Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul II

[rvikz]

Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

@armughal

^
bhai meray, i do preaching to the extent i can, and if u think i cud have access to the pope and preach him, u rather over-estimate me…

but i dont know howw preaching is related to the fact that the man who died was an open enemy of Allah…
so i dont think muslims wud be in a good position if Allah asked them why they were mourning the death of a man who believed and professionally preached to others that Allah had a son…

Pakistan praises pope’s services

• Government and MMA leaders, Christians and Muslims grieve Pope Paul’s death

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_4-4-2005_pg7_7

[armughal]

Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

@Code_Red

Not that anyone is deeply sorrowed by his death or anything. After all he was old man, and the fact everyone has to die one day. It is eternal reality. But repeatidly saying the same negative comments about a dead person, is against the rules of preaching.

For example, if a person is dying you need to tell him to recite Kalma, and not to say that you had a sinful life and there is no chance of you going to heaven, burn in hell

But for the sake of aurgument, would you be kind enough to remid me the early years of prophet hood of Hazoor(Pbuh) when his wife and his uncle died in the same year, and thus the year is commonly known as ‘year of sorrow’ can you tell me if his uncle was muslim or not ?

Enemy of Allah and preaching. There is direct relationship !

See according to your logic, All the Arab was practically enemy of Allah( and themselves), preaching made them friends. simple

the man is dead…
the preaching part is no longer an option for him…

the fact is that he died in the state of shirk…
hence we shud not be mourning his death…

the Prophet (saw) had a blood-relation with his uncle and was hence saddened…

[Seminole]

Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

It says alot about how someone practices their faith (any faith) when they deny prayer to such a righteous, peaceful and pious man who dedicated his life to God and the betterment of mankind. These same people aren't even worthy enough to have been the Papal foot-washer, but have the audacity to call him an enemy of God. With this type of spiritual myopia and self-righteousness, is it any wonder why many non-Muslims consider Islam to be a hateful and intolerant religion?

[CM]

Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

Ok this may or may not relate but since when have Christains and Jews been considered kafirs or people who are condemned to hell. After all from my extremely limited knowledge these two religions are considered sister religions of Islam and thus very different from being kafirs.

Isn't the classification:

1. Muslim
2. Jews and Christains
3. Kafirs

Please correct me if i am wrong, but I do believe christains and jews are not considered Kafirs.

[armughal]

Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

@Seminole

righteous, peaceful and pious man who dedicated his life to God and the betterment of mankind

he dedicated his life not to God but to someone who he believed to be the son of God…
and Islam says that God has no son…
so he was totally off track if he thought he was serving God…

so he thought he was serving God, just like idol-worshippers or fire-worshipper do, but he was infact doing something that God has strictly forbidden and called it a sin that will never be forgiven…

[armughal]

Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

@CM

Ok this may or may not relate but since when have Christains and Jews been considered kafirs or people who are condemned to hell.

Quran 98:6
*Verily Those who are kaafirs among the People of the Book (i.e. jews and christians etc) and among the Polytheists (mushrikeen) will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures. *

here u have two types of kaafirs: 1) ahl-e-kitaab and 2)mushrikeen…
and u also have in the same verse that both types of kaafirs r condemned to hell…
and additionally u r informed that they r the worst of creatures…

needless to point out that mourning over the worst of creatures is not suiting for a muslim…

[Seminole]

Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

And Christians believe Muhammed was a false prophet and Islam a made-up religion that has plagerized their prophets and saviour and turned it into something that has nothing to do with Christianity. It doesn't mean a Christian cannot recognize a great man that was Muslim and offer him prayers.

In his belief he was serving God. At minimum, he was a beacon of light in this world, working tirelessly to help those who needed it, raising the moral standards, working for world peace and reaching out to the intolerant of other religions. In other words he was doing God's work and if he doesn't go to heaven, but a useless poster on gupshup does, then there is something wrong with the system.

[CM]

Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

@armughal

Quran 98:6
*Verily Those who are kaafirs among the People of the Book (i.e. jews and christians etc) and among the Polytheists (mushrikeen) will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures. *

here u have two types of kaafirs: 1) ahl-e-kitaab and 2)mushrikeen…
and u also have in the same verse that both types of kaafirs r condemned to hell…
and additionally u r informed that they r the worst of creatures…

needless to point out that mourning over the worst of creatures is not suiting for a muslim…

Thank you. Now firstly it states the kafir among the people the of the book. It does not condemn all the people of the book as sinners - Does it? Polytheists are kafirs, i don’t dispute that.

Now to my other question: As stated from that verse, there are christains and jews who are not kafirs. Correct? If that is true what is the standard of criteria described by Allah to define who is a kafir and who is not a kafir among the christains and jews?

Thirdly is not a person judged by Allah both on his faith as well as his actions?

so he thought he was serving God, just like idol-worshippers or fire-worshipper do, but he was infact doing something that God has strictly forbidden and called it a sin that will never be forgiven…

Could you tell me where in the Quran it is said? I don’t doubt the fact that it is stated, i just need a reference point.

[armughal]

Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

^
by the same principle, not all mushrikeen r kaafirs....
do u agree????

ur second comment can be discussed when u answer the above question....

and ur third comment, about Allah being the judge, then i thought u already knew that it is Allah who speaks in the Quran and not me....

r u asking where Allah is saying that associating a son with Him is shirk????
and where Allah says that shirk shall never be forgiven????

[armughal]

Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

Quran 4:48
*Lo! Allah forgives not that a partner should be ascribed unto Him (i.e. Shirk). He forgives (all) save that to whom He will. Whoso ascribes partners to Allah, he has indeed invented a tremendous sin. *

Quran 4:116
*Lo! Allah pardons not that partners should be ascribed unto Him. He pardons all save that to whom He will. Whoso ascribes partners unto Allah has wandered far astray. *

[CM]

Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

@armughal

^
by the same principle, not all mushrikeen r kaafirs…
do u agree???

Nope, because to my limited knowledge it is stated that all individuals that do not believe in the singleness of Allah are kafirs. The Christains and Jews do believe in a Single entity - Allah. Polytheists by definition do not.

ur second comment can be discussed when u answer the above
question…

and ur third comment, about Allah being the judge, then i thought u already knew that it is Allah who speaks in the Quran and not me…

Question 1 answered. So i wait a response on two. Third question was a question whether i was correct or not. It was not a commentary on your views. So to clarify; Is it not stated that a persons actions are also a basis for judgement and it is not sololy linked to the religious set of views that person holds?

r u asking where Allah is saying that associating a son with Him is shirk???
and where Allah says that shirk shall never be forgiven???

Both actually.

[Seminole]

Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

Depending on how one interprets 'ascribe partners', it could also be said that following a whole set of beliefs (hadith) that gives as much credence to the words and actions of a mere mortal (Muhammed) as they do to God's (Quran) is ascribing a partner.

Is the designation of 'son' really that different? Even Christians don't go outside of their holy book to mimic everthing their prophet did and said as if it were ordained by God. We shouldn't be so quick to condemn others to hell.

Besides, if Jesus were part of God, then it isn't assigning partners to God, it is an extension of God.

[armughal]

Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

CM, the person's actions r secondary....

Quan 2:62
*Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. *

the point here is that they believe in Allah....
and they believe Him to be One and not three or having a son or other things....

and they believe in the day of judgement....
and that they shall answer for their deeds on that day...
and do not believe that someone has already dies for their sins and hence no matter what they do, they shall enter heaven....

[system]

Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

Seminole, do you think the impact of the Pope's work on the earth and those who admired him (which meant most of humanity) and those who pray for him in their own way, give a rats ass if some muslims can't pray for him?

These are the same idiots who thought Osama could go to heaven, but Mother teresa definitely not. :)

[armughal]

Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

^
the idiots who think mother teresa wud make it to heaven far outnumber the idiots who think osama wud make it....

[Seminole]

Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

@Matsui

Seminole, do you think the impact of the Pope’s work on the earth and those who admired him (which meant most of humanity) and those who pray for him in their own way, give a rats ass if some muslims can’t pray for him?

It goes a long way in explaining the division between Muslims and non-Muslims.

[ravage]

Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

[quote]

It goes a long way in explaining the division between Muslims and non-Muslims.

[/quote]

oh get a grip already, seminole. the posters making religious judgements on the pope are themselves religious, and them consigning the pope to wherever they do, is no different from what Hindus and Christians have done in the past and continue to do today.

i have personally seen televangelists come and say on tv that anyone who doesnt believe in Christ and all associated stuff wont be cleansed from the original sin and will go to hell.

[ravage]

Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

here you go semi, incase you need more than my word for it

The only remedy is the new birth (John 3:1,7). We are all sinners by birth and choice (Rom. 3:23). We are not sinners because we sinned. We sin because we are sinners. Not every one is a child of God. Yes, everyone is a creation of God. No one can call God their Father apart from knowing Jesus Christ as their brother/savior. Thus, one must be born again (John 3). Through Adam, we inherit death. In Christ we inherit life everlasting (John 11:25,26).

The power of original sin has been destroyed at the cross (Rom. 6:6). The penalty for sin has been exacted on Christ (Rom. 5:8). Thus, all who call upon the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved (Rom 10:13) from the power of sin, the practice of sin, the penalty of sin, and soon, the presence of sin.

Sincerely, Pastor Belanger

http://www.invitation.org/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=407

and this guy is less graphic about it. i remember one show where they showed a mock hell with screaming people being thrown into rivers of fire etc, before the above logic was sold.

so does Pastor Belanger, in saying that everyone is a sinner and will pay for it except those who call on the Lord Christ, has he created an irreparable division between Christians and the rest of the world?

[Seminole]

Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

@ravage

oh get a grip already, seminole. the posters making religious judgements on the pope are themselves religious, and them consigning the pope to wherever they do, is no different from what Hindus and Christians have done in the past and continue to do today.

But how many Christians refuse to pray for a man because he isn’t Christian? As if he wasn’t worthy when people making these judgments probably aren’t worthy to have shined his shoes.

We aren’t talking about any 'ol kafir here but a man whose works were greater than every ‘religous’ person on this board combined and reached out to the Muslim community, acting as their protector. To say this man is condemned to hell, was not serving God and was the worst of creatures is pompous and self righteous, no matter what your religion or how ‘religious’ you are.

[armughal]

Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

^
ofcourse again u r assuming that his workd r greater than anyone on this board....

remember that he may be important for u as a christian, but for us he was just another 'kafir' who has told a lie against Allah and worse than that he has preached that lie to be the truth coming from Allah....

perhaps we might see him as a bigger criminal than just another kafir....

dont forget that there r ppl who think osama bin laden has done more good than any other man alive or even the deeds of all other persons....

and its not chrsitians that i am talking to....
i am telling muslims not to pray because ISLAM does not permit this and an illiterate muslim slave is better by far than the pope as far as Islam is concerned....