Re: MQM and Karachi - Shoaib Suddle and Tariq Lodhi
Do you really think all those murderers, torturers etc could've been punished by a court of law?
Are you saying that since our court system is not good, therefore it is ok to inflict collective punishment, and murder some innocent people?
Re: MQM and Karachi - Shoaib Suddle and Tariq Lodhi
^ What is your definition of "collective punishment"? Again, how many innocents really died compared with criminals? If 2-3 innocents died compared with 50-60 criminals then it probably was okay in the sense that those 50-60 criminals might have killed more than 2-3 innocents too, also depends on how those innocents died, was it at the hands of police or during the cross-fire etc.
Re: MQM and Karachi - Shoaib Suddle and Tariq Lodhi
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2-3 innocents died compared with 50-60 criminals
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How did you come to this conclusion? Any stats?
Oh, but there are not stats, because all killings were EXTRA-JUDICIAL.
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was it at the hands of police or during the cross-fire etc
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That's the point. Murderers like Suddle are exactly the same as murderers in MQM. Hence no one can claim them to be their "hero", and they need to be investigated like criminals.
Re: MQM and Karachi - Shoaib Suddle and Tariq Lodhi
How did you come to this conclusion? Any stats?
Oh, but there are not stats, because all killings were EXTRA-JUDICIAL.
See now you are asking for stats but a few posts ago it was shameful to ask for stats :)
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That's the point. Murderers like Suddle are exactly the same as murderers in MQM. Hence no one can claim them to be their "hero", and they need to be investigated like criminals.
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You are using my question as if thats what really happened. I really don't know how innocents were killed, do you know?
Re: MQM and Karachi - Shoaib Suddle and Tariq Lodhi
^ What is your definition of "collective punishment"? Again, how many innocents really died compared with criminals? If 2-3 innocents died compared with 50-60 criminals then it probably was okay in the sense that those 50-60 criminals might have killed more than 2-3 innocents too, also depends on how those innocents died, was it at the hands of police or during the cross-fire etc.
All I will say to you is first live in the middle class areas of Karachi, get picked up by the police, have your parents blackmailed that if they dont pay 5-10 lakh ruppes you will be killed and then come talk to us.
This is exactly what happend in the operation. They went from door to door on a muhasara and picked up all boys from each home ages 14-30 in a certain area. Those who couldnt pay the ransom were killed. 80% of families effected by this didnt had anything to do with MQM or haqiqi.
I m sure its really easy to ask for stats when you are not effected. Its a whole different animal when its your family that paid the price and you cant get pass to see others.
Re: MQM and Karachi - Shoaib Suddle and Tariq Lodhi
That is an absolute lie. Can you prove that? This is just MQM’s propaganda to cover their crimes. Innocent people of other communities have suffered more in the hands of MQM. They kill the people then they cry oh “they were supporters of MQM” as was done in burning alive 7 lawyers in Karachi very recently.
Re: MQM and Karachi - Shoaib Suddle and Tariq Lodhi
^ What is your definition of "collective punishment"? Again, how many innocents really died compared with criminals? If 2-3 innocents died compared with 50-60 criminals then it probably was okay in the sense that those 50-60 criminals might have killed more than 2-3 innocents too, also depends on how those innocents died, was it at the hands of police or during the cross-fire etc.
Yes the ratio of innocents killing was very less then. But do not you think same applies with the case of extremist/miliatants caught in connection with religious activitives. And CJ I Choudry took a wrong stance for them?
Re: MQM and Karachi - Shoaib Suddle and Tariq Lodhi
All I will say to you is first live in the middle class areas of Karachi, get picked up by the police, have your parents blackmailed that if they dont pay 5-10 lakh ruppes you will be killed and then come talk to us.
This is exactly what happend in the operation. They went from door to door on a muhasara and picked up all boys from each home ages 14-30 in a certain area. Those who couldnt pay the ransom were killed. 80% of families effected by this didnt had anything to do with MQM or haqiqi.
I m sure its really easy to ask for stats when you are not effected. Its a whole different animal when its your family that paid the price and you cant get pass to see others.
Pretty funny. When It was your family effected It hurted you. When Its the other way around, you keep your mouth shut.
I love that.
Re: MQM and Karachi - Shoaib Suddle and Tariq Lodhi
Pretty funny. When It was your family effected It hurted you. When Its the other way around, you keep your mouth shut. I love that.
What else is in Pakistan...Pehlay apni jaan tou bachao phir doosron ki socho....How many times did you stand up , risk your life, to save someone elses life?
Re: MQM and Karachi - Shoaib Suddle and Tariq Lodhi
That is an absolute lie. Can you prove that? This is just MQM’s propaganda to cover their crimes. Innocent people of other communities have suffered more in the hands of MQM. They kill the people then they cry oh “they were supporters of MQM” as was done in burning alive 7 lawyers in Karachi very recently.
Can you prove it the other way around?? and Yes I can...
Re: MQM and Karachi - Shoaib Suddle and Tariq Lodhi
Pretty funny. When It was your family effected It hurted you. When Its the other way around, you keep your mouth shut. I love that.
Very funny....its human nature....how many times have you done that??
Re: MQM and Karachi - Shoaib Suddle and Tariq Lodhi
Here are few proofs. Read and enjoy. Now it is your turn to prove what you are saying.
Seven killed in Karachi clashes: police
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthread.php?t=282300
Rallies & Bloodshed
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthread.php?t=252983&page=11
Foundation of MQM
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthread.php?t=267978
Truth About MQM
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthread.php?t=272932
11 workers killed in a day: MQM-H
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthread.php?t=280153
Re: MQM and Karachi - Shoaib Suddle and Tariq Lodhi
This is no proof…pay attention. We were talking about the operation and how innocent people suffered but again when it comes to karachi no one cares so its kind of pointless to talk to people like you anyways.
Re: MQM and Karachi - Shoaib Suddle and Tariq Lodhi
calling MQM terrorist, is like calling 90% of karachi's population terrorist. These are the people who overwhemly vote for MQM. When mqm boycotted the elections, only 2-3 % vote was casted, and that was during the army operation there. People who think that mqm does not enjoy people's support, live in fools paradise.
Re: MQM and Karachi - Shoaib Suddle and Tariq Lodhi
calling MQM terrorist, is like calling 90% of karachi's population terrorist. These are the people who overwhemly vote for MQM. When mqm boycotted the elections, only 2-3 % vote was casted, and that was during the army operation there. People who think that mqm does not enjoy people's support, live in fools paradise.
Not a chance. Roughly 45% of the city of Karachi is urdu speaking. Of that population I would be surprised if even 35% (out of 40%) support MQM, but assuming MQM gets support from all 40% it is still not controlling all of the city. I can guarantee you that almost none of the remaining 60% of the city of Karachi (ethnic minorities) support MQM.
Being well organized, very agressive and taking votes at gunpoint does'nt mean that you have the full support of the city - reality check.
Re: MQM and Karachi - Shoaib Suddle and Tariq Lodhi
I have no love lost for MQM. I think Muhajirs and all other communities living in Karachi are done a great disservice by being represented by this goon party: MQM. I think Karachi deserves better. I think people of Karachi deserve better.
Having said that, I can never support extra-judicial killings. Whether in the garb of Naseer-ullah Baber type massacres that happened in PPP's first term or street-fighting between Altaf and Haqiqi groups.
Government should act like a government. What differentiates a government from a mafia is that due process is observed and justice is served in a transparent manner. I do not want our police to be vigilantes on the street and taking law into their own hands. Shoaib Suddle or whoever is now made responsible for law and order in the city should make sure proper action is taken against those responsible for murder, mayhem and corruption, and people are convited and punished through the court system.
No one should get excited about the prospect of blood bath in the most important city in Pakistan. That will be tragic on multiple levels.
Re: MQM and Karachi - Shoaib Suddle and Tariq Lodhi
Not to mention, that several people have told me that in the last five years, MQM has amassed a huge cache of weapons and ammunition to prepare for another Naseerullah Baber type of crackdown. This time, this gunda party will make the death toll much worse, if the government decides to clean up the city of Karachi.
And MQM-Haqiqi is also another joke. That faction was created by Nawaz Sharif to weaken Altaf Husain's hold on MQM, but the move never really took off, and Haqiqi is just a minor irritant for MQM, rather than a credible alternative.
Re: MQM and Karachi - Shoaib Suddle and Tariq Lodhi
Not to mention, that several people have told me that in the last five years, MQM has amassed a huge cache of weapons and ammunition to prepare for another Naseerullah Baber type of crackdown. This time, this gunda party will make the death toll much worse, if the government decides to clean up the city of Karachi.
And MQM-Haqiqi is also another joke. That faction was created by Nawaz Sharif to weaken Altaf Husain's hold on MQM, but the move never really took off, and Haqiqi is just a minor irritant for MQM, rather than a credible alternative.
Yes I've heard of the same. With control of the ports due to their good freind Mush, MQM has been able to arm themselves to the teeth in case anyone tries to break their Mafia. There would be massive bloodshed if anyone tried to disarm them and make them a legit political party.
Re: MQM and Karachi - Shoaib Suddle and Tariq Lodhi
Faisal:
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everal people have told me that in the last five years, MQM has amassed a huge cache of weapons and ammunition to prepare for another Naseerullah Baber type of crackdown.
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If one can not give any reference to a claim then this claim is a lie.
Re: MQM and Karachi - Shoaib Suddle and Tariq Lodhi
With control of the ports due to their good freind Mush,
What do you mean by "control of port"? How has Musharraf supported MQM in this "control of port"?