Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

[psyah]

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran’s Ayats

@USResident

Behna, can you tell me what makes Hadith Qudsi different from other ahadith. Please no links or cut and pastes. I want to know from your understanding.

Peace USResident

I’ll answer this one if you don’t mind.

Hadith come in a variety of types:

Someone who relates the action of the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) that they have seen.

Someone who quotes the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) and adds context from him/herself.

Someone who quotes the Prophet Muhammad (SAW), who in turn is quoting someone else.

A statement of a Sahabi demonstrating the application of given prophetic understandings.

A quoted instruction of the Prophet Muhammad (SAW), [usually comes with a context.]

A quoted historical account uttered by the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) of times gone by.

An interpretation of a Divine vision in to words to form an instruction or point of enlightenment uttered by the Prophet Muhammad (SAW).

Hadith Qudsi is based on the last definition but can fall into the other descriptions. For example, every hadith Qudsi as a Divine vision is a statement of the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) also, but not all quotes of the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) are based on Divine visions. … And so on.

The prophet Muhammad (SAW) was himself:

a) Guided from birth to be a good and trustworthy man
b) Later at prophethood inspired by Allah (SWT) to address with the ultimate hikmah and understand revelation better than anyone.
Revelation came in two forms:
c1) Visions and Instructions by Angel Gabriel
c2) Direct decanting of Kalamullah into the heart of Muhammad (SAW). i.e. The Qur’an.

[meherealone]

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

@deedawar

Thats a long discussion and off topic here that if anyone believes Quran is from Allah to Human. But thats the muslim faith and islamic teaching. Take it or leave it. Accept it or not its up to you.

The discussion is about if hadeeth can superced Quranic verses......the answer without hesitation is a big NO.

Read ahadeeth books and you will find the answer. I already said there are many copies of so called Sahi Bukhari. Quran is on the other hand is one.

if you don't want to understand , its up to you
muslim faith is based on trust on Hazoor PBUH never tells a lie
and why we trust him, because his whole life is recorded and we didn't find any flaw in it
so now when he says this is from Allah ST , we agrees that it is from Allah
and then we open the book (Quran ) to testify with various means and found it free of errors and that solidfy our iman

if one should have faith in it , then one should have proper logic to it, because non muslim will ask the question again and again , and you have to prove it again and again ,
The blind faith will not help our cause, even hindus have blind faith , does that make them true
if only blind faith make things true

and second i have never said sahih Bukhari is devine, read my posts again , my brother/sister

[meherealone]

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

@Khehkeshan

That's the sad part, you don't believe Quran to be Allah's words

where i told that Quran is not Allah's word
i have a firm believe

even without opening the Quran , i have a firm believe that is from Allah
but you don't have, what i am trying , is to think , just think
but the blind faith as in other religions have stoped your thinking

, plz let me know , did sahaba verified , that Quran is from Allah , did they do so?
why they believe that what Hazoor PBUH is telling is truth

behan/bahi meray , it was due to trust

[quote]

but the words transmitted by humans to humans with no divine intervention to keep the words secure from change.

[/quote]

there are numerious ayat in Quran , which tells us that Allah have saved the ahadees as well. If ahadees will not be saved, thoes quranic ayat will become false and result , fault in Quran

but you don't want to understand

[quote]

You don't have faith in the statement that Quran can never be corrupted. That is why you keep asking how Muslims can believe in Quran to be in its pure form. You will never understand the answer unless you believe. Your "logic" is faulty to begin with when you fail to understand the difference between Quran and hadith.
[/QUOTE]

its better to go to some alim and then ask this question , he will tell you what i am telling

you don't know about islamic principles and have started giving faulty arguments on Quran and hadees

i have a firm believe that Quran can never be corrupted , and i have a logic behind it ,as how Allah is saving quran but you are unable to answer it

[hareem01]

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

@deedawar

I would beieve any hadeeth which would not directly contradict Quranic verse and 'common sense'. For example people in this forum have quoted some 'hadeeth' that camel urine was prescribed by the prophet SAW allegedly. They also stated that some religious scholar allegedly consumed camel urine in 20th century. I absolutely disagree with that and for me there is hadeeth which say leave anything which makes you feel 'karahiat.

Even though any life saving remedy can be consumed regardless of what it is but we have absolutely no scientific or historic information that camel urine could make someone save from dying. So to me at this point this so called hadeeth has no value and makes no difference on my Islamic belief.

Did you do any research before calling this hadith "so-called?
Have you heard the hadith that says there is cure in honey and surah fatiha for every disease except death. Then how can you think that camel urine can cure you from dying. There is cure in camel urine for some diseases and it has been proved medically.

All I know is that we cannot declare a hadith fabricated without looking at its chain of narrations, opinion of the Scholars of four schools of thought, may be scientifically or historically proved and then by using common sense.

your feeling of ' karahiyat ' from drinking urine camel doesn't make the hadith fabricated or so called. Only If you have looked at the whole hadith and then the opinion of four schools of thought then you know that meaning of this Hadith is that if a person needs to consume an impure and impermissible(like alcohol) substance as a cure for an illness, and no other reasonable alternative is available, then it is permissible. In all other circumstances, camel urine is prohibited.

Which post of mine makes you think like that? Please explain.
I do not want to lower the level of hadeeth so one stops believing on it altogether but I disagree that hadesth are in any way considered 'revelations'.
These are collection of narrated accounts of the Prophet SAW life and his words/actions and surroundings etc. Some authentic some not. Many are consistent with each other but some are contradictory. But none are revelations.

[USResident]

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran’s Ayats

@psyah

Peace USResident

I’ll answer this one if you don’t mind.

Hadith come in a variety of types:

Someone who relates the action of the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) that they have seen.

Someone who quotes the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) and adds context from him/herself.

Someone who quotes the Prophet Muhammad (SAW), who in turn is quoting someone else.

A statement of a Sahabi demonstrating the application of given prophetic understandings.

A quoted instruction of the Prophet Muhammad (SAW), [usually comes with a context.]

A quoted historical account uttered by the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) of times gone by.

An interpretation of a Divine vision in to words to form an instruction or point of enlightenment uttered by the Prophet Muhammad (SAW).

Hadith Qudsi is based on the last definition but can fall into the other descriptions. For example, every hadith Qudsi as a Divine vision is a statement of the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) also, but not all quotes of the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) are based on Divine visions. … And so on.

The prophet Muhammad (SAW) was himself:

a) Guided from birth to be a good and trustworthy man
b) Later at prophethood inspired by Allah (SWT) to address with the ultimate hikmah and understand revelation better than anyone.
Revelation came in two forms:
c1) Visions and Instructions by Angel Gabriel
c2) Direct decanting of Kalamullah into the heart of Muhammad (SAW). i.e. The Qur’an.

No problem Br. Psyah. So are you of the opinion that all ahadith are revelation (I am not)? I’m a little confused what you mean by visions by Angel Gabriel.

[SlaveofAllaah]

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

[QUOTE]

where i told that Quran is not Allah's word
i have a firm believe

even without opening the Quran , i have a firm believe that is from Allah
but you don't have, what i am trying , is to think , just think **
**but the blind faith as in other religions have stoped your thinking

, plz let me know , did sahaba verified , that Quran is from Allah , did they do so?
why they believe that what Hazoor PBUH is telling is truth

behan/bahi meray , it was due to trust

[/QUOTE]

This is the belief of a muslim and finally you have understood my line of reasoning Alhamdullillaah.
This is what i was trying to make you understand that Quran is from Allaah simple as that and you talk about collection of quran please do look into this verse.
075.017YUSUFALI: It is for Us to collect it and to promulgate it:
PICKTHAL: Lo! upon Us (resteth) the putting together thereof and the reading thereof.
SHAKIR: Surely on Us (devolves) the collecting of it and the reciting of it.

[meherealone]

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

This is the belief of a muslim and finally you have understood my line of reasoning Alhamdullillaah. This is what i was trying to make you understand that Quran is from Allaah simple as that and you talk about collection of quran please do look into this verse. 075.017YUSUFALI: It is for Us to collect it and to promulgate it: PICKTHAL: Lo! upon Us (resteth) the putting together thereof and the reading thereof. SHAKIR: Surely on Us (devolves) the collecting of it and the reciting of it.

nice but unfortunately , me fail to make you understand , my point of view

let me try again,
Allah is the creater of everything, he make everything and allow us to think and explore it. In his every creation their is logic ,
he created life, to create it , he create sun, stars etc , no mystery there
you can just explore it and find many many things

similary when he says he will save Quran , he doesn't save it with magic
he gave the gift of beautiful memory to save it in to the hearts of many , many people uptil now
no other book in the world have such quality that so many people have memorized it. and so many people read it

Allah always gave his "Nishani" to muslims and non muslims to think , how this was possible

"Yes Allah make the way of saving Quran , via Trust worthy muslim, every one know without Allah's will , it was not possible but he made us , the muslims, the chosen one to be honoured with this blessing"

"aur tum apney rub ki kon kon si neamatoon ko jhutlaoo gay"

[USResident]

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

nice but unfortunately , me fail to make you understand , my point of view

let me try again, Allah is the creater of everything, he make everything and allow us to think and explore it. In his every creation their is logic , he created life, to create it , he create sun, stars etc , no mystery there you can just explore it and find many many things

similary when he says he will save Quran , he doesn't save it with magic he gave the gift of beautiful memory to save it in to the hearts of many , many people uptil now no other book in the world have such quality that so many people have memorized it. and so many people read it

Allah always gave his "Nishani" to muslims and non muslims to think , how this was possible

"Yes Allah make the way of saving Quran , via Trust worthy muslim, every one know without Allah's will , it was not possible but he made us , the muslims, the chosen one to be honoured with this blessing"

"aur tum apney rub ki kon kon si neamatoon ko jhutlaoo gay"

Good point made by you here. Liked it.

Now do you agree with the title of the thread though. We've had some nice discussion here thus far about Naskh but the title here is narrowly focused on the word "supercede". What are your thoughts on that?

[SlaveofAllaah]

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

nice but unfortunately , me fail to make you understand , my point of view

let me try again, Allah is the creater of everything, he make everything and allow us to think and explore it. In his every creation their is logic , he created life, to create it , he create sun, stars etc , no mystery there you can just explore it and find many many things

similary when he says he will save Quran , he doesn't save it with magic he gave the gift of beautiful memory to save it in to the hearts of many , many people uptil now no other book in the world have such quality that so many people have memorized it. and so many people read it

Allah always gave his "Nishani" to muslims and non muslims to think , how this was possible

"Yes Allah make the way of saving Quran , via Trust worthy muslim, every one know without Allah's will , it was not possible but he made us , the muslims, the chosen one to be honoured with this blessing"

"aur tum apney rub ki kon kon si neamatoon ko jhutlaoo gay"

Salamvalekum,

Agreed with you here brother, same as USR.

[meherealone]

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

Good point made by you here. Liked it.

Now do you agree with the title of the thread though. We've had some nice discussion here thus far about Naskh but the title here is narrowly focused on the word "supercede". What are your thoughts on that?

i have already told in some of my previous post in this thread that words like
supercede or replace are not good and doesn't explain clearly rather it equivocate the things

rather we should say that via most mutawatir ahadees , we get the relaxation with if and but conditions, which are not available in Quranic ayat and we are 100% sure about them, to be true, as we trust Quran.

[psyah]

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

@meherealone

i have already told in some of my previous post in this thread that words like supercede or replace are not good and doesn't explain clearly rather it equivocate the things

rather we should say that via most mutawatir ahadees , we get the relaxation with if and but conditions, which are not available in Quranic ayat and we are 100% sure about them, to be true, as we trust Quran.

:) ... Peace meherealone

[psyah]

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran’s Ayats

@USResident

No problem Br. Psyah. So are you of the opinion that all ahadith are revelation (I am not)? I’m a little confused what you mean by visions by Angel Gabriel.

There should have been a “;” after vision.

I meant to say visions (from Allah (SWT)); and instructions by angel Gabriel (AS).

[Khehkeshan]

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

So we all agree that the title of this thread is misleading and wrong?

[deedawar]

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

@hareem01

Did you do any research before calling this hadith "so-called? Have you heard the hadith that says there is cure in honey and surah fatiha for every disease except death. Then how can you think that camel urine can cure you from dying. There is cure in camel urine for some diseases and it has been proved medically.

All I know is that we cannot declare a hadith fabricated without looking at its chain of narrations, opinion of the Scholars of four schools of thought, may be scientifically or historically proved and then by using common sense.

your feeling of ' karahiyat ' from drinking urine camel doesn't make the hadith fabricated or so called. Only If you have looked at the whole hadith and then the opinion of four schools of thought then you know that meaning of this Hadith is that if a person needs to consume an impure and impermissible(like alcohol) substance as a cure for an illness, and no other reasonable alternative is available, then it is permissible. In all other circumstances, camel urine is prohibited.

@deedawar

Which post of mine makes you think like that? Please explain. I do not want to lower the level of hadeeth so one stops believing on it altogether but I disagree that hadesth are in any way considered 'revelations'.

**

@hareem01

These are collection of narrated accounts of the Prophet SAW life and his words/actions and surroundings etc. Some authentic some not. Many are consistent with each other but some are contradictory. But none are revelations.**

I purposely edited my post so I end up qouting your post including my EARLIER post separated from your post.

I just do not agree with this so-called hadeeth since it does go against the usual, intellectual teachings of Islam and against the teachings of human decency and dignity...FOR EXAMLE:

A human is above animal.
A human is far more intelligent than any animal.
A human doen not need the excreta of an animal to save a human life.
Urine of an animal may contain useful items for the nature but..................................

..........direct consumption by the human of the EXCRETA of animal including but not limited to URINE and faeces is just plain and simple against ISLAMIC RULES.

[hareem01]

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

it does go against the usual, intellectual teachings of Islam and against the teachings of human decency and dignity...FOR EXAMLE:*

A human is above animal. A human is far more intelligent than any animal. A human doen not need the excreta of an animal to save a human life. Urine of an animal may contain useful items for the nature but..................................

..........direct consumption by the human of the EXCRETA of animal including but not limited to URINE and faeces is just plain and simple against ISLAMIC RULES.

Ok Maulana Deedawar......:) Would you like to tell me which are those ISLAMIC RULES?*

[deedawar]

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

Ok Maulana Deedawar......:) Would you like to tell me which are those ISLAMIC RULES?

Ha Ha...........

I never claimed to be a maulana or mullah or religious scholar.
What I do know is that ......

1- Islam is closest to nature than any other religious thoughts.
2- Islam promotes thinking (Tafakkur)
3- Islam teaches free will. if not then angels were enough. Even angels were allowed to ask.
4-A 'najis' and 'na-paak' thing is allowed only if one is dying and it is considered the last hope to save a life.
5- Urine of an animal or human is najis and na-paak and has not been proven yet to be considered as life saving material.
6- It is beyond human dignity to go behind a camel and wait for it to pee with open mouth or a container......................Can you do it?:)

Please feel free to prove me wrong.

[Khehkeshan]

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

Ok Maulana Deedawar......:) Would you like to tell me which are those ISLAMIC RULES?

Is camel urine halal?

[Folks ! start new thread for new disscussion on other topics.Thanks-
Code Red ]