[quote]

InshaAllah we shall do this in stages then we will recap. I am not rebutting what you have said just going to ask a few questions.

[/quote]

Insha Allaah brother sure with stages, and then we will summarise in the end so that we can come together on a common point. No problem brother you can reply to my posts later.

But i feel, questions should be asked both the sides (otherwise one of them will be cornered) and let the onlookers know whats happening. Hopefully we are not biased and INsha Allaah this is for the sake of Allaah.

Brother before to my rebuttal it would really kind of you also to read my post #42 in this very thread and i would appreciate if you can also reply to that.

[quote]

Firstly: It is true that the Qur'an is the highest source used for a ruling, then we have Sunnah then we have ijma of scholars then we have opinion of one scholar. This I believe is the methodology of Imam bin Hanbal I read this in a book written by Abu Amina Bilal Philips.

[/quote]

Regarding Quran is the highest source you and I agree, Al hamdullillaah. Yes agreed then its the sunnah and then ijma, qiyas and ijtihad until here we completely agree.

With respect to your request I hope you are referring to Evolution of Fiqh by Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips correct me if I am wrong. Out of topic he is a wonderful scholar Masha Allaah

[quote]

My question is two fold:

[/quote]

Sure i will try to do my best to remain unbiased, and answer for the sake of Allaah.

[quote]

1) What is the condition for going to the Sunnah for a ruling?
a) If relevant text is not found in the Qur'an
b) If relevant text is found in the Qur'an but also found in the Sunnah
c) Only a)
d) A combination of a) or b) depending

[/quote]

I will answer your questions in the sequence you have aforementioned.
a) Agreed, i would love to quote an eg thats the method of praying.
b) Yes when relevant text is found in the Quran and Sunnah then al hamdullillah the first point is try to find the authenticity of the hadith. If not reject it.
c) Absolutely yes because hajj and praying cannot be done without the prophetic tradition.
d) Combination of both now this makes no senses how can it be found in the quran as well as not found so doesnt make sense. Either its present in the Quran or its not.
OK if its a or b then its already mentioned.

[quote]

2) What if the hadith is a clarification of the ayat, but the ayat SEEMS to be in contradiction with the hadith? Do we:

a) Reject the hadith
b) Reject the ayat
c) Question ourselves that we may have misunderstood the ayat
d) Study the ruling on the hadith to get more information i.e. the context, the transmission chain, the commentary of meaning and reliability by the scholars about that hadith.

Do we do only a? Or only b? Or perhaps we can start off by doing c and then d?

[/quote]

As above will answer in a sequence

a) and b) together -Reject the hadith because i doubt the authenticity of the hadith in question. Goes against the science of hadith which have been designed and defined by the early scholars.
Not to forget though the hadith is not contradicting wrt Quran the authenticity is still analysed as per the definition of the early scholars.

c) Exactly first try to read through the Quran try to connect the verses above and below, if not possible try to go through the tafsir to find the reason of this revelation. Try to also contemplate with respect to verses above and below are they Makki or Medanite verses.
I have written a thread regarding Understanding of Quran, and i have mentioned this.

d) I have already mentioned this point point one above.

Ok fine regarding the last part of your question, if hadith goes against the Quran then reject the hadith. Because this would mean the complete science of hadith as prescribed by the earlier scholars would be wrong. I will make my point clear any hadith going against the Quran should be rejected because no sahih hadith can contradict the Quran.

Thanks brother eagerly waiting for your reply for this post and if possible for my post #42 (More then questioning its going to be more about rebutall and references). Because i would love someone to answer that.

Salamvalekum,

Brother in faith.

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

Peace again Bro. SlaveofAllaah

When I wrote combination (admittedly a bad choice of word) I meant first look at point b) then a) as it is nearly impossible to know whether something is in hadith unless we research it. So even if it is found in the Qur'an ... and may or may not be in hadith should we make a ruling based on Qur'an alone or should we study the hadith extensively for 'clarification' before we try to pose a ruling? You don't need to answer this, because I think you have made it clear in your words that you agree with my position on this, which is:

For any matter to be looked into all material from the past should be collected together, this is all the ayats, all the hadith and even the commentaries and previous ijtihad rulings. Then when all are considered together the prioritisation comes in the order that we have mentioned earlier.

My main point to the second question I think I have not adequately put to you. This is that ... do you agree or disagree that the Qur'an upon textual value can be misunderstood, i.e. it is possible for us to misunderstand the Qur'an? If so, then by rejecting the hadith because we have understood it to 'contradict' a misunderstood ayat, is this fair?

Also, what do you think about 'situation specific' or 'response based' ayaat? Can there be a hadith which is about the same topic but different to it because the conditions are different that surround that topic?

I have read your post #42 again more carefully. I don't believe in slam dunks, just guidance inshaAllah. That I pray for. You say that:

"1) We know Quran can abrogate the Quran but (it can) not (be abrogated by) hadith, no where in the Quran its mentioned that mutawatir hadith can supercede the Quran because if its was given Allaah would have surely spoken about it in the Quran."

bracketted terms added for clarification.<<<

How do we KNOW Qur'an can abrogate the Qur'an? I know it's a simple question it warrants a simple answer ... perhaps it's not so simple!

Why does it need to be mentioned in the Qur'an that mutawatir hadith or otherwise Hadith Qudsi, can supercede the Qur'an? Then you say "if it was then surely Allaah would ..." I'm not in a position to say what Allah would or would not say, please clarify why you think 'Allaah would do anything our intellects tells us what we think should be the case?'

Now I'm not saying there are abrogations from hadith of ayaat, because I have seen neither adequate refutation nor support for these arguments. I'm just trying to be fair to the discussion at hand. There is more but this is enough for now.

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

[QUOTE]

Peace again Bro. SlaveofAllaah

When I wrote combination (admittedly a bad choice of word) I meant first look at point b) then a) as it is nearly impossible to know whether something is in hadith unless we research it. So even if it is found in the Qur'an ... and may or may not be in hadith should we make a ruling based on Qur'an alone or should we study the hadith extensively for 'clarification' before we try to pose a ruling? You don't need to answer this, because I think you have made it clear in your words that you agree with my position on this, which is:

For any matter to be looked into all material from the past should be collected together, this is all the ayats, all the hadith and even the commentaries and previous ijtihad rulings. Then when all are considered together the prioritisation comes in the order that we have mentioned earlier.

[/QUOTE]

Since we have agreed on the above point, i think so this can be left alone. Hamdullillaah this will be summarised later.

[QUOTE]

My main point to the second question I think I have not adequately put to you. This is that ... do you agree or disagree that the Qur'an upon textual value can be misunderstood, i.e. it is possible for us to misunderstand the Qur'an? If so, then by rejecting the hadith because we have understood it to 'contradict' a misunderstood ayat, is this fair?

[/QUOTE]

Yes brother, completely agree with you like I earlier said Understanding the Quran, i have written a small article wrt this.
Here i dont take hadith into consideration now, but when i misunderstood 46:v15 (hopefully this is right) i had to read the hadith for better clarification because it was against my rational. So i think your point and my point we agree on that.

[QUOTE]

Also, what do you think about 'situation specific' or 'response based' ayaat? Can there be a hadith which is about the same topic but different to it because the conditions are different that surround that topic?

[/QUOTE]

Brother yes i agree with you because they are ayah in the Quran which were situational specific and some are timeless also.
Because at the time when our religion spread like wild fire and was entrenched into different cultures ijtihads had to be done from Quran and Hadith.

Because the questions raised were unique, and had to answered otherwise it would have been calamity to the religion. Out of topic this is were i feel Abu Hanifa did a remarkable job May Allaah have mercy on this great scholar.

I feel you aforementioned point and my explanation are the same.

[QUOTE]

I have read your post #42 again more carefully. I don't believe in slam dunks, just guidance inshaAllah. That I pray for. You say that:

[/QUOTE]

Agreed regarding the slam dunks but needed at times, its necessary to become angry/display our wrath at times.

[QUOTE]

"1) We know Quran can abrogate the Quran but (it can) not (be abrogated by) hadith, no where in the Quran its mentioned that mutawatir hadith can supercede the Quran because if its was given Allaah would have surely spoken about it in the Quran."

bracketted terms added for clarification.<<<

How do we KNOW Qur'an can abrogate the Qur'an? I know it's a simple question it warrants a simple answer ... perhaps it's not so simple!

[/QUOTE]

Brother, basically when we are doing any research we always analyse the most authenticated source, followed by the lesser ones. I hope you agree with me on this.
But here I am talking about Quran the word of Allaah vis-a-vis Hadith. Now like we have agreed upon Quran is the primary source and more authentic even to the Muslim Ummah wrt Quran they are less contradictions and cults, sects have formed more because of Hadith.

Now here is were my earlier discussion about hadith is conspicous. We as ummah have granted umpteen no. of hadeeth the status that these our Prophet's words, though these hadith were derived for cultural purpose later became and were embedded into Prophetic hadith.We know its a difficult task today but Al Hamdullillaah the early scholars have done a great job.

Now regarding abrogation let me quote from my memore 2:106, 22:54 they are two more verses which have word 'nansakh' mentioned in it. But scholars and tranlators equally have differentiated, even the shia's and sunni differentiate on the word.

So nansakh in proper language of Arabic has various meanings to copy, to record, to abrogate. Now let take a view of a few scholars (amongst the sunnis) its abrogation but few sunni, and majore shia scholars (say its recorded)
But again, we have point on hand and like to refer to Surah 18v27, i am not putting it across here coz this is a long rebuttal.

[QUOTE]

Why does it need to be mentioned in the Qur'an that mutawatir hadith or otherwise Hadith Qudsi, can supercede the Qur'an? Then you say "if it was then surely Allaah would ..." I'm not in a position to say what Allah would or would not say, please clarify why you think 'Allaah would do anything our intellects tells us what we think should be the case?'

[/QUOTE]

I would sure have questioned the above point (in bold) to you brother, but you seem to be a master of emotional intelligence:D .

With word 'anything', these are not my words and for sure Allaah is got the Quran for us not wrt individuals intellect its different, so Quran for everyone would a issue which is answered wrt no. of religions, sects available today because of intellect.
I personally feel its because of our intellect (intellect here i mean our own opinion and thinking), and not Allaah's knowledge we are facing the problem of sects/cults.

The other reason why I also mentioned that Allaah would have surely told us is because of the verse 5:3 in broader sense. The other reasons is also because the Sahaba's always concentrated moer on the Quran (ofcourse hadith was'nt needed much as they saw the Prophet and lived with him) But Umar, Ali (rad) all had the same.

One more you missed out the last part of post #42, the hadith of the Prophet the best discourse is book of Allaah. My knowledge would rather say then Allaah had deficieny in him (naozbillaah) because this was mentioned or is it we humans are of better intellectual then Allaah to interpolate the Quran.
Remember Hadith is always been in question (otherwise the scholars woudnt have define the science of hadith) more then the Quran,

[QUOTE]

Now I'm not saying there are abrogations from hadith of ayaat, because I have seen neither adequate refutation nor support for these arguments. I'm just trying to be fair to the discussion at hand. There is more but this is enough for now.

[/QUOTE]

I have mentioned brother I will take my classical case when Allaah guided me to be a good muslim (though they are still elements of hyporcrisy in me), firstly my rational was most authentic source i.e. the Quran later was the next authentic source i.e. Bukhari.

I think brother, they are few question from my side like i said earlier either of us will be cornered if only one is being questioned and i feel let the onlookers see whats happening later we can summarise and look at the commonality factor of our discussion. I hope let this discussion stop here for the mean times next i will pose my set of questions.

I hope brother this should be alright with you once you confirm you can answer.:)

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

Peace SlaveofAllaah

InshaAllah I want to see your questions and I will inshaAllah answer them to the best of my ability, so please ask. However, also remember much of the questions you will ask I will clearly not be in a position to answer ... as my position on this matter is not determined. I having not made a decision about whether it is right or wrong to make the claim that Khanbabax has made leaves me in a position still trying to get to the bottom of the issue.

You asked if I agreed on the method of doing research. I do not agree with the method. As I stated before I will not just go to the most authentic sources first then the lesser ones in my method for research. Rather I will look at all the sources regardless of their authenticity in unison. After I have understood all of them then I will categorise them in authority and authenticity.

If there is an ayat that I think I have understood, I will still seek an explanation in the hadith. You said that

"Here i dont take hadith into consideration now, but when i misunderstood 46:v15 (hopefully this is right) i had to read the hadith for better clarification because it was against my rational. So i think your point and my point we agree on that."

When a person 'misunderstands' it is different to 'not understands', this is because when a person 'misunderstands' he doesn't realise his error, however, when a person does 'not understand' he knows that his mind prevents him for reasoning with the argument, then seeks clarifications. I however, think when it comes to the Qur'an even when we think we have understood the ayat that we should still refer to hadith or commentaries on it, because we can never be too sure that what we have understood is the right understanding.

I need to answer the rest of your post later inshaAllah.

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran’s Ayats

:salam:

This topic has be stumbling as well. Br. Khanbaba’x claim that most jurists of the past agreed with this principle of inter-source Naskh is correct. Though I must add that none of them did it willingly or with utmost confidence.

The differences involved with Naskh has led to many variations and understandings as I see it. And the reason this theological aspect ash developed into a subject or science is because earlier jurists were not able to reconcile between a select few Sahih ahadith that contradict the Quran or vice versa.

After some research its a bit clear that there are 3 major categories of Naskh or abrogation as we are talking about it:

1 - When the ruling of a verse is abrogated however its text remains within the Mushaf.

2 - When the ruling and text of a verse is abrogated all together.

3 - When the text of a verse is abrogated however its ruling remains.

Generally, Quranic verses can and do abrogate other Quranic verses and a Sunnah can abrogate another Sunnah. In either case both the abrogated verses/sunnah and those that abrogate it are both present within the source literature.

The contradictions and theories arise only when dealing with inter-source abrogations.

I am not aware of an example of 1 i.e. where a Sunnah abrogated a ruling of a Quranic verse yet the verse is still found in the Mushaf. To me so far the Quranic verse has to be abrogated by another Quranic verse and then another Sunnah would be established to conform with the new Quranic verse.

Example 2 finds some support in the Quran but we do not have those verses and can only find references to them in the Sunnah.

Example 3 is where the ruling for Rajm comes from (the Quranic ruling was flogging) however the hadith from Umar RA says that verses of Rajm existed however were abrogated and the ruling yet remained. This is something I have not come to terms yet because if its ruling were to stay then I can’t see any sense why the verse needs abrogated. So far to me this category exists because the early jurists could not reject the hadith of Umar and it got extrapolated into this concept of Naskh. This is also where I see the argument of Mutawatir ahadith establishing ground in the concept of Naskh however this stems from the fact that we have elevated ahadith classifications to the point where we are not willing to reject them if they are in conflict with the Quran because they are Mutawatir. So the infallibility to Mutawatir is human assigned but not by Allah SWT. The guarantee of Qurans infallibility is from Allah SWT however the guarantee of infallibility for Mutawatir ahadith is from early jurists and scholars of hadith.

If there did not exist any contradictory Sahih ahadith with the Quran there would be no concept of inter-source Naskh. So does this mean that those Sahhih ahadith are wrong and not Sahih or can Mutawatir ahadith naskh the Quran?

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

I'd go with the former, but you already knew that USR :)

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

Indeed :D

On a scale of one to ten : Rate your
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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

It is purely a Fiqhee (jurisprudence) issue. It is predominantly followed by the Hanafi school.

Abrogation by Qur'an and/or Sunnah

According to the Shafii school, the sunnah cannot technically abrogate the Qur'an. According to the Hanafi school, sunnah can abrogate Qur'an if it is mutawatir (mass-narrated) or mustafid (abundant, even if not quite mutawatir). In practice, however, there is no instance of a Qur'anic verse being rendered totally inapplicable by the sunnah. The Hanafi principle mentioned is rather applied to cases of specification, e.g. the permissibility of somtimes wiping wet hands over leather socks during ablution, rather than inevitably washing the feet. This practice is mass-narrated in the sunnah and from the practice of the Companions, but is not explicitly found in the Qur'an, which refers only to washing/wiping the feet.
Similar is the case with the stoning of married adulterers. It is not total abrogation, because it is not calling for a total cancellation of the whipping mentioned in the Qur'an. Rather, it indicates the stoning of a subset of adulterers (and some jurists are actually of the view that whipping and stoning are both applied in this case), and as such is a case of specification (takhsis). The ahadith of stoning are mustafid. Also, there is the hadith fromUmar on this issue, which suggests that even if it was not part of the Qur'an, it was a very strong sunnah, to the extent that Umar thought it equivalent to the Qur'an. The Kharijites rejected the ruling of stoning, due to their perception that it contradicts the Qur'an, and in the process rejected (knowingly or unwittingly) a large quantity of hadith. A more recent scholar (20th century CE) purportedly did not espouse stoning, on the basis that it was abrogated by the verse of the Qur'an legislating whipping as the punishment for zina. This is hypothetically a possibility, although it leaves the question as to how the Companions and following generations apparently remained unaware of this abrogation, only to await him discovering it centuries later.
According to Imam al-Shafii also, the Qur'an cannot abrogate the sunnah, his rationale being that if a verse of the Qur'an abrogated the verdict of a practised sunnah, the Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) would then act on the abrogation, and so it would be his new sunnah which is actually abrogating the earlier sunnah; otherwise the door is opened for deviants to reject sunnahs by claiming they were abrogated by the Qur'an.
And God knows best.

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran’s Ayats

:salam:

Your right that it varies from school to school however it is said that Imam Shaafi did admit to the same principle that hanafi’s follow in his Risalah. I have not read the Risalah myself to confirm this though. Have you confirmed this?

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

Salamvalekum Brother pysah,

With the first post in this discussion we have agreed on the first point.
The second point we are still dwindling and hence we have to discuss more on that issue, because our POV differs.
Hence i would classify the first part of discussion you questioned as Session 1.
The aforementioned statements is my summary.

My question is based on the Quran and the Hadith. I will just quote and eg.

1) A Mutawatir Hadith narrated in Al bukahri, Abu Dawood, Ahmad, At Tirmidhi.
Now this is present in the Sahih Bukhari,

'There is no salah for the one who recites Surah Al Fatiha'

But,

1) Amongst the hanafis the ruling is dont recite anything during the salah when read aloud or silent, but just keep quiet
2) Amongst shaffis its a must to recite fatiha otherwise salah is not considered at all.

I can surely talk about this because i have been with them, and i myself was a hanafi so i am sure on this rulings.

Now i have this verse from the Quran
007.204
YUSUFALI: When the Qur'an is read, listen to it with attention, and hold your peace: that ye may receive Mercy.
PICKTHAL: And when the Qur'an is recited, give ear to it and pay heed, that ye may obtain mercy.
SHAKIR: And when the Quran is recited, then listen to it and remain silent, that mercy may be shown to you

Now my point is Allaah mentions remains silent, when Quran is being recited so can this mutawatir hadith supercede the Quranic Ayah.

Before discussing I would like to consider all the discussion we have had in this thread,
1) Regarding Quranic Ayah found in the Quran.
2) Not found in the Quran but in the hadith
3) Found in both
4) Research on not understanding (misunderstanding), Quranic verse and need help from the Quran.

I have just summarised, brother my only understanding of this thread is Mutawatir hadith superseding the Quran and this is just an eg. INsha Allaah, awaiting for your answer regarding this issue.

Salamvalekum

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

Asalaam u Alaikum SlaveofAllaah!

I don't know why do you still want to continue the arguments, even after Antumul Alona's post. Even I understood from his post and USResident is also agreeing with him. Khanbabax was right from the begining, it was us who couldn't understand him.
regards

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

Walekum salam sister,

From what i could understand from USR, and Antumul Alona's post was jurist differed and also the ruling was on the hadith and not hadith superceding the Quran. I just wanna know brother psyah's POV of hadith supercedign the Quran, and how would one analyse.

We have been discussing on those factors, well just waiting for brother pysah's answer and how can we go about it and summarise in the end.
As of now, i am not here intending to argue but just wanna come to a conclusion.

Well if this is the case i concede, that hadith can supercede the Quran but i am discussing if it has to what are the reasons behind it. Again i feel USR and Antumul Alona's post was more of hadith abrogating an hadith and a systme was introduced to analyse the authencitity of the hadith.

If i have misunderstood its my bad, and I am extremely sorry to Bro. Khanbabax if i have hurt it in the mean time, it was throughly on the basis for the sake of Allaah than being personal.

If anyones feel the topic i have picked is more into the argumentative track pleae do let me know, thanks.

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

SOA, I don't think your line of reasoning is wrong. But thats just my opinion, I don't have references to back you up.

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran’s Ayats

:wsalam:

Sister, I don’t think I agreed with what historically jurists have stated or formulated. I think one thing I wanted to clarify from my post was that what Br. Khanbabax had stated was correct from a historical perspective and that majority of scholars from the sunni school of thought have conceded similar views. Br. Antumul’s post was highlighting the difference between Hanafi and Shaafi’ schools about the subject.

The post I wrote still poses some questions because given the historical context around them they do not seem logical or compelling.

Just something more food for thought; we all know the hadith scholars rejected the vast majority of ahadith they collected. No one today can by any means verify that they did not erroneaously toss out some mutawatir ahadith, which might have carried injunctions that supercede some Quranic verse. Given this line of thought we ourselves are rendering our claim about the completeness of the Quran weak and skeptical. If you follow though you should realize that we are basing the authenticity of the Quran on the secondary source of Islamic literature then i.e. ahadith, something which has been source a contention. This violates the very premise than the Quran has been preserved in prisitine form. For me I can understand abrogation within the same source however for a Sunnah to abrogate Quran the Sunnah should have a valid verse or basis in the Quran which it is trying to explain. And for verses that were revealed and not supposed to be in the Quran yet there ruling is supposed to be followed is senseless to me so far. If the ruling is to be followed then why there is no need for the Quranic verse whereas all other Hudood have Quranic verses related to them and not just Sunnahs (unless the crime itself is not mentioned in the Quran).

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

I agree LB point is I can see some differences and i dont wont to create differences for such issues. My point is we already have so much of sectarianism, i dont want to purport it further and create differences between muslims.
Thanks a lot. LB

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

Asalaam u Alaikum everyone
Ok.. I'll talk to him(psyah) about this to give a reply.

Good Morning GS
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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

AOA
I didn't mean that I was defending the idea. I was rather saying that it seems only hanafi's follow this opinion in Fiqh.

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Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

Peace All

Instead of asking my questions the way I have been. Let's look at this another way.

Everyone so far feels that rules within the Qur'an are either general or specific. If those rules within the Qur'an that are specific to given conditions and if those conditions are not in place then the relaxing of such rules becomes prevalent.

This is a type of abrogation, but you can call it what you wish. It is only the Hanafi school who call it such, may be, but it is everyone who practices it, though be it in a different guise.

I personally think that the Qur'an portrays a universal message with conditions that apply throughout time. I also believe that the Sunnah contextualises and sets parameters for the Qur'anic ayat telling us when the rules within the Qur'an become binding and when not.

Certain things will never be abrogated of ayat pertaining to:

The narration of a story or event in history
Anything to do with Tawheed

However, some things to do with conduct of one to another may or may not be applicable in certain conditions, I hope people realise this! Therefore I hold onto what I said initially, that is ... it is quite possible that everyone is correct but people need to stop being too strict about terminology definitions so one can see that 'naskh' is actually an array of things one of which is 'replacement' another of which is 'contextualise', etc.

condition of having a degree to become MNA