Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul II

Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

I missed it, where does he say a non-Christian is not worth praying for? I’m not here to defend Christians, most would not claim me as a Christian. Most fundamentalists of any religion believe their way is the only path to salvation that is not any news.

Besides as ‘religious’ as armughal or others here who have expressed their loving thoughts are, they hardly have the power to ‘create an irreparable division’ in society. That kind of power resides with great people such as the Pope, but thankfully he used that power in a way that bridged societies and spread the Godly message of love, peace and tolerance.

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I have to mention that Catholics are not the same as televangelists. The only similarity is the christian label, that's it.

With the different interpetations of the Bible, there are many different sects of christianity now.

I know according to you, all of us are damned, so it may not matter, but don't paint our church with the same brush as some of those scam artists that preach on TV. The churches, the philosophy, the leadership, the following and especially the charity are not the same.

Thanks...

Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

Here you go, a vigorous defence on a Christian website against praying for the “unsaved” dead.

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/faq/prayingdead.html

fine, you feel strongly about him because he was your religious figure. if i really cared about these issues I wouldnt say anything about it even if I believed he was going to hell, because I wouldnt wish to hurt potential muslims.

but, i can find websites by christian churches that actually berate our Prophet. now tell me, is the pope dearer to you than our Prophet is to us?

drawing conclusions along the lines of “this is why Muslims are different” or whatever is just illogical, and founded on very selective perception.

Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

I will pray for you. But if you really think there is a comparison between the good of John Paul and osama then you’ll need more than my prayers. Good luck.

Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

^
thank u for the prayers....
i'll need as many as i can get....

u will have my prayers too....
but only as long as u live....
i can pray that Allah guides u....
but if u die in a state where u do not accept Islam, i am obliged not to make any prayer for u, cuz then u wud have passed ur time of trial and sorry to say, failed it....

Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

minah_pa, i wasnt speaking of them as true representative of Christianity or anything, I was speaking of them as Christians. just as seminole didnt make the distinction of going down to armughals specific sect within Islam when making his comments in general about Muslims in reaction to armughal’s comments, I cited these people as Christians (not catholic/protestant/etc) who have a thing or two to say about dead or living Muslims.

no offense intended.

Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

^
i speak from Quran and no sect from Islam opposes what Quran says....

seminole can happily generalize this to all muslims, no muslim from whatever sect he may be, is allowed to pray for dead non-muslims' forgiveness....

and if any sect goes against Quran, then it surely is using Islam as a label and not as a religion....

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once again, army, that is your view. i may choose to agree or disagree with it, and while you can claim you have the more Muslim view, it will remain exactly that: your claim.

you are one random poster on a bulletin board, who isnt any more accomplished than the hundreds of thousands of ulema who have talked and discussed this issue. and everyone of those hundreds of thousands wasnt an idiot, and neither did all of them not speak from the Quran and other Islamic sources. your opinion is not inherently more Islamic just because you think it is, and everything you say should not be construed as the pearls of wisdom of Islam just because you feel it is so.

you, who tell everyone around you to either agree with you or leave Islam, should be a little less presumptuous.

Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

^
but then again as i mentioned earlier to some other ppl here as well, that those verses r not my words and not my thought but rather Allah's words and His commands which we, as muslims, must follow....
and while i may not represent the muslims in their entirety or even partially, the Quran is the authoritative standard for all muslims....
and it is not for a muslim to disagree with clear directions from the Quran....

Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

no, it isnt that clear. the injunctions arent specifically wrt the pope, they say kaffiers within the christians for example. the logic where you give one ayat, then another, then claim they're related etc, is your own.

dont claim that you are speaking entirely from the Quran, because you're not, unless it is still being written today.

Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

The non muslims expect us to pray for them why what will they gain nothing so why argue they have their belief and we have ours simple leave it at that, we have our way of life and they have thiers end of, dont try and force us to be like kuffar we do not imitate kuffar belief pope is good in charity and making nice speeches but end of day still died a kafir nothing complicated or difficult to grasp about this.

Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

Nice to see that the intolerant here don’t speak for all Muslims

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7359150/

Arab world hails pope
Pope’s dialogue with the Arab world will be missed - even by extremists

A political cartoon in Monday’s pan-Arab Al Hayat newspaper summed up the sentiment here to the death of Pope John Paul II: a tearful world bade farewell as the pontiff retreated to a starlit heaven.

The pope gained Arab respect through his unprecedented efforts to promote dialogue between the Catholic Church and Muslim leaders, his unfailing support for the rights of the Palestinian people, and his firm stand against the war in Iraq.

By his example of humility, respect for non-Christians, and his unfailing support of human rights, he touched the hearts of Muslims and Christians alike during his Holy Land tour to Jerusalem, Amman, Beirut, Cairo and Damascus.

He made history during the trip by being the first pope to visit a mosque and a synagogue. His death united Christians and Muslims, moderate and fundamentalist, in sadness. Leaders from throughout the region made statements praising his contributions to dialogue and efforts towards peace.

In Egypt, the most populous Arab country, with a Catholic population of just 250,000, President Mubarak declared three days of mourning and praised the pontiff for his “long journey of giving, during which he remained a symbol of love and peace and one who called for dialogue between religions.”

**Muslim world
**The highest religious authority in Sunni Islam, Sheikh Tantawi, head of Egypt’s Al Azhar Mosque, called his death “a great loss for the Catholic Church and the Muslim world…He was a man who defended the values of justice and peace and worked for the victory of relations between the Muslim and Christian people based on friendship and love.” In Cairo, at the headquarters of the Arab League, the flag flew at half-staff.

Jordan’s King Abdullah expressed deep grief and said the pope, “devoted his life to calling for solidarity between rich and poor countries, peace, freedom, love and alleviation of suffering,” and made tangible contributions to legitimate Arab issues.

In a cable to the Vatican, President Bashar al Assad of Syria expressed his sorrow and recalled the pope’s visit to Damascus during which the pontiff expressed his strong belief in fraternity between Christianity and Islam and his defense for the Palestinian people.

In Lebanon, home to a million Catholics, the government declared three days of mourning.

Iran’s President Khatami said the Pope commanded the three paths of religious learning: philosophical thought and poetic and artistic creativity.

Perhaps most telling, al-Jazeera TV and al-Arabiya TV, the most widely watched satellite news networks in the region, provided live coverage from the Vatican, and discussed the pope’s contributions to interfaith dialogue, human rights and Arab causes.

Sheikh Qardawi, a popular Sunni cleric who appears regularly on al-Jazeera, praised the pope’s “unforgettable stands against the war in Iraq and the separation wall in the West Bank,” and asked for Muslims to give their condolences to Christians. His remarks were posted on a militant website.

Al Manar TV, run by Hezbollah, Lebanon’s Shiite fundamentalist group, interrupted programming to announce the Pope’s death.

Their spiritual leader, Ayatollah Mohamed Hussein Fadlallah, expressed hope that the “course of dialogue charted by the Holy See will lead to all regions converging on faith in God.”

A message attributed to the militant Palestinian group, Hamas, was posted on a militant website in which the group praised the pontiff and voiced hope the Vatican would continue to support the Palestinian people.

In evidence that the pope’s outreach to Muslims was felt by even some of the most extremist groups, Afghanistan’s Taliban acknowledged the “spiritual loss to Catholics worldwide” and said in a statement that “even though some had launched a Crusader war against Islam, the pope’s voice was for bringing peace to the world.”

Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

ps armughal, i may or may not agree with you (on this issue, i dont really care), but I still will think that I might be wrong about it.

funny seminole, i dont see you drawing broader conclusions about Muslims and the bridge between us and non muslims, based on that article.

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http://www.catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp

minah _pa Please read the article in the above link and tell me that if I don’t:-

  1. believe in the Church

  2. believe that Jesus is the son of God

  3. believe that Jesus is one of three in the Trinity

  4. believe that Jesus died for sins of Mankind

Now tell me, am I not from the damned ones with no hope of Salvation?

I don’t need your personal opinion just what the article states. ( That is a Catholic site).

Out of interest check the following link too.

http://www.artnet.com/Magazine/features/moore/moore10-2-3.asp

Detail of Giovanni da Modena’s 1415 fresco in the San Petronio basilica in Bologna, “thrown into hell, completely naked, with a snake wrapped around his body and a demon next to him about to torture him”

Hasn’t Dante, Italy’s national poet (who I presume must be a devoted Catholic), who had placed Muhammad in the ninth circle of Hell in his Inferno or is it Divine Comedy?

I don’t know what all this fuss is about?

All the religions by default claim the full right to heaven and condemn others to the other place.

Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

Oh for the love of humanity! How could you have such a venom for someone who died.

We are humans first and muslims and christens second….Or are you a muslim first and human second?

Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

great post ibn sadique! very good research. anyway, i guess we took this offtopic, perhaps this thread should be split.

Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

OK,

I post in the WA that I come to Gupshup to learn about Muslims. They tell me go to the Religion Forum, and I will learn.

Todays lesson is not a bright and shining one for Islam I am afraid.

And just for the record, I know of no Christian sect that would see fault in prayer for any man who lived a good and decent life. Quite frequently we pray for victims of tsunamis, earthquakes, wars, whatever, regardless of the victims faith. We do not purposefully exclude those who are not like us.

Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

I know of christian sects that think that praying for the "damned" or "unsaved" or whatever is useless. I've posted examples above OG, as has ibn sadique.

the mural in the Church posted by Ibn Sadique of our Prophet in Hell is a nice example.

And we pray regularly for the maghfirat (forgiveness) of people who die in earthquakes, tsunamis, wars, whatever, in our mosque too.

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But saying a prayer for a religious leader who built bridges between religions, was a man of God, and a man of Peace is somehow off the table for some of the above posters? Sorry, that just sort of sucks.

However, even in the news article above, even the most radical clerics have offered condolences to Christians. Thats at least a genuine effort.

Frankly I am not Catholic, so the Pope has no particular meaning in my life. However, it does strike me, that he lived about as good a life as a Christian can, and that he was a force for good on this earth. I've said a number of prayers for him, and for the people I know who mourn his loss.

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offering condolences isnt off the table as far as Im concerned. but I’ve noticed this tendency amongst posters (specifically you and seminole) to selectively pick out the Muslims they like to hate and then say things like

and

which IMO sucks a lot. dont make such a big deal about what Muslims say about Christians since theres plenty of ammo on this side too.