Re: Mutah [temporary marriage] -- Social and cultural perspective
^^ Ok that may be a reason...but do mutaas generally end up in permanent marriage? And also, if it does not then what are the chances that the woman would be acceptable for a future permanent marriage. Generally a divorced woman is not looked upon as a "good catch" by society so how would people view a woman who has been through a mutaa?
Re: Mutah [temporary marriage] -- Social and cultural perspective
^^ Ok that may be a reason...but do mutaas generally end up in permanent marriage? And also, if it does not then what are the chances that the woman would be acceptable for a future permanent marriage. Generally a divorced woman is not looked upon as a "good catch" by society so how would people view a woman who has been through a mutaa?
I don't know if they generally end up in permanent marriage. From that one couple that I know, they did end up getting permanently married.
I also believe that Muslim society in general would not look favorably at a woman who did mut'a just like they wouldn't look favorably at a woman who dated before marriage. But that's the failure of society in general. People should not be expected to marry someone they barely know, apparently that's considered "normal" in Muslim society.
Code-Red also mentioned that Shia scholars have left many loopholes when it comes to Mutah. He is right; one thing about Muta that disturbs me is that in theory I (a married man) could go and do Mut'a with a woman, without telling my wife.
Re: Mutah [temporary marriage] -- Social and cultural perspective
^And another is that he does not need the consent of the woman's family and does not need to make the marriage public.
Re: Mutah [temporary marriage] -- Social and cultural perspective
^And another is that he does not need the consent of the woman's family and does not need to make the marriage public.
Yes, but I've read that's true only for an already divorced woman. A virgin woman usually needs permission. I believe it is true that the couple doesn't have to make it public, maybe that was a societal result.
Re: Mutah [temporary marriage] -- Social and cultural perspective
Is there a requirement that mutaa has to be with a Muslim or People of the Book?
Re: Mutah [temporary marriage] -- Social and cultural perspective
Is there a requirement that mutaa has to be with a Muslim or People of the Book?
Yes, the woman has to be either one of those.
Re: Mutah [temporary marriage] – Social and cultural perspective
Moonshiner - I appreciate your honest and straight forward opinion on this subject. :k:
Now Before i give my concluding thought on this subject, let me tell you folks some thing interesting …
Once upon a time, some 12,14 years ago, I was watching tv in a lazy summer afternoon. A film appeared on a tv channel, it caught my attention becasue of a familiar voice… Amitabh Bachan had given the voice over for the naration of that movie. I started watching the movie and did not leave my seat untill it was finished.
The movie was a delight. A very delicate and amusing film. Name of the movie was Shatranj Ke Khilari](The Chess Players (1977) - IMDb) . There was hardly any dull moment in the film. Full credit to Director for depicting the aristocrisy and delicacy of Nawaabs of Awadh
. Today i know the story was written by none other than great urdu literature Icon,** Munshi premchand**. All in all an excellent movie :k:
Re: Mutah [temporary marriage] – Social and cultural perspective
Apart from quality ‘urdu’ film, The movie gave me my first insight at the concept of Mut’ah. Though it was just a quick reference but I would like to share with you fine people.
Just a quick background. in this scene The commanding officer of East India company is asking questions about the personality traits of Nawab Wajid Ali Shah is the ruler of one of the last independent kingdoms of India (Awadh)
Weston, British officer is answering these questions who has lived in the area for long time and he is well versed with local language Urdu.
[these dialogues are as it is in the movie (in english )except few verses Weston read in urdu and translate them in english]
The movie is uploaded at youtube. You can only understand the Brilliance of this scene by watching the movie . :k:
Outram: Tell me, Weston, you know the language, you know the people here- I mean, what kind of a poet is the King? Is he any good, or is it simply because he's the king they say he's good?
Weston: I think he's rather good, Sir.
Outram: You do, eh?
Weston: Yes, Sir.
Outram: Do you know any of his stuff?
Weston: I know some, Sir.
Outram: Well, can you recite it? Do you know it by heart?
Weston: (taken aback): Recite it, Sir?
Outram: Yes, I'm not a poetry man. Many soldiers are. But I'm curious to know what it sounds like. I rather like the sound of Hindustani.
(Weston remains silent, slightly ill at ease.)
Outram: Are they long, these poems?
Weston: Not the ones I know, Sir.
Outram: Well, go on man, out with it!
(Weston recites a four-line poem.)
Outram: Is that all?
Weston: That's all, Sir.
Outram: Well, it certainly has the virtue of brevity. What the hell does it mean, if anything?
Weston: He's speaking about himself, Sir.
Outram: Well what's he saying? It's nothing obscene, I hope?
Weston: No, Sir.
Outram: Well, what's he saying?
Weston (coughing lightly):
Wound not my bleeding body.
Throw flowers gently on my grave.
Though mingled with the earth, I rose up to the skies.
People mistook my rising dust for the heavens.
That's all, Sir.
Outram: H'm. Doesn't strike me as a great flight of fancy, I'm afraid.
(Outram rises from his chair slowly.)
Weston: It doesn't translate very well, Sir.
Outram: And what about his songs? He's something of a composer, I understand? Are they any good, these songs?
Weston: They keep running in your head, Sir. I find them quite attractive. Some of them.
Outram: I see.
Weston: He's really quite gifted, Sir.
(Outram glances briefly at Weston and begins to pace the room thoughtfully.)
Weston: He's also fond of dancing, Sir.
Outram: Yes, so I understand. With bells on his feet, like nautch girls. Also dresses up as a Hindu god, I'm told.
Weston: You're right, Sir. He also composes his own operas.
Outram: Doesn't leave him much time for his concubines, not to speak of the affairs of state. Does he really have 400 concubines?
Weston: I believe that's the count, Sir.
Outram: And 29 'muta' wives. What the hell are muta wives?
Weston: Muta wives, Sir. They're temporary wives.
Outram: Temporary wives?
Weston: Yes, Sir. A muta marriage can last for there days, or three months, or three years. Muta is an Arabic word.
Outram: And it means temporary?
Weston: No, Sir.
(Outram raises his eyebrows.)
Outram: No?
Weston: It means-er, enjoyment.
Outram: Oh. Oh yes I see. Most instructive. And what kind of a king do you think all this makes him, Weston? All these various accomplishments?
Weston (smiling): Rather a special kind, Sir, I should think.
(Outram stops pacing, stiffens, turns sharply to Weston.)
Outram: Special? I would've used a much stronger word than that,
Weston: I'd have said a bad king. A frivolous, effeminate, irresponsible, worthless king.
Weston: He's not the first eccentric in the line-
Outram (interrupting): Oh I know he's not the first, but he certainly deserves to be the last. We've put up with this nonsense long enough. Eunuchs, fiddlers, nautch-girls and 'muta' wives and God knows what else. He can't rule, he has no wish to rule, and therefore he has no business to rule.
Weston: There I would agree with you, Sir.
Outram: Good. I am glad to hear that. I have it in mind to recommend you for a higher position when we take over-
Weston: Take over, Sir?
Outram: Take over, Weston. And any suspicion that you hold a brief for the King would ruin your chances. You remember that.
This is that part of movie i am talking about. The way director has porteyed the refined culture and lifestyle of that era is amazing. This is a movie for you if you have a fine taste in Art and literature
Re: Mutah [temporary marriage] – Social and cultural perspective
My pleaure. I hope others will contribute to this as well; but it seems its uncommon in Pakistani society; so we might not get too many responses.
Where did you get your information about Mut’a?
I am still trying to go through some extensive articles on the subject from www.mutah.com
Any other suggestions?
Re: Mutah [temporary marriage] – Social and cultural perspective
Pardon me for getting a little carried away.
And this is the begining of the movie and very interesting funny naration by none other than the man with Golden voice, Amitabh Bachan. This will give an overview of the movie :k:
Ok. recess over. now i will be comming back on serious topic 
Re: Mutah [temporary marriage] -- Social and cultural perspective
It is totally unfair that non-muslims are not allowed muta'a. Can anybody tell me if sharia allows muta'a for infidels? If it does, I am joining Sharia today group in Canada.
Re: Mutah [temporary marriage] -- Social and cultural perspective
Yes, the woman has to be either one of those.
Can a hanood have a muta'a with a muslima?
Re: Mutah [temporary marriage] -- Social and cultural perspective
Muta'a is trumped by the Quran's commandment that when you marry, you shouldn't be using lust as a pre-req.
How are muta'a marriages, as defined by your movie, Codie, to be Islamic, then?
Re: Mutah [temporary marriage] in the time of Amir ul Momineen Ali ibn Abi Talib
And you obey all what you have mentioned here? Its like with the maulvis...they preach and teach the good, but do themselves no good at all. It's always easier said then done. I know the best practise and Its example very well, but these days Its all a saying when you from a middle or upper class family nothing happens the way you have described here.
Yeah, I have actually. shrugs I'm comfortable with my decisions, and they didn't interfere with my career or land me in further debt.
Re: Mutah [temporary marriage] -- Social and cultural perspective
^And another is that he does not need the consent of the woman's family and does not need to make the marriage public.
If Muta'as were practiced on a wide scale and if it was done in this style, it would be a public health problem.
Re: Mutah [temporary marriage] in the time of Amir ul Momineen Ali ibn Abi Talib
Even if the marriage then gives her license to become sexually active, which she very well may, and later her temporary husband moves on to another woman in another muta’a or ends the marriage?
Would that be ok with you? You can’t ingore the possibilities that muta’a opens up, and its these issues which make me oppose it. If its only for getting to know someone, then why forge a marriage bond out of it? I’d rather take a 3rd approach, by talking to my kids about sex early on and explaining to them that if they do want to make friends with a boy or a girl, then all activities would be done under my roof.
Pakistanis have an issue with bringing up their kids - they think they can control EVERYTHING, and we can’t! Unfortunately, our children grow up and become their own adults with their own minds, and the BEST we can do is give them the best lessons possible on these topics and pray that they make the right decisions. And when they don’t, we need to help them out as much as possible, rather than making life for them worse.
Throwing your daughter in a temporary marriage, where she’s open to justt as much abuse, is not much of an improvement over her having a pre-marital sexual relationship. It might give others less to gossip on, but it can still hurt her. I mean, is it really impossible to lay down some serious ground rules and train your kids to respect you and your religion so they DON’T engage in pre-marital sex? Or is it just too hard?
Re: Mutah [temporary marriage] in the time of Amir ul Momineen Ali ibn Abi Talib
If its only for getting to know someone, then why forge a marriage bond out of it? I
Well how are they supposed to get to know one another, if Islam doesn't allow that with nah-mehram? Mut'a is allowed by Islam so it serves this purpose.
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I'd rather take a 3rd approach, by talking to my kids about sex early on and explaining to them that if they do want to make friends with a boy or a girl, then all activities would be done under my roof.
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I like that approach.
[quote]
Throwing your daughter in a temporary marriage, where she's open to justt as much abuse, is not much of an improvement over her having a pre-marital sexual relationship.
[/quote]
Well I'm not going to throw her into anything in the first place. :)
But I don't believe that a non-sexual mut'a relationship will have any abuse, if the two like one another. And if it does, I'll take care of it.
I still believe that men are good, and I have two examples of a mut'a marriage gone successfully and ended up in permanent Nikkah.
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I mean, is it really impossible to lay down some serious ground rules and train your kids to respect you and your religion so they DON'T engage in pre-marital sex? Or is it just too hard?
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I'm not sure, but I will found out soon enough when I do have kids. It's going to hard as it is, since wife is a practicing Christian and I am a semi-practicing Muslim going towards agnostic.
But you are right, muta is open to abuse, especially by rich Nawabs as highlighted by Code-Red.
Re: Mutah [temporary marriage] -- Social and cultural perspective
Aw moonshiner, I'm sorry to hear about you going agnostic. We need more rational muslims, and I hate seeing another one walk away.
Actually, evidence that men and women shouldn't communicate prior to marriage for purposes of deciding on whether to marry is pretty weak in Islam. I hold the view that you are more than welcome to communicate for such purposes. I also hold the view that girls and boys should go to co-ed schools, and that men and women should work together in co-ed working environments, and I don't think Islam contradicts it.
To say that Islam doesn't let me talk to a man, but lets me bed with him for a marriage that from the onset is outlined to last 3 days, and if I get pregnant, then...oh well - is pretty ridiculously contradictory in principal.
Re: Mutah [temporary marriage] -- Social and cultural perspective
Aw moonshiner, I'm sorry to hear about you going agnostic. We need more rational muslims, and I hate seeing another one walk away.
Well, it could change, I'm still rather young and I am still figuring things out. Wife has been trying me to convert to Christianity for quite sometime now, but that's never going to happen.
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Actually, evidence that men and women shouldn't communicate prior to marriage for purposes of deciding on whether to marry is pretty weak in Islam.
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I believe that as well; but a lot of scholars will say otherwise.
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To say that Islam doesn't let me talk to a man, but lets me bed with him for a marriage that from the onset is outlined to last 3 days, and if I get pregnant, then...oh well -
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Well, if you do get pregnant; the man still has a responsibility for that child.
But I see what you're saying.
Re: Mutah [temporary marriage] -- Social and cultural perspective
He might have responsibility, but being a single mom is NOT easy. Especially in today's world. Single women get more sick, they have more nutritional problems, their kids have more nutritional problems and they do worse in school, their kids get involved in more criminal activities than kids from intact homes, etc etc.
Scholars can say all the want. There are quack scholars that still persist with these muta'a marriages, despite the fact that the consequences can be pretty bad on the women involved, so don't even get me started on scholars. Islam comes from the Quran, not from a scholar's head. They can be wrong on many accounts. Islam isn't like Christianity - you don't need clergy to interpret for you or intervene for you.