Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul II

Society Religion & Philosophy
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I’ve heard that you can always pray for non-muslims in a general way… which is what most of us are doing here… all we’re saying is that may God reward him for the good he’s done – I certainly don’t see anything wrong with that.

My knowledge is certainly not as extensive as some others here but most people would be referring to this particular commandment in the Quran:

“It is not fitting for the Prophet and the believers to pray for the forgiveness of the polytheists, even though they may be near kin (to them) after it has become clear them that they are the people of Hell.” (At-Tawbah: 113)

If that’s the case, then in today’s day and age, how do you exactly know whether a person is amongst the people of hell. I can certainly understand that in the age of the Messengers, people who deliberately denied the basic truths could be identified because Allah would inform His messengers… and you would not ask for forgiveness for those who have already been condemned.

Also in the Quran, there’s another Ayah which is more general in nuance:

“If you punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them, You are the Wise” (Al-Ma’idah: 118)

My heart certainly says he’s done more good in the world than bad so he deserves some reward for that - the rest… Wallahu Aa’lam.

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Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

I am sorry umar bhai but I tend to disagree.

My disagreement is purely based on Quranic reference and from sunnah.

We can only pray for non-muslims so that they get guidance, just like Rasoolulah:saw: prayed for Umar-e-Farooq Al Azam Bin Al Khattab:razi: or for Abu Jah’l

But when he prayed for his uncle Abu Talib, read what ALLAH:swt: advised him and through him all of us:

Aa’uzu Billahi Minush Shaitanir Rajeem

9:113 It is not (proper) for the Prophet and those who believe to ask Allah’s Forgiveness for the Mushrikun even though they be of kin, after it has become clear to them that they are the dwellers of the Fire.**

So there goes the context of that ayah :slight_smile: He was on Abrahimic religion yet he did not accept Islam.

Whoever says Kalima with tongue and beleive in the Iman-e-Muffassil will be considered as Muslim.

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Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

anwaar is correct this argument has been posted several times before when Mother teresa died or that diana of wales they may have done good action like charity or whatsoever but if clearly they are non muslim how you going to pray for them.

Also this pope lead many people to jahanaam by making them disbeliever many millions in fact so it is nonsense to say it good to pray for a man who make so many people leading them into kufr.

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Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

Umar, in my knowledge the only prayer you can do for non-muslims is that "May Allah guide them to the right path"

That is as long as they live, after that I think no prayer can be done for them, as they had a lifetime to find the truth and they didn't or even if they did they kept denying it.

Moreover, what ever good he did, 'shirk' is one thing that nullifies all good that he did in his life.

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Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

thats all well and good Anwaar, but my question still remains unanswered... in today's day and age when we don't have Prophets who would get revelations about who actually is amongst "people of hell" ... how do we know that for sure... the ayah clearly says "after it has been revelead to you" ??

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Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

ayah does not say “revealed” it says “Clear”

Jesus is not God neither a son of God. Associating Jesus with ALLAH in that manner is shirk and ayah talks about Mushrikun

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Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

o.k. I can certainly see the argument about Shirk… thanks for highlighting that.

In any case, I don’t think any of us have any authority to predict who’ll go to hell or not… I’d still leave the decision to God and just pray:

“If you punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them, You are the Wise” (Al-Ma’idah: 118)

again, its general enough in its nuance.

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Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

[edited]

My earlier stance was wrong. I apologise for that.

Thanks and Jazkallah to a brother very kindly and patiently explaining the correct Islamic point of view to me and same to you AQ.

I have edited my post in this thread and my post in the thread in the general forum as well.

Indeed, we are not allowed to pray for the forgiveness of someone who is non Muslim and has passed away. That is the Will of Allah and we have to submit to it...

ma salama
Irem

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Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

Sure Irem. I won’t give you a proof based on logics as Umar Bhai is more concerned about it. The only thing I have to say to him is that whoever Believes in following ALL 7 things is to be considered a muslim if you hear/read/find him/her saying with tongue. Rest is known to ALLAH:swt: and while a person was considered a Muslim and prayer is allowed for such a person:

  1. Believe in ALLAH:swt:
  2. Believe in Muhammad:saw: as the Last of all Prophets
  3. Believe in All Prophets
  4. Believe in Angels
  5. **Believe in All Divine Books **
  6. Believe in Destiny that whatever good or bad happens it happens with the permission and full knowledge of Allah
  7. Believe in the Day of Judgement

Now coming back to the **proof, **I have very few reference and I am not sure if those will suffice for there may be a number of Munkireen-e-Hadeeth; however these ahaadeeth are based on Quranic ayaat and hence provide the context and background of the revealations of those ayaat:

Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

When 'Abdullah bin Ubai (the chief of hypocrites) died, his son came to the Prophet and said, “O Allah’s Apostle! Please give me your shirt to shroud him in it, offer his funeral prayer and ask for Allah’s forgiveness for him.” So Allah’s Apostle gave his shirt to him and said, “Inform me (When the funeral is ready) so that I may offer the funeral prayer.” So, he informed him and when the Prophet intended to offer the funeral prayer, 'Umar took hold of his hand and said, "Has Allah not forbidden you to offer the funeral prayer for the hypocrites? The Prophet said, “I have been given the choice for Allah says: '(It does not avail) Whether you (O Muhammad) ask forgiveness for them (hypocrites), or do not ask for forgiveness for them. Even though you ask for their forgiveness seventy times, Allah will not forgive them. (at-Taubah 9:80)” So the Prophet offered the funeral prayer and on that the revelation came: “And never (O Muhammad) pray (funeral prayer) for any of them (i.e. hypocrites) that dies.” (at-Taubah 9:84) (Sahih Bukhari 2.359)

Narrated Said bin Al-Musaiyab from his father:

When the time of the death of Abu Talib approached, Allah’s Apostle went to him and found Abu Jahl bin Hisham and 'Abdullah bin Abi Umaiya bin Al-Mughira by his side. Allah’s Apostle said to Abu Talib, "O uncle! Say: None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, a sentence with which I shall be a witness (i.e. argue) for you before Allah. Abu Jahl and 'Abdullah bin Abi Umaiya said, “O Abu Talib! Are you going to denounce the religion of Abdul Muttalib?” Allah’s Apostle kept on inviting Abu Talib to say it (i.e. ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah’) while they (Abu Jahl and Abdullah) kept on repeating their statement till Abu Talib said as his last statement that he was on the religion of Abdul Muttalib and refused to say, ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.’ (Then Allah’s Apostle said, “I will keep on asking Allah’s forgiveness for you unless I am forbidden (by Allah) to do so.” So Allah revealed (the verse) concerning him (i.e. It is not fitting for the Prophet and those who believe that they should invoke (Allah) for forgiveness for mushrikun even though they be of kin, after it has become clear to them that they are companions of the fire (at-Taubah 9:113). (Sahih Bukhari 2.442)

  • This incident indicates that Muhammad prayed for his uncle. While deathbed conversion is not acceptable (an-Nisa’ 4:18), Muhammad also beseeched his uncle to forsake idolatry at his deathbed.

an-Nisa’ 4:18 >> The forgiveness is not for those who do ill-deeds until, when death attendeth upon one of them, he saith: Lo! I repent now; nor yet for those who die while they are disbelievers. For such We have prepared a painful doom.

EDIT: your understanding about Abu Talib’s faith is according to Fiqh Jaafriya, our ahl-e-Tashaiiu brotheran but other 4 school of thoughts tend to disagree with that.

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Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

I will appreciate if you can provide me the context you have for this ayah, and why it was revealed and for whom it was revealed and after what incident it was revealed. Thanks

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Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

Anwaar… from what I remember, this dua was made by Jesus PBUH when he asked Allah to forgive his nation for associating him with God (i.e. shirk)… so may be it is befitting in this context as well.

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Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

Is there any answer to this dua?

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Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

Jazakallah AQ

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Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

Well, there is very little aurgument about "Muslims praying for dead Non-Muslims"

But, we can always say a few kind words, in praise, if the person did some nice work for humanity and all, and that is perfectly allowed and encouraged in Islamic teachings

At the same time reciprocal of the above is NOT ALLOWED. In other word we can not say anything bad about any dead person according to Islamic teachings. That is is big sin. similar to backbiting.

Now Standard Operating Procedure (SOP) regarding Non-Muslims according to Islam, for muslims, is following:

  1. Be a faithful muslim, and learn about Islam properly.

  2. Invite Non-musliims to Islam through personal contact, letters, other forms of contacts (As per conduct of Prophet (pbuh) and companions)

  3. Pray to Allah for guidance of all humanity.

Preaching Islam is a responisbitly of every muslim, Those who were not aware of this, can do so now and write letters to leaders of other faiths, so they may become Muslim. ( As prophet (pbuh) did)

Oh btw, Everyone is free to disagree with me :p

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Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

^
as a muslim nation, we shud not be mourning his death....
all other deeds aside, his preaching of "shirk" has to be his major duty and for that, we have to see him as an enemy of Allah....

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Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

Ever tried to invite him towards Islam ?

He may have become Muslim !

After all many hardcore Kafir, Mushrik become momin, through preaching and will of Allah.

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Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

^
if u want to tell me that he never knew about Islam and its teachings then u must be kidding urself....
whether someone told him about Islam or not, the fact remains that he did preach 'shirk' and this is one thing that Allah says He shall never forigve....

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Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

I dont see anyone saying that shirk would be forgiven !. It is crystal clear that It will not be.

Problem is that we easily shy away from our responsibilities.

Hard part

Preaching, ok... someone else may have done it, others do this. I am busy. After all they wont accept my religion, They already know about this through media.

Easy part

Issue decree, Oh I love this. You are going to burn in hell, Allah will never forgive him/her. He is kafir, he is mushrik ...

Not that I am any good, but can always improve

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Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

^
bhai meray, i do preaching to the extent i can, and if u think i cud have access to the pope and preach him, u rather over-estimate me....

but i dont know howw preaching is related to the fact that the man who died was an open enemy of Allah....
so i dont think muslims wud be in a good position if Allah asked them why they were mourning the death of a man who believed and professionally preached to others that Allah had a son....

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Re: Mourning the Death of Pope John Paul 11

Not that anyone is deeply sorrowed by his death or anything. After all he was old man, and the fact everyone has to die one day. It is eternal reality. But repeatidly saying the same negative comments about a dead person, is against the rules of preaching.

For example, if a person is dying you need to tell him to recite Kalma, and not to say that you had a sinful life and there is no chance of you going to heaven, burn in hell

But for the sake of aurgument, would you be kind enough to remid me the early years of prophet hood of Hazoor(Pbuh) when his wife and his uncle died in the same year, and thus the year is commonly known as 'year of sorrow' can you tell me if his uncle was muslim or not ?

[quote]
but i dont know howw preaching is related to the fact that the man who died was an open enemy of Allah....
[/quote]

Enemy of Allah and preaching. There is direct relationship !

See according to your logic, All the Arab was practically enemy of Allah( and themselves), preaching made them friends. simple