Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
Stamina na hum main nahin aap main hain, hum ek ek post padte hain aur jawab dete hain, aapne to pure ke pure post ek saat padliye.. Just joking
I was dropping in from time to time.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
hmmmmmmmm i take my words back.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
Bhai you need to be more clear than this.
explain plz
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
There are million people on this earth who says that Allah Have a Son, should i agree with them? come on man! The sunni scholars who are quoting this kind of CRAP are the one who created division in Islam. and yes we need correct if bunch of scholars have said some thing like that... because in a way they are denying the very first aya of sura-e-Baqra which says," this is the book without any fault..."
Give me the example where Prohpet (PBUH) and Khulfa-e-Rashideen (RZA) practicsed anything which against or in contradiction of Quran. ( have u red sura-e-Anfaal and the tafseer of the same sura?)
Have u ever heard of Illama ibn-e-Jozi and his prinples of Hadees...( please refer to them, he was well-known Scholar of Ahl-e-Sunna wal Jamaat, atleast he is 100 times better than the mufti u are refereing to)
Now u are saying that i should bring an aya from quran which says that mutawatir hadees can be wrong.. my brother, very first aya ( after Alif, lam, Meem) which says "this book have no fault..", now u are saying that some group or bunch of scholars says that a mutawatir hadees is better than quran means the very first aya is somehow wrong ( u have not used this words but this is what u meant by superceding qurani ayat by a hadees).
Sahi-Bukhari is the most authenticate book of Ahadees ( from where all the mutawatir ahadees has came ) Have u ever red the Preface of Sahi-Bukhari, i suggest u read it and see what Imam Bukhari has to say about his collection...
2ndly it is well known that Sahi Bukhari is said to be the best book of ahadees, yet no body ever said that it have no flaws not even the writer ( Imam Bukhari) said so...
Good post. You will find many so called Sahi Bukhari editions and they will be different in their contents. Try it.
The discussion is prolonged for no reason.
No hadeeth can superced Quranic verse and if anyone tries to imply this is not really making any sense. Some people get confused and then in turn spread confusion out of their own percieved good faith.
Simply put..........;
Hadeeth are narrated by human and interpreted by human.
Meaning:Human to Human.
Quran is as we believe contains Allah's own words.
Meaning: Allah to the Prophet SAW.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
Peace Khehkeshan
I don't think you read the post that you have replied to carefully, please read again ...
Peace Khehkeshan
You want to bring real examples? So be my guest. Please provide examples of hadith from the sahih mutawatir collections that you want deemed false on account of them being different from what you have understood the Qur'an is saying.
Quite frankly I have not the time to do this, nor do I believe it will be a productive exercise. But you feel it is going to help then do so.
You said "any hadith that contradicts the Qur'an should be rejected"
Now I told you that I cannot do this:
1) Say what the Qur'an truly means 2) Say what the hadith truly means 3) Say whether the hadith actually does or does not contradict the Qur'an
I was trying to prove a point, but that point cannot be proven if you ask me to find hadith that contradict the Qur'an. The issue is not about contradiction, it is about abrogation and you should realise that.
So, you don't understand meaning of hadith, meaning of Quran, meaning of Islam, what do you understand? And are you implying that no one knows what anything means in the Quran or hadith? Think about this for a second before replying.
We are humans, and Allah has given us brains and free will for a specific reason and purpose. Our level of understanding is not supposed to equal that of Allah's but that does not mean we cannot understand on our own level and should just give up.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
Simply put..........;
Hadeeth are narrated by human and interpreted by human. Meaning:Human to Human.
if you think like this then
Quran told to muslim by Hazoor PBUH ( a human ) to muslims (human)
meaning : human to human
[quote]
Quran is as we believe contains Allah's own words.
Meaning: Allah to the Prophet SAW.
[/QUOTE]
just believe , all depend only on just believe :P
Quran and Hadees both are revelation of Allah to Hazoor PBUH and are part of same wahi
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
will this wahi debate ever finish?
If the case is stretched too long, just say salamoalaikum and be on your way.
Tumharay liyay tumhara deen, mayriyay mera deen
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
if you think like this then
Quran told to muslim by Hazoor PBUH ( a human ) to muslims (human) meaning : human to human
just believe , all depend only on just believe :P
Quran and Hadees both are revelation of Allah to Hazoor PBUH and are part of same wahi
Quran is not human to human.
Its Allah to Human (The Prophet SAW)........and then to other human.
I do not want to lower the level of hadeeth so one stops believing on it altogether but I disagree that hadesth are in any way considered 'revelations'.
These are collection of narrated accounts of the Prophet SAW life and his words/actions and surroundings etc. Some authentic some not. Many are consistent with each other but some are contradictory. But none are revelations.
Off topic: My emphasis was on 'we' (the muslims) not the word 'believe'.
But since you asked: Yes belief is the essence of all anyone does in the name of religion or any other act in this life.
I do not want to go too far from topic please.:)
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
Quran is not human to human.
Its Allah to Human (The Prophet SAW)........and then to other human.
I do not want to lower the level of hadeeth so one stops believing on it altogether but I disagree that hadesth are in any way considered 'revelations'. These are collection of narrated accounts of the Prophet SAW life and his words/actions and surroundings etc. Some authentic some not. Many are consistent with each other but some are contradictory. But none are revelations.
Off topic: My emphasis was on 'we' (the muslims) not the word 'believe'.
But since you asked: Yes belief is the essence of all anyone does in the name of religion or any other act in this life.
I do not want to go too far from topic please.:)
So you don't believe in** Ahadith alqudsi**?
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
Quran is not human to human.
Its Allah to Human (The Prophet SAW)........and then to other human.
how you know its from Allah to Human
doesn't it told to you by human
[quote]
I do not want to lower the level of hadeeth so one stops believing on it altogether but I disagree that hadesth are in any way considered 'revelations'.
These are collection of narrated accounts of the Prophet SAW life and his words/actions and surroundings etc. Some authentic some not. Many are consistent with each other but some are contradictory. But none are revelations.
Off topic: My emphasis was on 'we' (the muslims) not the word 'believe'.
But since you asked: Yes belief is the essence of all anyone does in the name of religion or any other act in this life.
I do not want to go too far from topic please.:)
[/QUOTE]
[/quote]
you even don't know about the classification of ahadees
and you have started giving judgement on ahadees
and started rejecting ahadees by making mind that some ahadees are not authentic
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
meherealone, once again look up the definition of faith in a dictionary. If you don't have faith, that is between you and Allah. Leave other Muslims out of it.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
explain plz
Bro I think you are not making any points.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
meherealone, once again look up the definition of faith in a dictionary. If you don't have faith, that is between you and Allah. Leave other Muslims out of it.
for your interest, i think you also havn't seen the definition of faith in dictionaries
definition of faith in dictionary (microsof encarta dictionary )
1. belief or trust: belief in, devotion to, or trust in somebody or something, especially without logical proof
2. RELIGION religion or religious group: a system of religious belief, or the group of people who adhere to it
3. RELIGION trust in God: belief in and devotion to God • Her faith is unwavering.
4. set of beliefs: a strongly held set of beliefs or principles • people of different political faiths
5. loyalty: allegiance or loyalty to somebody or something
Encarta® World English Dictionary © Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Developed for Microsoft by Bloomsbury Publishing Plc.
Merrium Webseter Dictionary
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : *firm belief in something for which there is no proof *(2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs
thefreedictionary.com
1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.
for you i just quote
the words of Ahmed Deedat regarding faith in Islam
"
The fact is that Islam is a simple, reasonable and practical religion and free from priestcraft . It is a way of life for the social, moral and spiritual development of humanity. It does not demand of a man to surrender his reasoning faculties nor does it demand a blind faith in obscure and inexplicable mysteries. It teaches the purest form of Monotheism and regards Polytheisms as an unpardonable sin. "
thanx to Allah that i believe in him and Quran logically
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
Bro I think you are not making any points.
and you are also not giving any point to explain yourself
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
So you don't believe in** Ahadith alqudsi**?
Which post of mine makes you think like that? Please explain.
I would beieve any hadeeth which would not directly contradict Quranic verse and 'common sense'. For example people in this forum have quoted some 'hadeeth' that camel urine was prescribed by the prophet SAW allegedly. They also stated that some religious scholar allegedly consumed camel urine in 20th century.
I absolutely disagree with that and for me there is hadeeth which say leave anything which makes you feel 'karahiat.
Even though any life saving remedy can be consumed regardless of what it is but we have absolutely no scientific or historic information that camel urine could make someone save from dying. So to me at this point this so called hadeeth has no value and makes no difference on my Islamic belief.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
how you know its from Allah to Human doesn't it told to you by human
you even don't know about the classification of ahadees and you have started giving judgement on ahadees and started rejecting ahadees by making mind that some ahadees are not authentic
Thats a long discussion and off topic here that if anyone believes Quran is from Allah to Human. But thats the muslim faith and islamic teaching. Take it or leave it. Accept it or not its up to you.
The discussion is about if hadeeth can superced Quranic verses......the answer without hesitation is a big NO.
Read ahadeeth books and you will find the answer. I already said there are many copies of so called Sahi Bukhari. Quran is on the other hand is one.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
for your interest, i think you also havn't seen the definition of faith in dictionaries
definition of faith in dictionary (microsof encarta dictionary ) 1. belief or trust: belief in, devotion to, or trust in somebody or something, especially without logical proof 2. RELIGION religion or religious group: a system of religious belief, or the group of people who adhere to it 3. RELIGION trust in God: belief in and devotion to God • Her faith is unwavering. 4. set of beliefs: a strongly held set of beliefs or principles • people of different political faiths 5. loyalty: allegiance or loyalty to somebody or something
Encarta® World English Dictionary © Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Developed for Microsoft by Bloomsbury Publishing Plc.
Merrium Webseter Dictionary
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : *firm belief in something for which there is no proof *(2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs
thefreedictionary.com 1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing. 2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust. 3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters. 4. often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will. 5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.
for you i just quote the words of Ahmed Deedat regarding faith in Islam " The fact is that Islam is a simple, reasonable and practical religion and free from priestcraft . It is a way of life for the social, moral and spiritual development of humanity. It does not demand of a man to surrender his reasoning faculties nor does it demand a blind faith in obscure and inexplicable mysteries. It teaches the purest form of Monotheism and regards Polytheisms as an unpardonable sin. "
thanx to Allah that i believe in him and Quran logically
That's the sad part, you don't believe Quran to be Allah's words but the words transmitted by humans to humans with no divine intervention to keep the words secure from change. You don't have faith in the statement that Quran can never be corrupted. That is why you keep asking how Muslims can believe in Quran to be in its pure form. You will never understand the answer unless you believe. Your "logic" is faulty to begin with when you fail to understand the difference between Quran and hadith.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
That's the sad part, you don't believe Quran to be Allah's words but the words transmitted by humans to humans with no divine intervention to keep the words secure from change. You don't have faith in the statement that Quran can never be corrupted. That is why you keep asking how Muslims can believe in Quran to be in its pure form. You will never understand the answer unless you believe. Your "logic" is faulty to begin with when you fail to understand the difference between Quran and hadith.
Agree with you there.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
and you are also not giving any point to explain yourself
Can't help it if you don't understand, everyone else did. Anyway what is it about my posts that you don't agree with.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran’s Ayats
Behna, can you tell me what makes Hadith Qudsi different from other ahadith. Please no links or cut and pastes. I want to know from your understanding.