Muslim view of the Bible

Society Religion & Philosophy
61

Firstly, i think a comparison between Moses and Jesus (re. Deuteronomy 18:18) breaks down so long as Christians insist that Jesus is Son of God/God Himself. To claim that Jesus is God but he also happens to be like Moses is pushing it to say the least.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by The Old Man: *

Minor discrepancies or errors in various translations/versions do not put me off because the full truth of God Almighty can still be seen in even some of the worst translations.
[/quote]

I think the problem is much deeper than simple differences in translation. What about, for example, where some Bibles contain verses that other Bibles omit or where a verse is excluded from one edition (take the RSV as an example) and then reinstated in a subsequent RSV print?

[quote]
My view on the Qu'ran: the Prophet Muhammed could apparantly not write and dictated it to others. If the message he heard were from God, his wording it to the scribes were already one step removed from what God told him, two steps removed when they wrote it down and he could not check accuracy
[/quote]

He could very easily check its accuracy. All that was needed was for the scribe to read back what he had dictated.

[quote]
... three steps removed since the original writings do not exist anymore.
[/quote]

Ditto for the entire Bible.

[quote]
I have seen various errors/inaccuracies/disagreements between verses in the Qu'ran and the fact that I am a guest on this, a mainly Muslim site, prevent me from discussing it because of my respect towards various people here and their views.
[/quote]

To quote your own words: "Most of [the] so-called errors/inaccuracies quoted by people can be proved not to be or due to wrong logic."

All the best.

Iqbal

62

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Axiom: *
The fact that Christ actually raised the dead and showed it to Satan makes me think any true Christian believer should satisfy a non-believers curiosity.
[/QUOTE]

Correction Axiom, That did not happen at Satan's request, but at other various ocassions of Christ's three year ministry. Satan was bluntly refused everytime he tried to trick Christ into performing a miracle. At every incident Jesus made it known that it was to glorify the Father. So you see there is a difference between, performing miracles to Glorify God, and simply conjuring up feats to usurp accolades for ones self.

Incidently, you do have a valid point, because the Bible states, on one occassion when Jesus sent out his apostles to neighbouring villages to preach and perform miracles, they returned unsuccesful. Christ did rebuke them, saying that if they had faith the size of a mustard seed they could do great deeds in His name. However He did not condem them knowing that doubt is a mere weakness in human nature, which "believers" are constantly striving to overcome. " The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak" Matthew 26

[QUOTE]

.......this test is not meant to satisfy a non-Christian. It is meant to satisfy a CHRISTIAN.
[/QUOTE]

I am certain, that no Christian worries about testing their faith on those grounds. Even though Christ instituted it, it is not the only way, and certainly not a way to test ones self.

[QUOTE]

..........As far as the will of God is concerned(although the verse doesn't say anything about God's will).............
[/QUOTE]

You are simply taking a text out of the context of the message of the Bible. You will notice that in the prayer taught by Christ himself states,
"....Thy kingdom come, Thy Will be done on earth as it is in Heaven..." So you see every action of a Christian has to reflect the will of God.

[QUOTE]

......I suggest you use it instead of running away from it.
[/QUOTE]

I am not running from anything thanks for the suggestion anyway. However if the need arises and God wills anything is possible.

So bro. Axiom, lets agree to disgree
peace

b

63

[QUOTE]
That did not happen at Satan's request, but at other various ocassions of Christ's three year ministry.
[/QUOTE]

This was exactly my point. IT DID HAPPEN. and when it did, the Satan didnot close his eyes. Whenever it happened Satan watched it. So the Satan's curiousity was fulfilled each time Jesus(PBUH) raised the dead. Jesus(PBUH) didn't raise the dead when Satan asked him but he did raise the dead at other ocassions. So you won't undergo the test when I ask you to. But I presume that you have undergone it at other occassions. Have you?

[QUOTE]
Incidently, you do have a valid point, because the Bible states, on one occassion when Jesus sent out his apostles to neighbouring villages to preach and perform miracles, they returned unsuccesful. Christ did rebuke them, saying that if they had faith the size of a mustard seed they could do great deeds in His name. However He did not condem them knowing that doubt is a mere weakness in human nature, which "believers" are constantly striving to overcome. " The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak" Matthew 26
[/QUOTE]

Supports my curiousity. The True believers are constantly striving to overcome this curiousity. I don't know, but here it doesn't seem to be the case. Here the believers are trying to prove that they don't need to satisfy anyone's curiousity.

[QUOTE]
Even though Christ instituted it, it is not the only way, and certainly not a way to test ones self.
[/QUOTE]

Now this is confusing. It is certainly not a way to test oneself, eventhough Christ instituted it? What are you saying. He is your Lord, brother. You are supposed to do what he says.

[QUOTE]
You are simply taking a text out of the context of the message of the Bible. You will notice that in the prayer taught by Christ himself states,
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]
So you see every action of a Christian has to reflect the will of God.
[/QUOTE]

Read it again

[QUOTE]
As far as the will of God is concerned(although the verse doesn't say anything about God's will), God has cleary said that any True Christian Believer will pass the test. God's will is with the true Christian believer, the one who can pass the test. It is God's will that only a True Christian Believer can pass the test.
[QUOTE]

A True Christian believer passing the test will reflect the will of God.
Furthermore, to prove that you are a true Christian and that every action of yours reflects the will of God you have to pass the test. Because if you are not a True Christian believer, how can your actions reflect the will of God. Clear now

[QUOTE]
I am not running from anything thanks for the suggestion anyway. However if the need arises and God wills anything is possible.
[/QUOTE]

The need has arised and God has willed.

[QUOTE]
So bro. Axiom, lets agree to disgree
[/QUOTE]

Better, Lets disagree to agree.

64

[quote]
Axiom: The extra 33 days for males and 66 days for female are for medical regulations.
[/quote]

Nothing about "medical" is stated.

[quote]
Axiom: What should these people do. Isn't it injustice that these people will go to Hell (according to Christianity) because they fail to understand the Scripture because they donot have the Author guiding them???.
[/quote]

According to Christianity the understanding of Scripture is not a pre-requisite for someone to be saved. The Author, the Holy Spirit, is freely available for those that ask.

[quote]
Axiom: Please correct my logic concerning the above verse.
[/quote]

I just did! Don't get confused between Science and Religion please.

[quote]
Axiom: Then why do you read the Bible if it is flawed.
[/quote]

Reading the Bible helps me understanding God Almighty. Remember that the Bible is infallible and I do have the Author advising me. As previously pointed out, the Bible is not necessary for a Christian to be saved - neither is understanding/reading/quoting/memorising the Bible.

[quote]
Axiom: I have heard that the best anti-Muslim site is answering-Islam.org. Unfortunately the site is blocked in the country I live in. I assume you have access to this site. So could you copy and PM me the pages. I mean, if its ok with you or anyone else. Because I really wish to see this site. Thanks
[/quote]

I know about the site you mention but don't frequent it. I will go and see what they write. I will PM you in due time - not necessary from the site you mentioned though. If anyone reading this do not agree, please state so and I will not send anything to Axiom. It is not my idea to cast doubts in anyone’s mind about his/her religion. I believe God will call those He wants, as and when He wants in His own time.

65

[quote]
Iqbal: Firstly, i think a comparison between Moses and Jesus (re. Deuteronomy 18:18) breaks down so long as Christians insist that Jesus is Son of God/God Himself. To claim that Jesus is God but he also happens to be like Moses is pushing it to say the least.
[/quote]

Sound logic indeed!??

Since this question gets raised time and again, let me explain:

In no way can the identity of the prophet in the text of Deuteronomy 18.18 be established from the fact that God would put his words in his mouth. With every prophet who is true this is the case and the great prophet referred to in the text must accordingly be identified from other sources.

*A prophet from among their brethren * In Deut.18v2 the Levites are told that they would not have inheritance with their brothers. The same word used in verse 18. Clearly these “brothers” indicate ONLY the Israelites AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME. No sound exegesis can be used to prove that it indicates the “brother” of Isaac. (The same point can be said of Scriptures such as Judges.21v22, 2 Sam.2v26, 2 King.23v9, 1 Chron.12v32, 2 Chron.28v15, Neh.5v1, Numbers 8v26, 2 Kings 24v12 and others). Just the previous chapter Deut.17, Moses said the King that the Israelites will appoint one day over them must come from their “brothers” and it obviously means an Israelite not some distant relative from centuries ago. Mohammed does not conform to this requirement, Jesus does.

A prophet like unto Moses ** Comparing similarities and contrasts between Moses and Jesus or Mohammed or any other prophet for that matter, does not clarify this issue since all have similarities and contrasts with Moses. As there were numerous prophets down the ages (some also with strong similarities with Moses), it is logical to assume that this prophet in Deut.18 would be uniquely like Moses in a way that none of the other prophets were. Clearly the prophet to come would emulate him in the exceptional and unique characteristics of his prophethood, not as man and husband. Indeed one would expect that God would give some indication in the prophecy of the distinguishing features of this prophet who was to be like Moses. Let’s refer to the context of the prophecy to find this striking verse which very clearly gives us an indication of the **nature of the prophet to follow:

Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew **face to face, who did all those **miraculous signs and wonders* the Lord sent him to do in Egypt – to Pharaoh and to all his officials and to the whole land.* Deut.34v10

The three distinguishing features of Moses as a prophet is clearly mentioned: he was the mediator between God and Israel, he knew the Lord face to face, and he did great signs and wonders. The prophet like him would obviously have to emulate these unique features of his prophethood. Did Muhammed possess these exceptional characteristics by which the prophet was to be recognised?

Firstly, whereas God spoke directly to Moses, so that he was a direct mediator between God and the people of Israel, the Qu’ran came from the Angel Gabriel to Muhammed and at no time did God directly communicate it to Muhammed face to face. Muhammed also did not mediate a new covenant between God and the people of Israel.

Secondly, Muhammad performed no signs and wonders. Those mentioned is not from the Qu’ran but rather from Hadith’s. Please read Surah 6.37,57 and Surah 28.48. When Mohammed’s adversaries say "Why has no sign been sent down to him from his Lord?”, Muhammed reply merely that God could send one if he wanted to but had not done so. In the same Surah we read that Muhammad said, "I have not that for which you are impatient", meaning signs and wonders such as Moses had. He goes on to say that if he had had them, the dispute between him and them would have been decided long ago. So we find that Muhammad was not a direct mediator between God and man, nor could he do any signs and wonders to confirm his office.

Jesus, the prophet like unto Moses Let’s look what contemporaries of Jesus said of him in this regard (with Jesus accepting what were said):

John.7v40 On hearing his words, some of the people said, “Surely this man is the Prophet.”
John.6v14 *After the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus did, they began to say: “Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world.”
John.4v21-26 *The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us." Then Jesus declared, "I who speaks to you am he." *
Acts.3v17-26 Peter confirmed that Jesus was this prophet
Acts.7v37 The disciple Stephen confirmed Jesus was this prophet

People that talked and knew Jesus personally were so convinced that he was this prophet that they died for this truth. The prophet referred to by Moses, is of such importance that if Muhammed was this prophet, he might have said so – but didn’t. Jesus on the other hand indicated that he was this prophet and never rebuked anyone when confronted with this comparison. CASE CLOSED.

66

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by The Old Man: *

The Old Man: Sound logic indeed!??
[/quote]

What makes little sense - and i repeat - is the argument that Jesus is not only God but he also happens to be so much like Moses at the same! At the end of the day, based on Christian descriptions of Jesus, the fulfilment of Deuteronomy 18:18 has in fact resulted in God Himself coming down to earth to live among men. This is stretching the text beyond recognition. "Yes," i hear you say, "but this God was also a Prophet"!

Iqbal

67

[QUOTE]
Nothing about "medical" is stated.
[/QUOTE]

If its a boy. After the 7 days of ceremonial cleaning:
"Then the woman must wait thirty-three days to be purified from her bleeding...."

If its a girl. After 14 days of ceremonial cleaning:
"Then she must wait sixty-six days to be purified from her bleeding..."

How can you justify that a woman remains unclean from bleeding for 66 days after giving birth to a female child. Where as the woman remains unclean from bleeding for 33 days after giving birth to a male child.

[QUOTE]
I just did! Don't get confused between Science and Religion please.
[/QUOTE]

The same God who gave us the religion also made science. He can never tell us anything unscientific in the religion he gave us because He is the one who made science.

68

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Axiom: *

Better, Lets disagree to agree.
[/QUOTE]

Yes Lets ! ...........

b

69

*What makes little sense - and i repeat - is the argument that Jesus is not only God but he also happens to be so much like Moses at the same! At the end of the day, based on Christian descriptions of Jesus, the fulfilment of Deuteronomy 18:18 has in fact resulted in God Himself coming down to earth to live among men. This is stretching the text beyond recognition. "Yes," i hear you say, "but this God was also a Prophet"! *

Iqbal

To answer..

Jesus said he was the son of man.. A son.

Who is the father of man? but God?

I believe all mankind are God's children. Argue that if you must.

And he was like Moses. Born of Jewish parents, and a decesendent of Abraham.

He brought belief and salvation to gentiles as well as jews.

When asked by the Imans/High Church of his day...which is God's holiest command?

he answered, " Love your/thy neighbor as yourself."

70

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by AvgAmericanGirl: *

And he was like Moses. Born of Jewish parents...
[/quote]

Jesus was born of Jewish parents!?

[quote]
... and a decesendent of Abraham.
[/quote]

As are millions of other Jews.

[quote]
**When asked by the Imans/High Church of his day...which is God's holiest command?

he answered, " Love your/thy neighbor as yourself."**
[/QUOTE]

The Bible actually says:

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law? Jesus replied: 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbour as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.'" (Matthew 22:36-40)

Iqbal

71

And..

very right.

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul.

Absolutely always and everywhere you look.

And love your neighbor as you would your own self.

Was God's Idea.

72

CASE RE-OPENED :)

[QUOTE]
A prophet from among their brethren In Deut.18v2 the Levites are told that they would not have inheritance with their brothers. The same word used in verse 18. Clearly these “brothers” indicate ONLY the Israelites AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME. No sound exegesis can be used to prove that it indicates the “brother” of Isaac. (The same point can be said of Scriptures such as Judges.21v22, 2 Sam.2v26, 2 King.23v9, 1 Chron.12v32, 2 Chron.28v15, Neh.5v1, Numbers 8v26, 2 Kings 24v12 and others). Just the previous chapter Deut.17, Moses said the King that the Israelites will appoint one day over them must come from their “brothers” and it obviously means an Israelite not some distant relative from centuries ago. Mohammed does not conform to this requirement, Jesus does.
[/QUOTE]

"Brothers" does not imply that the Prophet should be a an Israelite. The children of Isaac(AS) are the Jews and the children of Ishmael(AS) are the Arabs[which include Muhammad(SAWS)]. Ishmael(AS) dwelled in the presence of the jews. The following verse calls Ishmael(AS) the brother of all the jews.
"He(Ishmael) shall dwell in the presence of all his brethern." (Genesis16:12)
Therefore, Ishmael(AS) and all his children[including Muhammad(SAWS)] are the brothers of the jews. Where as the christians are the children of the Jews. The verse says that the Prophet who would be like Moses(PBUH) would be "among his bretheren" not "among his children". Therefore Muhammad(SAWS) fits into it and Jesus(PBUH) doesnot.

[QUOTE]
A prophet like unto Moses Comparing similarities and contrasts between Moses and Jesus or Mohammed or any other prophet for that matter, does not clarify this issue since all have similarities and contrasts with Moses. As there were numerous prophets down the ages (some also with strong similarities with Moses), it is logical to assume that this prophet in Deut.18 would be uniquely like Moses in a way that none of the other prophets were. Clearly the prophet to come would emulate him in the exceptional and unique characteristics of his prophethood, not as man and husband. Indeed one would expect that God would give some indication in the prophecy of the distinguishing features of this prophet who was to be like Moses. Let’s refer to the context of the prophecy to find this striking verse which very clearly gives us an indication of the nature of the prophet to follow:
[/QUOTE]

The verse says that the Prophet will be like Moses(PBUH). Which includes man and husband and every characteristic of Moses. No specification is given to any unique characteristic of his Prophethood.
Basically, the verse says 3 things:
1. The Prophet will be among the brethern of Moses
2. The Prophet will be like Moses(Not restricted to characteristics of Prophethood)
3. God would put His words into the mouth of the Prophet and he would speak whatever God commanded.

Having dealt with the first point, lets move on.

[QUOTE]
Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face, who did all those miraculous signs and wonders the Lord sent him to do in Egypt – to Pharaoh and to all his officials and to the whole land. Deut.34v10
[/QUOTE]

The verse comes under the second point I mentioned above. The Prophet will be like Moses. I have already mentioned a number of ways in which Muhammad(SAWS) is "LIKE MOSES" and Jesus(PBUH) is not. This verse speaks of only two features of Moses(PBUH), he knew the Lord face to face, and he did great signs and wonders.
1.KNEW LORD FACE TO FACE:
This refers to the fact that the Prophet would communicate with God face to face without any thing in between. Muhammad(SAWS) communicated with Allah directly(not through angel Jibrai) during the event of Miraj. At that time Allah gave him the commandment of praying 5 times a day. Is there any event when Jesus(PBUH) ever communicated with God face to face?

[QUOTE]
Secondly, Muhammad performed no signs and wonders. Those mentioned is not from the Qu’ran but rather from Hadith’s. Please read Surah 6.37,57 and Surah 28.48. When Mohammed’s adversaries say "Why has no sign been sent down to him from his Lord?”, Muhammed reply merely that God could send one if he wanted to but had not done so. In the same Surah we read that Muhammad said, "I have not that for which you are impatient", meaning signs and wonders such as Moses had. He goes on to say that if he had had them, the dispute between him and them would have been decided long ago. So we find that Muhammad was not a direct mediator between God and man, nor could he do any signs and wonders to confirm his office.
[/QUOTE]

2.DID GREAT SIGNS AND WONDERS:
The signs are mentioned in the Quran.They are described in the Hadith, not taken from the Hadith.
1. Splitting up the moon. (AL Qamr verse 1)
2. Riding to the heavens on Buraq (Al-Isra verse 1)
Now the verses you mentioned:
(6:37)
"They say. "why is not a Sign sent down to him from his Lord? "Say:"Allah hath certainly power to send down a sign: but most of them understand not.
(6:57)
Say:"For me, I (work) on a clear Sign from my lord, but ye reject Him. What ye would see hastened is not in my power. The command rests with none but Allah: He declares the Truth, and He is the best of Judges."

(28:48)
"But (now), when Truth has come to them from Ourselves, they say, "Why are not (Signs) sent to him, like those which were sent to Moses?" Do they not reject (the Signs) which were formerly sent to Moses? They say: "Two kinds of sorcery, each assisting the other!" And they say:"For us, we reject all (such things)!"

No where does Muhammad(SAWS) say that God had not sent signs. Muhammad(SAWS) said that he couldn't show them signs at their request. But only at God's will and whenever He wanted him to show them some signs. Verse (28:48) just shows another similarity between Muhammad(SAWS) and Moses(PBUH). Muhammad's(SAWS) signs were rejected by his adverseries just as Moses' (PBUH) signs were rejected by his adversaries. Were Jesus'(PBUH) signs rejected by someone?

Now lets come over to the third point. of the verse(Deutronomy18:18)
The third point is that, God would put His words into the mouth of the Prophet and he would speak whatever God commanded.
Muhammad(SAWS) was unlettered. He had no knowledge of Arabic language. When the first revelation was revealed to him, he repeated the verse even though he had no knowledge of Arabic language. How could he say a verse in the language he had no knowledge about. God put His words in Muhammad's (SAWS) mouth. That was how he was able to say the verse in a language he had no knowledge about. Muhammad(SAWS) didn't know what the verse meant but he still repeated because the words were put into his mouth. Did Jesus(PBUH) require words to be put in his mouth. No. He already knew the language in which the revelations were revealed. So God didn't have to put His words in his mouth. So Jesus(PBUH) doesn't meet up to this requirement either.

So we can conclude that in this verse, the Prophet is Muhammad(SAWS) and not Jesus(PBUH).

73

Axiom, Apologies for the abrupt answer before.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Axiom: *
This was exactly my point. IT DID HAPPEN. and when it did, the Satan didnot close his eyes......
[/QUOTE]
No he did not but neither did he wait around for a year or so to figure out something he already knew Christ could do. The purpose of his asking was purely to tempt Christ.......which is when he failed miserably.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Axiom: *.....So you won't undergo the test when I ask you to.........
[/QUOTE]

No I will not, because it is not required by God. and if it were I would do it not of my own accord but the Holy Spirit would do it through me.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Axiom: *But I presume that you have undergone it at other occassions. Have you?
[/QUOTE]

Presume all you want. The answer is still if it is not willed, It is not required.
Consider this analogy:
The purpose of a fire extinguisher is to put out fires. But for years, a lot of them just hang on walls of buildings and homes never used. However without an action of a person, in case of a fire it is just a red contraption hanging on the wall.
Similarly humans are like those cylinders with a potential of doing great deeds, but without an interaction and will of the Holy Spirit, we are mere objects. and like those extinguishers that periodically need to be tested, again without an interaction and will of the Spirit of God, we may desire to test our selves all we want, it will never happen.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Axiom: *Supports my curiousity. The True believers are constantly striving to overcome this curiousity.

[/QUOTE]

Read again; I never supported your curosity, however I did say you had a valid point in saying that believers lacked the drive to do God's will because of human weaknesses, that they strive to overcome.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Axiom: *............. Here the believers are trying to prove that they don't need to satisfy anyone's curiousity.........
[/QUOTE]

I think you are contradicting yourself here. Read.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Axiom: *......Besides, this test is not meant to satisfy a non-Christian. It is meant to satisfy a CHRISTIAN. It will tell whether he is a true believer or not.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Axiom: *.........It is certainly not a way to test oneself, eventhough Christ instituted it? What are you saying. He is your Lord, brother. You are supposed to do what he says.
[/QUOTE]

Yes No doubt, He is my Lord. and I will do it WHEN HE SAYS SO, NOT YOU. No where in that scripture verse does it say we should "test to see it works", neither does it ask us to use it as a ploy to impress those who do not believe.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Axiom: *The need has arised and God has willed.
[/QUOTE]

No it has not. Do not confuse your will to have things accomplished in your time, the will of God, or else there won't be any difference between you and a sucide bomber who thinks he is doing the "will of God".

b

74

[QUOTE]
Axiom, Apologies for the abrupt answer before.
[/QUOTE]

Apologies accepted

[QUOTE]
No he did not but neither did he wait around for a year or so to figure out something he already knew Christ could do. The purpose of his asking was purely to tempt Christ.......which is when he failed miserably.
[/QUOTE]

That's right. Satan knew that Christ could do it yet he asked him to do it just to tempt the Christ. But I don't know whether you can do it or not. Therefore I am asking out of curiosity not to tempt you. If I would have already known that you would pass the test and I would have still asked you to do it, then I would have been tempting you. Then you were supposed to do what Jesus(PBUH) did. That is, don't satisfy my request. But since I am not tempting you or anyone else, you should satisfy my sincere curiosity just as the True Christians tried to at the time of Jesus (PBUH).

[QUOTE]
No I will not, because it is not required by God. and if it were I would do it not of my own accord but the Holy Spirit would do it through me.
[/QUOTE]

God doesn't require anything from us. He is ALL-POWERFULL. According to the Bible, God said that a True Christian believer will not die if he drinks deadly poison. If a True Christian believer drinks deadly poison, he will stay alive. THIS IS GODS WILL. "NO TRUE CHRISTIAN BELIEVER WILL DIE WHEN HE DRINKS DEADLY POISON". Why won't he die. Because it is God's WILL that a true Christian believer stays alive after he drinks deadly poison. So if you are a True Christian believer, God would make you live even after you drink deadly poison. If nothing happens to you after you take poison than it would mean that the Holy Spirit had shown this sign through you.

[QUOTE]
Presume all you want. The answer is still if it is not willed, It is not required.
[/QUOTE]

It is willed. GOD's WILL is,"If a True Christian believer drinks deadly poison he will not die" God's will is written in the verse. He only wants a True Christian believer and no one else to pass the test.

[QUOTE]
Consider this analogy:
The purpose of a fire extinguisher is to put out fires. But for years, a lot of them just hang on walls of buildings and homes never used. However without an action of a person, in case of a fire it is just a red contraption hanging on the wall.
Similarly humans are like those cylinders with a potential of doing great deeds, but without an interaction and will of the Holy Spirit, we are mere objects. and like those extinguishers that periodically need to be tested, again without an interaction and will of the Spirit of God, we may desire to test our selves all we want, it will never happen.
[/QUOTE]

The fire extinguishers just hang on the walls. They don't extinguish fire neither do they cause fire. They cannot be compared to humans who have a full oppurtunity to do whatever they want to. If human beings don't do good, they don't just sit there doing nothing(like fire extinguishers) They do bad. But I'll still try to explain using the same example.
CONSIDER THE ANALOGY:
I make fire extinguishers and say that only fire extinguishers can put out the fire. You say that fire extinguishers will not put out the fire unless I want them to. This is wrong, because the fire extinguishers will put out the fire if I want to or if some one else wants to because I SAID THAT THEY WILL PUT OUT THE FIRE. And when I said that they will put out the fire it means that they will put out the fire under any cicumstances. Now if the fire extinguisher is taken and used on a fire and if the fire doesnot go down then either I am saying some thing wrong or that thing with which u tried to put out the fire is not a fire extinguisher. But I can never be wrong. Therefore that thing with which u tried to put out the fire is not a fire extinguisher.

[QUOTE]
Yes No doubt, He is my Lord. and I will do it WHEN HE SAYS SO, NOT YOU. No where in that scripture verse does it say we should "test to see it works", neither does it ask us to use it as a ploy to impress those who do not believe.
[/QUOTE]

HE HAS ALREADY SAID IT. God said that a True Christian believer will not die if he drinks deadly poison. WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT HIM TO SAY. Now, whenever, a True Christian believer drinks deadly poison he will not die because GOD SAID that he will not die. No where does the verse say that you should not test to see if it works. The verse says that it will work. But only on a True Christian believer.

[QUOTE]
Read again; I never supported your curosity, however I did say you had a valid point in saying that believers lacked the drive to do God's will because of human weaknesses, that they strive to overcome.
[/QUOTE]

You said this:

[QUOTE]
Incidently, you do have a valid point, because the Bible states, on one occassion when Jesus sent out his apostles to neighbouring villages to preach and perform miracles, they returned unsuccesful. Christ did rebuke them, saying that if they had faith the size of a mustard seed they could do great deeds in His name. However He did not condem them knowing that doubt is a mere weakness in human nature, which "believers" are constantly striving to overcome. " The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak" Matthew 26
[/QUOTE]

If Jesus(PBUH) didn't want the Christians to convince the non-Christians then he would have never sent his apostles to the neighbouring villages to perform miracles. GOD WANTS THE CHRISTIANS TO GO TO THE NON-CHRISTIANS AND DO MIRACLES. You showed a verse that Supports my point.

The following statement made by me is wrong because the test is meant to satisfy a non-Christian. If it was not then Jesus(PBUH) would not have sent his apostles to do miracles in the near by villages. I am a human, I can make mistakes, right? So try and satisfy me just as the apostles of Jesus(PBUH) tried to satisfy the people of the nearby villages.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Axiom: ......Besides, this test is not meant to satisfy a non-Christian. It is meant to satisfy a CHRISTIAN. It will tell whether he is a true believer or not.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]
No it has not. Do not confuse your will to have things accomplished in your time, the will of God, or else there won't be any difference between you and a sucide bomber who thinks he is doing the "will of God".
[/QUOTE]

I do not confuse it. As we can see above, it is the will of God that a True Christian believer goes out and does miracles to convince people that Christianity is the true religion. If my will to have things accomplished in my time makes me a sucide bomber then all the people to whom Jesus(PBUH) sent his apostles were also sucide bombers because they also had the will of accomplishing things in their time. Many of the people got impressed and became christians. So now you are indirectly saying that christians were sucide bombers before they accepted Christianity. Don't confuse yourself while trying to refuse to perform the test. First you said that it doesn't matter whether a person performs the test or not, even though Christ instituted it. And now you are calling people you dont even know sucide bombers. Now we know who is really confused.

75

** Where among all the verses of the Qur'an is it mentioned that the Injil or Tawrat is corrupted... it is written that the Jews -... NOT THE CHRISTIANS... "ALTER THE MEANING OF THE PASSAGES" from the Tawrat while they are explaining them.
* Would God Almighty permit the adultrations of His sacred Word. If the Muslims believe he preserves His Word in the Quran, why should He not have preserved it then?*

Good question. Would God Almighty permit adultrations of his words? PERIOD.

By Anyone?
No..he would not.

I truly believe he would not. This is why he showed himself to all of us in the ways we are able to understand.

If I may make a point~~~>

So many have done their best to discredit beliefs.. Why? Thing is.. God brought us our beliefs and his commands on how to follow them. If one believes in God's Words. His infalibility...one would know.. he is with us all.

Number one command is?
You (To all people) shall not kill.

76

AvgAmericanGirl

Number one command is?
You (To all people) shall not kill.

Could you please explain the reason for your number one Commandment. As I thought the last few posts were dealing with Jesus and Moses in line with Deutronomy 18:18?

We don't want to stereotype now do we!

77

Axiom,
I must apologise to you once again. I believe I used a very bad analogy while comparing your will to that of a sucide bomber. Humans tend to err at times, however that is no excuse for shooting my mouth off.
I will be more careful in the future.
:blush:

b

78

Hey, let's all cut the small talk...You to your ways and we to ours...Our religion tells us to say it every time we feel our peace is being disturbed...You can go ahead and believe that Isa (AS) was (Nauzoobillah) the son of god while for us it'll still remain the highest form of shirk that anyone is capable of, May Allah (SWT) protect Muslims from it, yet we'll respect it...We may not accept it, but we'll respect it...

79

<~~ In Shirk.

( A Christian)

I think..I believe, my heart tells me its right to believe that God in his great wisdom understood that people would understand things in their own ways.

Perhaps this is Kaffir..I'm certain of it. I know muslim's would concider my statement Kaffir. As it is in Islam.

But.. Don't you think God has a plan? For all of us? Don't you think its logical that he would?

I think he does.

80

Something weird occured to me.

I was writing why I did not mean a sterotype in the words..

You (To All People) shall not kill.

And my entire post disappeared before my eyes..

No. I did not even finish it..or try to post it!

You (To All People) shall not kill.

means exactly that.

A message to All people. Everyone.

Read it Again!

Why take the meaning as sterotype? Was not the intention.