Muslim Teacher Suspended For Wearing Veil

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41

Re: Minister says veil teacher should be sacked

ahhh thats clears things a little it further, so she can not be in class alone but has to be there with a teacher, and that teacher could be male or female.

Now Informed Consent, the type of work these assistants do, is there a performance constraint if she is in a veil when she is working in a class with a male teacher?

if so, she needs to go, if not then there is no issue.

42

Re: Minister says veil teacher should be sacked

she will do whatever i order her to do.......i am da boss:D
here comes serious reply

43

Re: Minister says veil teacher should be sacked

but are there specific job responsibilities and requirements?

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44

Re: Minister says veil teacher should be sacked

she will do photo copy, making resources, preparing wall display, supervising a group of kids inside class before my eyes who are doing separate set of activities which i have planned, she will support SEN children inside class before my eyes in a corner, she will set equipement for the activities, etc.
yes it would be very difficult for male teacher to deal with her in class

45

Re: Minister says veil teacher should be sacked

teaching assistants also lookafter kids in playgroud during lunch and morning break...........term teaching is not used for them...but supporting.

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Re: Minister says veil teacher should be sacked

I view occults as relgions but with just fewer members. And I know you weren't equating the kkk with judaism, I just saw an opening to pick on you ;)

I think the main contention (that is being used to justify a firing) is that she is treating her male counterparts differently than her females ones, Is this legal? Should you be allowed to treat co-workers differently because of your religion?

The position a teacher is placed in is very unique. Sports stars, rappers, and movie stars I believe have more of a surface effect on children while a teachers influence is likely to go much deeper than that. I believe a child's teacher who dresses like a hooker verse a movie star who does the same would have the greater and lasting impression on the child's view of "what women are" and how they are to be viewed in society. While the influence of the parents will go deeper and beyond both teachers & movie stars a teacher is with them several days a week, several hours a day, and while movie/rap stars can be easily labled as 'fake' teachers cannot be. I can imagine how difficult it would be to explain that the image the teacher (the one dressed as a hooker) is giving off is incorrect but everything else she's teaching is correct, I think that would create too much of a conflict in a child's brain.
Then again I might be giving way to much influencial credit to teachers (putting what I said into real life application).

(I'm not comparing Islam garb to hookers, just a vivid example)

47

Re: Minister says veil teacher should be sacked

I know in Pakistan ladies do veil but also drive cars, I know a lady I think shukria Khatoon veiled Pilot, she flew a plane wearing veil with co-pilot men.......but again that is diff context. I dont think veil is a hindrance in driving a tank even.

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48

Re: Minister says veil teacher should be sacked

[quote=“underthedome”]

**I view occults as relgions but with just fewer members. And I know you weren’t equating the kkk with judaism, I just saw an opening to pick on you :wink: **

bah

**I think the main contention (that is being used to justify a firing) is that she is treating her male counterparts differently than her females ones, Is this legal? Should you be allowed to treat co-workers differently because of your religion? **

I mean covering her face when she talks to male counterparts is not dealing wit them differently, she is still interacting, she is still doing what she is being asked to do. They dont have to look at her face..I have worked with women in hijab in past, actually work with her now and her hijab has never been an issue, yeah I suppose when she closes her office and is meeting some women she works with she may take the hijab off, dunn bother me none. yes veil is more than hijab but unless having the face uncovered impacts her work what is the issue.

so now if she said she woud have her niqab on at all times this argument goes away then?

**The position a teacher is placed in is very unique. Sports stars, rappers, and movie stars I believe have more of a surface effect on children while a teachers influence is likely to go much deeper than that. **

dude you got to be kidding me… look around. You really think that teens are effected more by their teachers than their sports heros or music idols?

**I believe a child’s teacher who dresses like a hooker verse a movie star who does the same would have the greater and lasting impression on the child’s view of “what women are” and how they are to be viewed in society. **

if we were to agree with this then we would also require that teachers dress in a modest manner. I have seen teachers dressed in a way that they would get fired if they were in a corporate setting.

I fundamentally agree with all this, but as I stated earlier, there are no rules on the book, so now if they are creating rules thats a diff issue, but it appears that they are twisting the equal treatment angle to fill in the place of a gap in their rule set. So either they need to grow some ding dongs and create rules that forbid religious items from public schools, which I will be in support of, provided it is done equally, or indicate that this is a performance issue and demonstrate it. I can not go along with roundabout arguments that the minister seems to be making.

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49

Re: Minister says veil teacher should be sacked

if that is deemed the case, then she should not be teaching in a public school in the interest of the education of the children.

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50

Re: Minister says veil teacher should be sacked

I said that in context of male teachers as they dont like it so they dont want to support it and feel uncomfortable while communicating with her........ she is involved in provision of material resources, and supporting kids with disabilities and learning difficulties, ......
I just read the detail she is involved in some kinda teaching EAL.. initially havent read the whole story, as I am aware teaching assistant cant teach but support.

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Re: Minister says veil teacher should be sacked

But again the situation would be working/supporting in presence of teacher incharge......as she knows urdu/punjabi/arabic and most of the students are from pakistan and india, some are from other ethnic minorities.......so this group of students are familiar and comfortable with the idea of veil as she is wearing it, and she is supporting the teacher in his communication to these children, whose first language is not english.......that is again assisting and working closely but not teaching. So teachers are in real need of support like this. She is acting as a source of communication between teacher and students......because she knows English and pupils' first language. In general routine teaching assistant also work with children who have special educational needs i.e hearing impaired, visually impaired, autistic spectrum disorders, mobility problems.
I am not also not sure that a teacher would have been suspended so quickly. She was suspended for refusing to follow a management directive rather than for incompetency.

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52

Re: Minister says veil teacher should be sacked

we had at our secondary school spanish and french (Native speakers from Spain and France) teaching assistants, to support teachers (British) in their teaching of spanish and french. But they never dared to use term TEACHING for their activites inside/outside class. Teachers also are aware and dont use term teaching for them. They are also called language assistants/supporters. They are supporters/assistants/workers. Teaching is only for a Teacher, who is professionally qualified to teach......even he is a british and not native speaker of that langauge, which he has qualified to teach e.g french/spanish.
P.S. in my initial posts I was not aware she is supporting EAL.

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53

Re: Minister says veil teacher should be sacked

Interesting

completely flip side of the coin here

Sorry, if you cant read urdu , the story of non-muslim teachers in mubai(india) who wear veil as part of ‘dress code’ of an elite islamic school where they teach.They say that it was difficult for them to wear head to toe gown (burqa) but now they get used to. And they were told about this requirement during the interview for the job.

Comming back to the topic. In my view British govt should sponser Ms Azmi as she should be sent to an “modern muslim” country like Turkey or Tunis(Tansania) on an “educational / learning” trip for six months . So that when she coomes back she should be more enlightened human being and she would thank British govt, society for Giving her extra-ordinary religious freedom For not torturing her for dressing up according to her religious beliefs a

In Short. British muslims should stop being a cry baby all the time and start paying gratitude to the society for the liberties they have, the same which were un-imaginable in their native regions.

And British govt should stop pampering muslims so much that they forget their Oukaat. (how they are treated in their native countries)

54

Re: Minister says veil teacher should be sacked

I got to know that some headteachers are acting beyond their powers and engage Teaching Assistants in some kind of teaching for while, in avoiding to pay more to supply teachers.....so may be thats why this TA is using "teaching" for her support. TA cant teach at the first hand they dont have any teaching training or qualification, TA is almost paid equal to a McDonalds worker and only work part time during term time. I never seen any TA teaching a class. They are not in position of trust as teachers while dealing/ supporting pupils, a teacher cant leave his/her class/students in charge of TA for 5minutes, they have to supervise all the time. It never happens at ours schools.

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Re: Minister says veil teacher should be sacked

Moreover, TA job is easy to get and leave like McDonalds. One of our TA (non desi) also works as a cleaner in a cafe on weekends…and the owner is a Pakistani. she supports a blind student at school.

P.S. This controversy also remind me again one of the London Bomber Siddique Khan was also a TA at the local school.:halo:

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56

Re: Minister says veil teacher should be sacked

Anyways, I still dont see veil was a problem in performing her duty/tasks/communication before Jack Straws comments. That is the end of story, however if she has to support a deaf child, how would she be able to do so in veil? child has to see her lips.

57

Re: Minister says veil teacher should be sacked

^She agreed to take it off and not wear it in front of kids. That wasn't the problem, the guys she works with were the problem.

58

Re: Minister says veil teacher should be sacked

I think you have hit on something here, but perhaps not the point you intended to make. For instance, I dont know what sort of schools YOU went to but certainly I never had any “dolled up centerfold teachers” in my (secular co-ed) schools. That’s probably because there’s a certain, understood standard for professional dress. No matter where you work, so long as it’s a professional setting, you don’t wear any apparel that might draw undue attention to itself. That is, no really short skirts or low-cut blouses for women, and for men, no sleeveless t-shirts or shorts.

This is why I agree that there was a legitimate complaint against the assistant for wearing niqaab. Like a very short skirt, which would also be highly inappropriate and censured, niqaab draws attention to ITSELF and away from teaching. It also obscures the assistant’s facial expressions – which are a very important part of communication. And good communication is key to good teaching. (Not to mention that, for English language learners – and there are some in this school – the sight and sound of the language being spoken is particularly important to learning and understanding that language. So not being able to see the assistant’s mouth – or hear her voice as clearly as if she weren’t wearing niqaab – also impedes communication and teaching of the students.)

OK, so this woman said she would only wear niqaab if a man were present. So, what? Is the school supposed to take extra pains to make sure no man ever enters her classroom, just to make sure she doesn’t have to put on the veil and perform more poorly than she would without it?

That seems an undue demand to place on one’s employer. If I understand correctly, British laws are premised on gender equality in the workplace. So you can’t really expect employers to accommodate you, if you’ve got particular needs when it comes to working with members of the opposite sex.

Anyway, someone explain to me why some Guppies see this as a case of anti-Muslim discrimination. At issue is NIQAAB, not hijab or anything else. They’re very clearly talking about niqaab because it covers the face and therefore impedes communication. If your HAIR was important to teaching, then maybe the hijab would come up too. But it hasn’t, because this issue is about performing at the workplace in the most professional and excellent manner possible. No miniskirts, no niqaab… it makes sense to me. OK, some British people appear to have taken this case and turned it into an excuse to vent all sorts of garbage. But that doesn’t change the case itself, or why the issue of niqaab came up in the school environment.

59

Re: Muslim Teacher Suspended For Wearing Veil

Its a cultural and religious gap, there are some who use 'viel' for their political gain but others think that by encouraging Muslims not to wear a viel they are helping them assimilate into the community.

60

Re: Minister says veil teacher should be sacked

^just to make it clear once again she cant be alone with kids, there must be male/female teacher to supervise her in class. so if she is supporting/going to support hearing impaired kids in the presence of male teacher, how she is going to make it? she cant do this in veil.

What time is iftari