Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get married

[Zafra]

Re: Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get mar

@Ghost14

So once you break a tenet of Islam you are no longer a Muslim? That’s news to me.

Then I guess you consider the Taliban all vibrant examples of Muslims. I guess you would consider rapists, pedophiles, murderers and others all perfect examples of Muslims.

[S02]

Re: Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get mar

^ He clearly didn’t say they were model Muslims or ideal Muslims. Just that he didn’t feel it was his place to suggest that they are NOT Muslims.

[S02]

Re: Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get mar

Is it really so impossible to engage in thoughtful conversation/debate without disrespecting the other person to such an extent that you have to twist his/her words just to make some point?

[S02]

Re: Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get mar

@psyah

Peace S02

Awareness of something harmful should not be made proactively. If they children find out and ask about it then there is the obligation to educate them about it.

You see I made the fault of proactively telling my kids that solvents are harmful and showed them a child suffering from solvent-sniffing addiction. I then saw the middle child trying to smell an aerosol and I became very angry with him, but then I realised that had I not told him about the act then he would not have known what to do.

Part of educating ones child properly is to know when to be reactive with information and when to be proactive with it. Making people too familiar with a matter is harmful … I don’t go out of my way to tell children how babies come, but eventually they make the intellectual jump and that is when you usher in ideas for keeping things in context for them.

Giving children choice in matters of knowledge is absurd, because we don’t give our children the same CHOICE in matters of possessions and actions do we? We don’t say “son it is your choice to stay at home after dark, but if you go out remember it can be dangerous” - no … we say “don’t go outside it’s dark” … we give them a choice about going out when they are much older.

If you are doing as you say about giving children options then I’m afraid you are not making ethical minds at all.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I do not believe you have to present everything as a choice to children. What I am saying is that the government should not be limiting choices and discriminating against individuals. And the adults in a society do see that people have made choices that they do not agree with.

If you feel that your religious beliefs are best, then you study and teach others what you feel is good/right, both by your actions and your words. You are welcome to do that especially in the very countries you accuse of having some sort of hidden agenda because you have freedom of speech and freedom of religion in those countries.

Forcing people to practice some form of morality through laws is not going to encourage “good” behavior. It will simply encourage secretive, criminal, and abusive behavior.

I do not understand the opinion that allowing gay marriage and equal rights for gay people will somehow spread homosexual behavior. I feel no urge to fly to England to have a romantic relationship with another woman simply because of this news. The issue is not about spreading immoral behavior. It’s a civil rights issue.

When we condone the restriction of human/civil rights for one group, we risk threatening our own.

“Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.” – MLK, Jr.

Last, I will simply add that I do not have the right or audacity to label other humans non-Muslim. I do not know what is in their hearts or between that individual and Allah. I actually think it is extreme hubris to do such a thing, and to make threats and label another of Allah’s creations in such a way. But those who think that is okay will need to answer for their own behavior. It is for Allah to judge who is a Muslim and who is not. The Quran has told us what is sinful behavior, and I am not suggesting to make what is haram in Islam halal. We can read, study, and teach based on our understanding of the Quran’s teachings, without making threats and abusing our power to hurt another individual.

The government should only step in to ensure public safety and restrict behavior that deliberately harms others.

[Zafra]

Re: Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get mar

@S02

^ He clearly didn’t say they were model Muslims or ideal Muslims. Just that he didn’t feel it was his place to suggest that they are NOT Muslims.

That is actually incorrect and the gentleman is being hypocritical. Look at his comments regarding OBL and Saudi Arabia.

The double standard is that those who support homosexual relations make rampant judgement about those who are of the opposite view point.

[Ghost14]

Re: Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get mar

@Zafra

That is actually incorrect and the gentleman is being hypocritical. Look at his comments regarding OBL and Saudi Arabia.

The double standard is that those who support homosexual relations make rampant judgement about those who are of the opposite view point.

Where did I say that the Saudis or OBL are not Muslims? Quote me.

I said that they could be accused of committing Fitna, in essence, that they can be called “bad” Muslims. You could say the same thing about lesbian women, and that’s fine, but it’s awfully presumptuous of you to say that they’re not Muslims because that’s for God to decide.

[Ghost14]

Re: Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get mar

@S02

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I do not believe you have to present everything as a choice to children. What I am saying is that the government should not be limiting choices and discriminating against individuals. And the adults in a society do see that people have made choices that they do not agree with.

If you feel that your religious beliefs are best, then you study and teach others what you feel is good/right, both by your actions and your words. You are welcome to do that especially in the very countries you accuse of having some sort of hidden agenda because you have freedom of speech and freedom of religion in those countries.

Forcing people to practice some form of morality through laws is not going to encourage “good” behavior. It will simply encourage secretive, criminal, and abusive behavior.

I do not understand the opinion that allowing gay marriage and equal rights for gay people will somehow spread homosexual behavior. I feel no urge to fly to England to have a romantic relationship with another woman simply because of this news. The issue is not about spreading immoral behavior. It’s a civil rights issue.

When we condone the restriction of human/civil rights for one group, we risk threatening our own.

“Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.” – MLK, Jr.

Last, I will simply add that I do not have the right or audacity to label other humans non-Muslim. I do not know what is in their hearts or between that individual and Allah. I actually think it is extreme hubris to do such a thing, and to make threats and label another of Allah’s creations in such a way. But those who think that is okay will need to answer for their own behavior. It is for Allah to judge who is a Muslim and who is not. The Quran has told us what is sinful behavior, and I am not suggesting to make what is haram in Islam halal. We can read, study, and teach based on our understanding of the Quran’s teachings, without making threats and abusing our power to hurt another individual.

The government should only step in to ensure public safety and restrict behavior that deliberately harms others.

1. This. We’re not the gatekeepers of Islam. No one is suggesting that Islam allows homosexuality, but we can treat them with dignity, much as we might treat an alcoholic Muslim with at least some measure of respect.

2. This is a civil rights issue. As long as there are tax benefits that go along with marriage, we should not deny any citizens this right. Religions have the right to refuse to recognize gay marriage, but we don’t live in societies that only have spiritual unions. Like it or not, marriage is a legal contract between two people so viewing this topic through a religious bias, without civic consideration, is incorrect.

Excellent post overall too S02.

[Shamraz_Khan]

Re: Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get mar

@muqawwee123

fine, if you don’t see any wrong in it, but being Muslim, people believe what is written and taught in Quran about sodomy and qom e Lut. They believe that qom e Lut was exterminated due to this act. I hope there shouldn’t be any problem in accepting this fact that there is nothing like gay / Lesbian marriages in Muslim (in strict sense) as this is unanimously agreed upon by all the sects of Islam. This is just acceptable on one notion and i.e. Lakum Deenukum Waliya din (For you is your religion, and for me is my religion) which can be translated in modern phrase ‘live and let live’.

If Qom ee Lut was destroyed b/c of homosexuality or homosexual acts than why hasn’t God hasn’t destroyed any other Qom since then? After all, we know homosexuals and homosexuality are part of every society, and just b/c you don’t want to acknowledge existence of gays that doesn’t mean they don’t exist. That leads me to believes that a) either God doesn’t care about the issue or b) Jewish Rabbis who wrote the Old Testament made up the whole story (the story originally comes from the Old Testament). As for live and let live…I’m all for it. Only if the people were practicing what they preach this world would be a lot better place.

[Shamraz_Khan]

Re: Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get mar

@bao_bihari

It is 3-5 % , but dont you think that it will increase given the chance.

Only if you believe that being gay is contagious…or cool than yes. Otherwise, what are the benefits of being gay given the fact they face persecution in most societies?

[muqawwee123]

Re: Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get mar

@Shamraz_Khan

If Qom ee Lut was destroyed b/c of homosexuality or homosexual acts than why hasn’t God hasn’t destroyed any other Qom since then? After all, we know homosexuals and homosexuality are part of every society, and just b/c you don’t want to acknowledge existence of gays that doesn’t mean they don’t exist. That leads me to believes that a) either God doesn’t care about the issue or b) Jewish Rabbis who wrote the Old Testament made up the whole story (the story originally comes from the Old Testament). As for live and let live…I’m all for it. Only if the people were practicing what they preach this world would be a lot better place.

Exactly

[picoico]

Re: Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get mar

@S02

picoico: If they do, it will go against most pedagogical approaches in secular schools.

For the most part, I’d agree I don’t expact that kind of dialog. But will the atmosphere created by explicitly avoiding the religious attitudes (i.e. wihtout expllicitly saying it’s okay to think that such unions are not okay, while simultaneously pointing out that the law is clear on the matter) end up being hostile or exlcusive by omission to those who do not agree?

In the past, I’ve observed that with other controversial topics teachers themselves were merely following guidelines, so wouldn’t press the issue much. In my time, the hot topic was that of abortion. It was just legalized, and the sex education cirriculum was changed accordingly.

[teggy]

Re: Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get mar

@Shamraz_Khan

If Qom ee Lut was destroyed b/c of homosexuality or homosexual acts than why hasn’t God hasn’t destroyed any other Qom since then? After all, we know homosexuals and homosexuality are part of every society, and just b/c you don’t want to acknowledge existence of gays that doesn’t mean they don’t exist. That leads me to believes that a) either God doesn’t care about the issue or b) Jewish Rabbis who wrote the Old Testament made up the whole story (the story originally comes from the Old Testament). As for live and let live…I’m all for it. Only if the people were practicing what they preach this world would be a lot better place.

You do realize that the same “story” is also in Quran, right? With somewhat same details…

Surah Araf verses 80-84.

[Shamraz_Khan]

Re: Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get mar

@teggy

You do realize that the same “story” is also in Quran, right? With somewhat same details…

Yes, I do. Btw, you cannot take everything in holly books literally. Some of those are moral, inspirational and motivational stories about we should or should not do.

[muqawwee123]

Re: Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get mar

@Shamraz_Khan

Yes, I do. Btw, you cannot take everything in holly books literally. Some of those are moral, inspirational and motivational stories about we should or should not do.

yes these are mere motivational stories and thats why God didn’t accept Hazrat Ibrahim’s plea to forgive Qom e Lut.

[Shamraz_Khan]

Re: Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get mar

@psyah

Is it true that you think being religious and non-violent is an oxymoron?

No, not necessarily. The problem I have with religious people is that they think they have monopoly on what is right, just, and moral & they must impose their views on others even by force if necessary.

[teggy]

Re: Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get mar

@Shamraz_Khan

Yes, I do. Btw, you cannot take everything in holly books literally. Some of those are moral, inspirational and motivational stories about we should or should not do.

Then perhaps we should practice caution, instead of ridiculing the other scriptures and people of the book as being “made up stories by Rabbis to scare people” when Quran confirms the same.

[Shamraz_Khan]

Re: Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get mar

@teggy

Then perhaps we should practice caution, instead of ridiculing the other scriptures and people of the book as being “made up stories by Rabbis to scare people” when Quran confirms the same.

So please tell us, what’s the moral in the story of Lut? What should we or should we not do?

1. How do you prove that one religions book is more “true” than other (as for as I know everyone thinks that their religion is the truest one)?
2. Story of Lut, as I said before, is about lust & the moral of the story is that lust is wrong.

[muqawwee123]

Re: Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get mar

@teggy

Then perhaps we should practice caution, instead of ridiculing the other scriptures and people of the book as being “made up stories by Rabbis to scare people” when Quran confirms the same.

So please tell us, what’s the moral in the story of Lut? What should we or should we not do?

Lets first confirm whether OP considers Quran as word of God or not?

consider the words in post ‘the story originally comes from the Old Testament’, which was written by Rabis.

[teggy]

Re: Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get mar

@Shamraz_Khan

1. How do you prove that one religions book is more “true” than other (as for as I know everyone thinks that their religion is the truest one)?
2. Story of Lut, as I said before, is about lust & the moral of the story is that lust is wrong.

I said nothing about one book being more “true” than others; that’s your prerogative. I’m just pointing out the fact that we shouldn’t go around labeling others’ scriptures as “stories made up by their rabbis” when the same “story” is revealed in Quran. To believe one source or the other is entirely up to the person. There are non-muslims whose beliefs are closer to Islam than muslims’ themselves, and vice versa.

Belief is an individual thing. As for your interpretation of the moral; I can’t argue that. You’re entitled to interpret it as you please although it is stated specifically what their wrong was (Seeking pleasure with men instead of mates created for them; mates who are lawful).

That’s all I have to say on that.

[Zafra]

Re: Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get mar

@Ghost14

Where did I say that the Saudis or OBL are not Muslims? Quote me.

I said that they could be accused of committing Fitna, in essence, that they can be called “bad” Muslims. You could say the same thing about lesbian women, and that’s fine, but it’s awfully presumptuous of you to say that they’re not Muslims because that’s for God to decide.

I don’t need to quote your words. You are basically using the argument that OBL and the Saudis among others are worse Muslims than this lesbian couple. You are passing judgement which you said earlier that was not your role.

I would imagine that most gay people don’t think it’s okay to be gay, but realize that they’re are committing a sin. That would make it fasq. **No one is suggesting that Islam permits homosexuality, what I am saying was that **their lifestyle is their choice, and it’s up to Allah to decide whether they are Muslim or not, or good people or not. This was in response to someone saying that it’s all fine because they are not Muslim anyway. It’s probably a personal struggle for them. It would be pretty hard to just turn off your sexual urges.

---

Basically its unfair for us to judge the Lesbians as bad. But its perfectly okay for you to imply and state that OBL and Saudis are worse Muslims.