Re: Musharraf proposes to name NWFP as ‘Khyber’
Dasbz since when was I a punjabi lol. My point was that Jadoon is a Pakhtun tribe. Not one that wasmixed or anthing. I too don't believe in pure race and what not. I was using it figuritively. Calm down.
Re: Musharraf proposes to name NWFP as ‘Khyber’
Chopping up Pakistan is an old Kabuli Kommie dream. Problem is that Afghanistan ended up chopped up. Funny! Kabuli Kommies still don't see the light.
Well go for it Kabuli man! Show us that you can unite Pashtoons in the Southern Afghanistan. We in Pakistan will follow you, if your feet could accomplish that feat.
Re: Musharraf proposes to name NWFP as ‘Khyber’
Frontier province (and the rest of Pakistan) is suffering from terrible highway system.
N-W.F.P. has one of the best road systems in the whole of Pakistan. Please do visit to check sometimes.
Re: Musharraf proposes to name NWFP as ‘Khyber’
Sorry i over reacted, my point was pure race and only marrying within the family is usually Punjabi culture and alien to ours.
I get touchy when people talk like that because my grandma was Italian (converted to Islam and learnt Pashto) but I don't have anything to do with Italy, I'm Pashtun/Afghan and if I marry a Brazilian or Indian girl (after converting to Islam and teaching our culture to live back home) my children will be as much Pashtuns as of someone who marries a Pashtun woman (only mines will be healthier and more genetically enhanced) because only paternal lineage determines ones tribe and ethnicity that's why in our family trees we only keep a record of the male lineage.
Re: Musharraf proposes to name NWFP as ‘Khyber’
yes your right
but pakhtuns are 80% plus and they will win any referendum hands down......
Re: Musharraf proposes to name NWFP as ‘Khyber’
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wrong these names were all given. there was no balochistan, sindh or punjab before......
by the way the punjab stops at jhelum and the salt range. the punjab consists of the beas, sutlej, jhelum, ravi and chenab.....after the jhelum starts the sindh sagar doad or the potohar plateau......
the indus is not part of the punjab
Re: Musharraf proposes to name NWFP as ‘Khyber’
khyber is a silly name because it does not represent the province at all.....the only thing it represents is that the afghan conquerors as well as turkic ie mughals, ghori etc tend to pass this way to reach Hind
pashtunkhwa/pashtunistan are suitable names for this province. the land of the pashtuns is an apt name. the only areas of nwfp where pashtuns are not a majority is chitral or hazara. many chitralis can speak pashtu and probably 40% of hazara is pashtu speaking overall.
afghania is a better name. this land was a part of afghanistan once and the vast majority of the inhabitants who live in this area share more in common with the people to the west of the durand line than their brothers to the east of the indus. afghania is a good name quite simply because its more neutral language wise, although babur the empreror never recognised the pashtu language. instead he reognised it as afghani. you should all read babur nama for furhter clarification.
as for the hindko speakers. the vast majority of todays non-pashtun population of sarhad are descendants of immigrants. a lot of the hindko speakers in hazara are basically pashtuns. so they would not object to afghania. their culture and way of life is still based on pashtunwali.
chitralies also have more in coomon with afghans that border their province than with hindko,punjabi or urdu speakers.
if you ask hindko speakers what their orgins were you would find out that many of them were of indian extraction be that rajput, urdu or whatever. so they are not really native to the area. a very high number of them are kashmiri's too - butts, some raja's, etc... then you have qazalbash's and syeds who also have more in common with afghan/pashtuns than others and nowadays many of these speak pashtu too.
as for d i khan a significant amount of the seraiki speakers there are of pashtun extraction so why they would object to afghania or even pashtunistan i do not know.
afghania is a better name over all and if you include quetta then the changazis there will feel no objection to it too.
Re: Musharraf proposes to name NWFP as ‘Khyber’
NWFP - North West Frontier Province
in Urdu ( Shumal Maghrabi Sarhadi Sooba) in Short Sarhad.
Sarhad is not a proper name.
Last time I have listened to ANP response to this. which to some extent was valid.
Why Khayber - when Sindh is not Called Mehran, Balochistan not called Bolan
and Punjab is not called Potohar.
He was accepting the name Phtoonkhua/Pakhtoonistan or Afghani
I think only hinderance to call it above names is other ethinic population in the province.
but I think they should have right to what the name should be. referendum for such formality will be waste of time and money.
Sarhad Assembly should propose it and pass it in parliament.
Re: Musharraf proposes to name NWFP as ‘Khyber’
as for d i khan a significant amount of the seraiki speakers there are of pashtun extraction so why they would object to afghania or even pashtunistan i do not know.
afghania is a better name over all and if you include quetta then the changazis there will feel no objection to it too.
Wrong, some Hindko speakers might be recent Punjabi immigrants who adopted Hindko over Pashto because of linguistic similarities but way back in time the Hindko were the original inhabitants, even before Pashtuns arrived.
Indic languages moved south-eastwards into South Asia from the northwest not vice versa, Hindko and Potohari languages were spoken in eastern Afghanistan and northwestern Pakistan by imperial/warrior caste Hindus way before the ancestors of Pashtuns arrived in these regions, there was a country called Gandhara here which was originally Hindu and then converted to Buddhism and as manuscripts from that era testify the language spoken in that region then was pretty much the same as what we nowadays call Hindko, they say the oldest universities in the world were in Taxila and the dialects used in them were presentday Hindko and Potohari.
Re: Musharraf proposes to name NWFP as ‘Khyber’
if you read history books the present day nwfp was virtually uninhabited.....since the period of mahmud of ghaznawai
most "hindko" speakers arrived after the sikhs took peshawar.....under the sikhs peshawar halved.....previous to that peshawar was a winter capital of afghanistan....
so the dominant language would have been persian and pashtu then......the sikhs hated pashtuns and drove them out....
Re: Musharraf proposes to name NWFP as ‘Khyber’
Kooks you seem to know a lot about pakhtun(afghan) history, respect. Plus, I think you are talking in specific about the peshawar plain, since that was as far as the sikhs got, but as far as I remember a good chunk was indic, until we arrived (iranic) and moved westward. Thats where we picked the different sounds, they mostly came fom indic languages. Feel free to correct me.
Peace
Re: Musharraf proposes to name NWFP as ‘Khyber’
[quote]
if you read history books the present day nwfp was virtually uninhabited.....since the period of mahmud of ghaznawai
most "hindko" speakers arrived after the sikhs took peshawar.....under the sikhs peshawar halved.....previous to that peshawar was a winter capital of afghanistan....
so the dominant language would have been persian and pashtu then......the sikhs hated pashtuns and drove them out....
[/quote]
Oh please!!! When will my ignorant Pashtuns open their eyes to reality and stop living in fantasy??? Then we wonder why today we are one of the most backward ethnicity on earth and on a fast downward spiral.
There’s reality which is supported by archaeological facts and historical data and there’s the sensational hogwash wrote by over sentimental so called Pashtun warrior poets and self declared armchair historians, the latter might be good to keep a people patriotic and move armies with fanatical zeal but please it’s not a good idea to cut oneself off from reality and blind oneself with fanciful notions which are far from reality because you are only making a fool out of yourself and your ethnicity and nobody else is buying your bullcrap so stop kidding yourself with far fetched theories.
I have never come across any ethnicity, which has as ‘fertile’ an imagination as my people, we are experts at exaggerating and fairytaling about ourselves but in reality we are all talk no action and I don’t think there’ll be any improvement because we like to dwell and over exaggerate a few past feats and that’s why our situation is deteriorating because everyone knows that a people who walk looking backwards stumble and fall. There have been greater dynasties than our inferiority complexed 'Persian revering' Afghan dynasty but their people were not stuck in romanticism so because of their humble attitudes they continue to prosper but sadly our people are like tramps.
Now getting back to the topic, Pishore and NWFP were originally Hindko speaking and this is centuries and centuries ago like when there was a Desi country called Gandhara here, the ancestors of Pashtuns and Persians and what have you came later, I admit the reign of Sikhs did cause my brave handsome Pashtun warriors to flee with their tails between their hind legs like jackals (I wonder what happened to defence of 'zan zar zameen'?) from Daalkhor Punjabis which would dwindled our numbers further in the region but I think Pashtuns/Afghans were already a minority in the region, even if they were the majority that recently, the archaeological and historical evidence says that Gandhara (eastern Afghanistan, NWFP, NW Punjab) was a Hindko speaking country before arrival of the Pashtuns on the scene.
Don't blindly believe and propogate far fetched myths just because they support your agenda, accept reality with an open mind.
You can love your culture but it's not nice to undermine other ethnicities and be insensitive to their plight because that's racism, so I think we should stop being racist bigots and opt for neutral names for all provinces including Balochistan.
Re: Musharraf proposes to name NWFP as ‘Khyber’
I don't think kooks is pashtun? Anyways interesting input.
Re: Musharraf proposes to name NWFP as ‘Khyber’
Khyber is just a opening suggestion by the federal government side. The ANP has suggested "Afghania", and others Pakhtunkwa. I am sure if all sides come together some middle way can be found, and which will have more chance of a consensus being reached.
At least the both sides agree that the NWFP name is far outdated.
Re: Musharraf proposes to name NWFP as ‘Khyber’
Although I am not from NWFP, but can not agreeeeeee more :k:
ppl who are saying that “we can not treat NWFP as Punjab, Sindh and Baluchistan as these proviences ALREADY had the name”, yee kahan kee logic hai bhai?
Chaloo ager Sindh, Punjab aur Baluchistan already had a name tu bhee these proviences should now change the name after Urdu Speaking and Saraiki speaking are now merged into Sindh and Punjab provience…takers anyone?
Re: Musharraf proposes to name NWFP as ‘Khyber’
What they mean is Punjabis/Sindhis were named Punjabi/Sindhi after their province and not the province after them, their provinces were so named because of rivers, Sindh was named after River Sindh and Punjab was named after Punj Aab (Five Waters/Rivers) but that argument doesn’t mean much because now they are associated with certain ethnic groups so I think every province in Pakistan should have names free of ethnic connotations so that no ethnicity feels more/less at home than another and we can all live as equals in Pakistan and nobody accuses anyone of favouriteism.
Re: Musharraf proposes to name NWFP as ‘Khyber’
And what would you say about Baluchistan, haan? Was it also named after a river? Punjab has now been partitioned and in 1960, it sold two of its rivers to India, so the named be changed.
Pashtuns are in majority in NWFP (74.4%) and the majority should give name to the province according to the principle of democracy. Peshawar is 85% Pashtun according to 1998 population census and Kohat 78%. The only non-Pashto majority division in NWFP is Hazara where also Pashtuns are about 24%.
OK, If Hindko-speakers of Hazara don't like Pakhtunkhwa or Pakhtunistan or Afghania, they can go their own way. Merge FATA and Pashtun parts of NWFP and Baluchistan and name it Pakhtunkhwa. I will personally prefer Afghania, though.
As for Khyber, Pakistan should then be named Pkkistan because "Alif" in "PA" stands for Afghania.
Re: Musharraf proposes to name NWFP as ‘Khyber’
It's the people of NWFP themselves who have not arrived at a consensus regarding renaming their province. A majority decision will alienate a significant minority. This issue should not be politicized and a genuine consensus should be developed.
Re: Musharraf proposes to name NWFP as ‘Khyber’
Hahaha, this shows how shallow or insincerely do we Pakistani think and argue....
Krash man, consensus doesn't mean agreement of the 100% of the people over an issue...that is impossible...you would not find a name till dommsday no matter how hard you try to which 100% of the people will agree...
Consensus mean agreement of the majority...
Re: Musharraf proposes to name NWFP as ‘Khyber’
I think what 'Krash' meant is that there is no consensus regarding name amongst all different ethnic communities living in NWFP. True that consensus could never going to be 100 percent but it also does not mean that consensus means majority when several ethnic groups are living togeather.
Just give you an example:
Suppose three families live in union and decide to go to a movie together. One family (family x) has 23 people in household, another (family y) have 9 people in the household and third (family z) have 5 people in household. Now consensus does not mean that we add the people in the household of all families together making it 37 people and then say that now since majority, i.e 19 people want to go to movie ‘A’, so we go to movie ‘A’. Because that would mean that ‘family x’ in the union would always decide what to do.
In such situation, consensus means that majority in all three household agrees, even though individual in each household does not agree. For instance, consensus here would be, majority in household of ‘family x’ agrees, majority in household of family ‘y’ agrees and majority in household of family ‘z’ agrees.
In other word, it means that at least 12 out of 23 people in family x agree, 5 out of 9 people in family y agree and 3 out of 5 people in family z agree.
If that would not happen and decision would be decided dependent on the desire of family x then that union would be considered as failure and it would become cause of split in the union.
When it comes to decision regarding Pakistan (for instance voting for President of Pakistan) then all four provinces play a role similar to this basis. Vote comes from Pakistan national assembly, Pak senate and all four provinces. Weighting of Pakistan senate and provincial assembly is same for all four provinces.
Same is true regarding naming NWFP. So, if name for NWFP is to be found, it has to be with consensus of each ethnic group living in NWFP, not one ethnic group should decide what name to be given. If one group decides (for instance Pakhtuns only), then that could not be called consensus.
Thus, if decision regarding name of NWFP would only satisfy one ethnic living in NWFP (Pakhtun) just because they are majority on their own right, then it means that NWFP union is a failure and NWFP first need division amongst different ethnic people living there before any naming. It also means that the ethnic that tries to impose their desire over others living together are not civilized enough to live in union.
Regardless, I do not think that it could happen in Pakistan so easily that one ethnic would be able to impose thier will over others. That is true on national level where Punjabis are in majority or in provincial level where in NWFP, one ethnic (Pakhtun) are in majority.
Politics of Quaid-e-Azam that led to Pakistan was on similar principle that even though Hindus in India were in Majority, Hindu and Muslim living in union needed consensus of both. Since Congress was not willing to satisfy Muslim league leadership (Quaid-e-Azam), split of Indian union and creation of Pakistan became a reality.
Bhutto played the same card that, before NA session, Awami League should take him into confidence as leading politician from west (having majority in two of western province and overall majority in West Pakistan). Since Mujib was insistent on calling the national assembly before any need for confidence building and consensus, military action happened resulting in split of the union.
Present day Pakistan Senate composition and their role in decision making on whatever relates to Pakistan plus role of provincial assemblies are all due to this concept of consensus.
Anything that needs change from what it is at present in Pakistan, need consensus from all the provinces in Pakistan. Not building Kalabagh and other dams are result of Federation not succeeding to get consensus from all provinces on the issue even though if majority was the only criteria, regardless of where they came from, construction of dams would have happened long time ago as Punjab on their own can vote for that, giving overall majority.