How do Muslims know which parts of the Bible are accurate or not? Are the only accurate descriptions of Jesus or even from the Old Testament from the Quran?
I guess the 2nd part of my inquiry would be if Jesus’ message of peace, non-violence, tolerance and acceptace are accepted by Muslims (since Islam pre-existed the other religons), why was the spread of Islam encouraged through warfare?
oops. Posted this in another thread. It's more appropriate here.
i started reading parts of the Bible when i was nine, encouraged by my father to do so so i could better appreciate the similarities and differences between Islam and Christianity. According to Islam, the Bible is one of the Divinely Revealed Books (a few others being the Torah, Zabur, and Quran). Being one of the Divinely Revealed Books, the Bible occupies an important place in Islam. Period.
In general, the parts of it that Islam believes are valid are the segments regarding The One God, the parts of the miraculous birth of Prophet Jesus (peace and blessings be upon him (pbuh)), how some prophets were endowed by God's Will with the capability of performing miracles, the Divinity of God, monotheism, the principles of do unto others as you would have them do unto you, love and respect towards the poor, sick, orphans, etc. While the position of the Bible is unique in Islam, Islam stipulates that, over time, the Bible as it was originally Revealed was altered by human beings. This is why, according to Islam, the necessity for the Quran as a Final Book (that Islam believes has, and will forever, remain unaltered). Some of the significant parts that, according to Islam, were altered are the parts about Prophet Jesus's (pbuh) being the "Son of God" or God Himself; the Quran states that Prophet Jesus (pbuh) never usurped these titles for himself and always asserted that he was exclusively a Prophet and whatever miracles he was able to perform were solely through Allah's Will. The Quran discusses his miraculous birth and by extension extends much respect towards his mother. Simultaneously, there is NO position in Islam for Mary (peace be upon her) to be referred to as the "mother of God". This is in complete dissonance, from an Islamic point of view, with the fundamental tenets of monotheism. So, although Muslims are supposed to love and revere Prophet Jesus (pbuh) and his mother, the reverence goes to the point of consciously accepting them as human beings assigned wonderfully special tasks by God's Will.
(Not really related - but i was talking once with a nonMuslim lady and a Muslim lady, and the latter stated to the former that she had no wishes for her to revert to Islam because she wanted her relationship with Prophet Jesus (pbuh) (i.e., admiring and respecting him) to continue in the same manner as it presently was).
i'll deal with the parts regarding the Quran appearing to be full of "many rules and punishments" later, as time permits hopefully. To the one who posted the above concerns - do you have any questions/comments regarding what i wrote above?
Does the Quran have any of the teachings of Jesus or speak of the apostles? If the text of the Bible has been altered (just 200 years after the New Testament was cannonized), is the whole Bible invalid? Did God make a mistake in the way He revealed the Holy Scriptures, or did He not foresee man's mistakes in the translation process?
"Some of the significant parts that, according to Islam, were altered are the parts about Prophet Jesus's (pbuh) being the "Son of God".
I'm no bible-thumper, but calling that a "significant part" would appear to be a bit of an understatement. I think this difference alone would be enough to make most christians disbelieve any assertion that the two religions are linked... regardless of the feelings from the muslim end.
I think that devout christians would be offended by the notion that Islam is more "evolved" than christianity (not to mention difficult to reconcile), just as Jews would, in turn, be offended by the similar belief christians have in relation to their religion.
my 2 cents, by the way, I don't mean to change the topic
Seminole,
Does the Quran have any of the teachings of Jesus or speak of the apostles?
Yes.
The following verses:
Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God hath chosen thee and purified thee - chosen thee above the women of all nations / “O Mary! worship Thy Lord devoutly: Prostrate thyself, and bow down (in prayer) with those who bow down” / …]Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God / “He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous” / She said: “O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?” He said: "Even so: God createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, ‘Be,’ and it is! / "And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel / "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "‘I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God’s leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by God’s leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe / "’(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me / “‘It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight’” / When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) God?" Said the disciples: "We are God’s helpers: We believe in God, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims." {III.42-52}
If the text of the Bible has been altered (just 200 years after the New Testament was cannonized), is the whole Bible invalid?
i don’t think so.
Only parts of it - the ones that have been altered, according to Islam are considered invalid. There are many teachings in the Bible that parallel those found in the Quran (stuff about helping the invalid and weakest members of a society, exhibiting truth and justice in all of one’s dealings, etc.).
Did God make a mistake in the way He revealed the Holy Scriptures, or did He not foresee man’s mistakes in the translation process?
Neither - in my opinion.
i believe God wanted to provide them with an opportunity, a chance to stay on the path. When (according to Islam) the words were altered, that was a break in the trust between God and those He had entrusted with the Bible.
This might seem backwards (and closed-minded) to yourself, but in Islam and as a Muslim, i believe that God is aware, all along, of what is going to occur. i have discussed this omnipotent concept with friends of mine who are nonMuslims and i realize it may seem challenging to digest - especially coming from someone who simultaneously doesn’t perceive anything backwards, or wrong, with that. i guess we will have this difference.
From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will God show them what it is they have done. {V. 13-14} Please please please bear in mind that this does NOT mean that all nonMuslims are supposed to be loathed in Islam, nor that all Muslims are perfect saints on earth. This is just ONE quote i have quoted from the Quran… To holistically understand the position of Jews and Christians in Islam, the “People of the Book” as they are referred to, one would have to study far, far more than just this one quote :flower1:
Hope this suffices for now. More later regarding the peace-and-warrior aspects.
Stu,
Fair enough.
Not to side-track the issue but while we are discussing all of this - my Christian Lebanese friend believes that Prophet Jesus (pbuh) is, literally, the son of God, but in other sources i have read that he is to be perceived of as God himself. Does it make a substantial difference whether one believes one or the other - according to Christianity is it 'wrong' to believe that he is the son of God rather than God himself ('wrong' is not the best choice of words, but can't think of a better one at the moment)?
In its original state, as brought by Isa (pbuh) one of the 4 holy books of our deen, however the version edited and rewritten by Paul and Co loses the status of the divine original.
We reepect it out of its devine origins, but now it cannot be of much use to us in issues of Islamic jurispudence, ect.
Personally I've read the Gideons version and its a nice piece.
Thank you for the links, Nadia. To be truthful I have not read much of the Quran, and that obviously puts me in an uneducated position. I, like many Americans, wanted to learn more of Islam post 9/11. I read pieces of the Quran, but relied more on interpretations of others.
Is it accurate to say that the Quran tells that Jesus was a sign to show the way to the Jews and that some ignored it – (current Jews) and some listened (Christians), but those were led astray by inaccurate translations? Since only a scattering of Jesus’ actual words are recorded accurately in the Bible, Mohammed was sent to give the final word?
Is there any record of which quotes of Jesus are accurate, or is one gospel more reliable than another? Are the Old Testament and the New Testament equally inaccurate? There are many, many arguments regarding the Bible’s authenticity or lack of thereof by people much more intelligent and studied than myself, but it sounds like Islam believes that a HUGE amount of inaccuracies occurred from the time of the writing of the Gospels until Mohammed’s time (vis a vis the length of time the Old Testament has existed).
Do Muslims believe it intentional (deceptive) of the authors of the Bible, or just a grossly inaccurate translation? For example, as many times as “The Son of God” is mentioned, someone either really screwed up that translation, all of the apostles had totally misunderstood Jesus, or it was intentional on the part of the translators, authors or Catholic Church to lead the flock astray. I’m not trying to invalidate your (or Islam’s) beliefs on this matter, because I have always been inquisitive about Christian scripture.
I don’t think that your beliefs are backwards or close-minded at all. I probably use that term more than I should, but is usually reserved for those who use sanctimony and self-righteousness as the basis for their arguments. If someone talks openly and non-judgmental on any issue, I will give respect to their point of view. I haven't learned how to walk on water yet.
I believe that God is omnipotent as well, and that is one reason why I believe that He wouldn’t declare His original Book invalid or leave 2 billion of His people in the dark after 1400 years of His "real" message being revealed.
Hi Nadia,
I understand how difficult it is for a muslim who received Islam through their mother’s milk, to be unbiased on the subject. In comparison, to even fathom errors in the Quran would be an outrageous blasphemy; punishable by death in some countries. However if the Quran says there are errors in the previously revealed books, I believe it is one’s duty to investigate those “so-called” errors.
Some helpful material here
Please investigate. Maybe you will understand why christians believe in what they believe. Surely you will find more “Stuff” that you could add to your knowledge on the subject.
p.s: By the way what did you think about my response on the “women intelligence” topic?
b
Bible in its unaltered form we muslims believe in it since we believe in Jesus(as) , we dont believe jesus(as) was the son of God, the Trinity or the holy ghost.
Quran has many teachings of Jesus(as) I will keep it short here
An examination of the verses about Jesus (as) in the Qur'an indicates that Jesus (as) neither died nor was killed, but he was raised to the presence of Allah: in Surat an-Nisa, it is related that Jesus (as) was not killed but raised to the presence of Allah. The related verse follows:
And (on account of) their saying, "We killed the Messiah, ‘Isa son of Maryam, Messenger of Allah." They did not kill him and they did not crucify him but it was made to seem so to them. Those who argue about him are in doubt about it. They have no real knowledge of it, just conjecture. But they certainly did not kill him. Allah raised him up to Himself. Allah is Almighty, All-Wise. (Surat an-Nisa: 157-158)
How we know which part is accurate or not, well all the previous messengers delivered the same message about Allah, and their original teachings were all altered and changed. We have to Quran to show what was the truth about it.
About Quran having errors wo many have challenged it none so far has been able to show any errors in it. Quran tells us to ponder on it and challenges us to find any errors in it. Does ur bible have anything like that? You bible has undergone so much modifications that its original message is lost now. While the Quran has been preserved in its original form upto now and Allah has promised to guard it Himself.
Yes we received islam from our parents but they never told ut o blindly follow it, we questioned it, studied other faiths as well, and conclusion is Islam is the truth.
Many ppl are converts, even after sept 11 there are so many converts they dont receive it through their mothers milk as u call it, still they convert and see the truth in it.
Re: Muslim view of the Bible
.
Seminole, a few thoughts from me if i may:
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
Is it accurate to say that the Quran tells that Jesus was a sign to show the way to the Jews and that some ignored it – (current Jews) and some listened (Christians), but those were led astray by inaccurate translations?
[/quote]
Jesus (as) himself came with miraculous signs from God as a Messenger to the Children of Israel. This is repeated in many passages of the Qur'an (e.g. 3:49, 5:110). Other descriptions of him in the Qur'an mention the fact that he:
was born of a virgin birth (3:45-47, 19:16-22);
was taught the Torah and confirmed it (3:48, 50);
made permissible things that were formerly prohibited (3:50);
is titled the Messiah (4:157)
foretold the advent of a future Messenger (61:6)
... and more.
And that God characterized his followers with compassion and mercy:
"We sent after them Jesus, the son of Mary, and bestowed on him the Injil (Gospel); and We ordained in the hearts of those who followed him compassion and mercy..." (57:27)
[quote]
Since only a scattering of Jesus' actual words are recorded accurately in the Bible, Mohammed was sent to give the final word?
[/quote]
With the exception of Prophet Muhammad (s) all the previous Prophets were succeeded by a Prophet that came after them. In this respect, Jesus (as) is no different. Jesus was also given the role of clarifying the disputes that had arisen among the Children of Israel:
"When Jesus came with clear signs, he said: 'Now have i come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the points on which you dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me." (43:63)
Prophet Muhammad (s) did exactly the same - correcting the differences about how people viewed the teachings of former Prophets and Scripture.
[quote]
Is there any record of which quotes of Jesus are accurate, or is one gospel more reliable than another?
[/quote]
It is open to dispute whether the four canonical Gospels that we have today - Matthew, Mark, Luke and John - together reflect or form what the Qur'an calls the Injil (Gospel). Even among Christians there is a theory that these Gospels had a common source that has not survived. Perhaps that earlier work gave a more accurate account of what Jesus (as) said and did? Luke himself points out that "Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled..." (Luke 1:1) so it seems clear that a number of "gospels" were already in circulation around that time. Reference is sometimes made to the Gospel of Barnabas but this could itself be just another spurious work.
[quote]
Are the Old Testament and the New Testament equally inaccurate?
[/quote]
I'd like to come back to the question you asked earlier: "How do Muslims know which parts of the Bible are accurate or not?" I think there's basically three rules that can be applied here:
Muslims accept as true and accurate those Biblical narratives that are confirmed by the Qur'an or the teachings of Prophet Muhammad (s). This would include, among other things, some details on the lives of the Prophets that are mentioned both in the Bible and the Qur'an, Noah's Ark, the parting of the Red Sea, the existence of Angels, sin and repentance, the Devil and of course the fundamental truth of there being One true God.
A rejection of those Biblical teachings that contradict the Qur'an or the teachings of Prophet Muhammad (s). Examples of which would include the killing of Jesus (as), that Abraham was asked to sacrifice Isaac and not Ishmael, a Trinitarian concept of God and so on.
Where the Qur'an or Prophet Muhammad (s) neither confirm nor deny something found in the Bible the safest approach is to withhold judgement unless there is some compelling evidence that suggests the Biblical account is either accurate or inaccurate.
[quote]
Do Muslims believe it intentional (deceptive) of the authors of the Bible, or just a grossly inaccurate translation?
[/quote]
The text was probably affected by one or more of the following:
Deliberate tampering
Careless scribal errors
Spurious or anonymous writings superceding more authoritative ones
Inaccurate translations and interpretations
[quote]
For example, as many times as "The Son of God" is mentioned, someone either really screwed up that translation, all of the apostles had totally misunderstood Jesus, or it was intentional on the part of the translators, authors or Catholic Church to lead the flock astray.
[/quote]
This could be a case of inaccurate interpretation rather than any tampering of the text itself. The title "son of God" is applied to many individuals in the Bible (including the OT) not just to Jesus. It gives it an honorific connotation as opposed to signifying that any individual so titled is somehow God's "begotten" son. If Jesus earns a special status by virtue of being called "son of God" then that same status should be accorded to others as well (including those described as being God's "firstborn").
In some places in the New Testament it describes people "worshipping" Jesus. However, if one considers this in Aramaic (and possibly even the Greek or Latin?) the text usually says nothing more than the fact that someone "prostrated" before Jesus. Prostration doesn't necessarily equate to worship. However, a translator or commentator could quite easily amend the significance of passages like this based on his own theological preconceptions of who Jesus was and what the text should say about him. Matthew 28:17 reads: "When they saw him (Jesus), they worshipped him..." (NIV). How does this compare with what actually took place?
And Allah knows best.
Iqbal
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
I believe that God is omnipotent as well, and that is one reason why I believe that He wouldn’t declare His original Book invalid or leave 2 billion of His people in the dark after 1400 years of His "real" message being revealed.
[/QUOTE]
There is something wrong in the reasoning here... If only I could put it in words :)
Nadia-
"my Christian Lebanese friend believes that Prophet Jesus (pbuh) is, literally, the son of God, but in other sources i have read that he is to be perceived of as God himself. Does it make a substantial difference whether one believes one or the other"
As I've said before, I'm no Christian scholar, but I'm pretty sure all the Christian sects (Catholic, Protestant, Lutheran, Baptist etc...) share the same core belief that Jesus was the Son of God, who died for our sins (hence, he is referred to as the Savior).
-Stu
Thanks for the answers, Iqbal1089. I actually have to work today and will read more carefully later
Seminole, Thanks for your patience.
You are not necessarily in an “uneducated” position as long as you genuinely possess the willingness to learn more. Same applies for those of us Muslims who should study more of Christianity and other faiths. Iqbal1089 appears as though he has, which is IMO wonderful.
As well as the informative answers provided by Iqbal above to this query, perhaps if possible i think i would also add just one more if i may - i read in Islam a short history by Karen Armstrong that sometimes the modifications were undertaken in order to make it more palatable for nonChristians. She specifically mentioned the names of some individuals who did this and in this section of the book she provides some contextual notes on it; i don’t know to what extent that’s accurate, but just thought i’d mention it anyways. i think it’s in the beginning couple of chapters.
Iqbal’s point regarding there always being a succession of Prophets (the sole exception being the case of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)), that each of them was sent in order to re-correct the interpretation of the message that was Revealed before them, is accurate. Prophet Muhammad also undertook the same task.
With his exception, all the Prophets (including the ones who are specifically named in the Quran, such as Noah, Solomon, Ibrahim, Jesus (peace be upon them all)) were succeeded by another. Regarding your comment that you do not believe God would “leave 2 billion of His people in the dark after 1400 years of His “real” message being revealed” - good. It’s a fair comment.
Would humbly just add that, according to Islam, Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) is to return one day from heaven (where he was taken in order to be saved from the crucifixion) in order to reaffirm the monotheism of the message he received and, according to Islam, refute that he asserted he was related to God. i think in this manner, one of the purposes would be not to leave those 2 billion people ‘in the dark’. But that’s Islam stance; i respect all differences.
You mentioned that you have not read much of the Quran. i am sure you have researched on the 'net for information regarding Islam. As a friend i would just add a quick footnote - there are some well-intentioned sites out there prepared by Muslims but sometimes the info. presented is inaccurate, or presented in a manner that really turns one off from wanting to learn about Islam. The sentiments i receive from the website is ‘you’re-wrong- i’m-right-end-of-story’. Simultaneously there are also some excellent Islamic websites. As with anything one comes across, study with a healthy dose of open-mindedness - which i think you already possess. IMHO the only way to really understand Islam - apart from all the political, social, cultural baggage Muslims imbibe into it - is to read the Quran.
Haven’t read this article in its entirety, but thought you might find it interesting: The Bible led me to Islam, Abdul Malik LeBlanc
Blitz,
Thanks for prejudging me 
:flower1: i am not certain how you know that i have received Islam through my “mother’s milk”. Is it possible that a Muslim female might have studied the Quran independently and with a desire to rid herself of the cultural baggages she received from her family ? In your opinion, is it possible for a Muslim female to think and act independently, without her family holding a gun to her head ordering her to believe in Allah? i suggest - rather than supposing you know details of my religious upbringing, you challenge my thinking, question my beliefs - in order to prove me wrong.
You will find it of interest to note that God urges that one approach the Quran with a thinking mind, not a shut-off intellect. "We have now bestowed upon you from on high a divine writ containing all that you ought to bear in mind: will you not, then, use your reason?" {XXI.10}
Thus clearly do We spell out these messages unto people who use their reason {XXX.28}
If i was not using my reason, or my faculties for thinking, then i don’t think i would stand much chance within myself of believing in the accuracy of the Quran. i can fool others, not myself. No one holds a gun to my head instructing me to be a Muslim, i have my own free will. :flower1:
In the Quran, all of humanity is instructed to ponder and reflect upon God’s “signs” - the intricate workings of the universe, how life was created, the sun, the moon. If you have ever had one of those moments where you just wonder - how did all of this life come into being, there must be a final purpose to these diverse forms of existence on this planet - then you know what i am talking about.
Some helpful material here http://answering-islam.org/
i have read that website, thank you. http://answering-christianity.com
p.s: By the way what did you think about my response on the “women intelligence” topic?
Thank you for directing me towards that post. i will respond to that in that thread.
Even if a book is adulterated, I don’t think anyone should go around challenging people’s beliefs. I don’t know how can someone believe that a human being can take a ride on a pony to paradise, but not believe in trinity. Christianity is for Christians and Islam is for Muslims, keep your own faiths, and look for adulteration within your own books, and not other people’s books. It is very insulting to believers.
Re: Muslim view of the Bible
Great question. Here’s my take on it (hope others will correct me if any of it seems inaccurate):
Many parts of the Quran were Revealed during a period of continuous conflicts (for eg., while Muslims were in Mecca and the Quraysh’s particular responses as Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) started to preach in public, or, also later on between the Quraysh in Mecca and the newly-formed community of Muslims in Medina). That is why several verses in the Quran deal with warfare, hostilities, and so on. You have to realize that Arabia at this time was a land of constant conflicts, mostly tribal-based. Muslims refer to pre-Islamic Arabia as jaahiliyat, the time of ignorance. Now — in a Time magazine piece last year, Karen Armstrong stated that, “Extremists such as Osama bin Laden like to quote such [war] verses but do so selectively. They do not include the exhortations to peace, which in almost every case follow these more ferocious passages.”
i think it’s an exceedingly common misperception that Islam was spread through the sword, warfare. Infact, compulsion in religion is explicitly rejected by God: “Let there be no compulsion in religion” {II.256} How is it possible that Islam (not Muslims, but Islam) would advocate the forced compelling of people to become Muslims if God has already categorically rejected that this practice should occur?
i don’t know if you have heard of the historian Edward Gibbon, the English historian who published The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, among other works. In his History of the Saracen Empire (1870), he states that, “The greatest success of Muhammed’s life was effected by sheer moral force without the stroke of a sword.” The book should be available in the history sections of most major bookstores.
i’ll be happy to address any more questions regarding this topic, if you have any, Seminole.
What is the Muslim belief as to why God chose this group of *jaahiliyat * to reveal His message? Did the Jews lose favor with God? Because they had always been the "chosen people".
Even with Biblical errors, the Quran is drastically different from the scriptures that His people had been following for centuries. The sharia law for example is not the same law that he had given to Moses. Why didn't God reveal to Jesus the inaccuracies of the scripture he quoted? Christian scriptures and the "words of Jesus" would have to have been totally misinterpreted, if just 600 years later God revealed sharia law. How could there be more than (1) God-given law (Moses vs sharia)?
If the reason was to complete The Message, why didn't He finish giving the message to "the people of the book"? Why did He start all over and give it all to the Arabs in one complete message? Why didn't He at least reveal it to a more culturely or spiritually advanced people than the Arabs of the time?
The Bible has a nice flow of the Fire and Brimstone laws of the Old Testament, into Christ's teachings of a peaceful, idealistic life based on prayer, loving, forgiving, tolerance, giving, non-judging and a belief in one God through him. Jesus showed the potential for man to be God-like. It is puzzling as to why God's next message would be to a violent tribal society with more of the Fire and Brimstone texts.