Morals without God

[Lahore_981]

Re: Morals without God

@ahmadjee

Lahore 981, You and I can believe that the sense of empathy and sympathy are given to us by God but that is a belief. It doesn’t prove that a belief in God is necessary to feel empathetic towards someone.

Ahmad,
This statement self contradicts.

[Lajawab]

Re: Morals without God

^^

I missed that...

You'd make a great student of Logic...:D

[Lajawab]

Re: Morals without God

@Anwaar Qureshi

It’s the Tafseer of word **Ool-ul-Albaab **.. ref. Surah Aal-e-Imran ayah 190-195

That was a very fitting reference…

Now, I would like the tafseer of the word Ool-al-bab if that’s possible…

Thanks Anwaar…

[ahmadjee]

Re: Morals without God

No it is not contradictory Lahore because not everyone believes that God gave us the senses. If I still didn’t make myself clear than let me know and I will try to ramble (on).

[Roman]

Re: Morals without God

Then who defines what is moral deed and what isn't? Do we go by the majority opinion?

ahmadjee bhaijan, different people follow different sense of morality. For most of the people it's a combination of both belief in God and personal sense of morality either as programmed or dictated by society or refelction/awareness.

To answer your question about morality without God. Think way back. Times of early human societies or civilizations. After humans were able to gather food more efficiently and had times to provide themselves with other comforts of lives, they realized it's better to live in groups rather than scattered individuals. Living in a group or society required some laws as soon they found out that if someone kills someone else's husband/wife, it hurts. Soon the murderers themselves found out about this killing thing when their own loved ones were killed. So society decided that it's not ok to kill. Killing was not only bad for survival of a group, it was also something that took away the happiness.

Now apply the same logic to other things like stealing or arson etc. Point is, the most fundamental or rudimentary source of morality amongst humans without the fear of God is tied to human pain and happiness. Once the philosophers nailed down the purpose of life kay jee it's persuit of happiness, moralities were easier to define. Also, eventually people had more time to reflect upon life, think, introspect etc etc... and by a chain of deduction from the nature of one happiness and morality tied to it to the other, they got lots of "moralities" figured out. As it became part of society and law, then there were subtle cultural variations to morality which further propagated concepts like nobility, decency, mannerism etc etc.

[bob_chasm]

Re: Morals without God

@ahmadjee

bob, what if the husband doesn’t feel anything. Would it make it all moral?

Is he dead?

regards,

bob

[bob_chasm]

Re: Morals without God

@Sadiyah

^ I would assume it would, as such individuals may not have any strict guidelines (if at all any) to abide by. If they feel okay and good about it, perhaps it’s a good moral at least in their eyes.

No it wouldnt. Empathy has to do with our imagination of what the partner of cheating spouse would feel, not what the actual partner of cheating spouse is feeling. The only way you could think it would be okay is if you thought you would not feel anything if your spouse cheated on you. Some people are so thoroughly abused in their childhood, raised in disfunctional families that they become emotionally confused. They no longer know what they feel and thus cannot empathize with the pain of others. The cheating spouse and it’s acomplice is in this category. It all has nothing to do with belief in God.

regards,

bob

[bob_chasm]

Re: Morals without God

@Lahore 981

I strongly disagree.
The instinct and ability to recognise good and bad are put in human nature by Allah. Man on his own does not know it. Refer to the Book of Genesis and creation of Adam in Bible and creation of man …

Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Genesis: Chapter2, verse 7:
Bible, Revised Standard Edition

Hello Lahore,

You provided proof that Allah has provided man with natural instinct. It doesnt say God provided natural instinct to only those humans who believe in him. It would seem that just like those who dont believe in God continue to have eyes, ears and noses, they also continue to have their natural instincts.

As far as quoting the bible is concerned, perhaps you should look at the verse that says, man was created in the image of God.

regards,

bob

[bob_chasm]

Re: Morals without God

@Lahore 981

^ That is why I have quoted both Quran and Bible to show that every human is linked to Allah and in what manner.

The question wasnt whether Allah created man or not. The question was whether man needs to believe in God to be ethical.

regards,

bob

[bob_chasm]

Re: Morals without God

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

[ravage]

Re: Morals without God

great thread guys :k:

For those who think there can be morals without God:

Then who defines what is moral deed and what isn’t? Do we go by the majority opinion?

For example, God says, thou shall not covet thy neighbor’s wife. In other words, it is immoral to commit adultery. But if God had not declared such an act immoral, one can argue that two consenting adults can have a swing every now and then, there is nothing immoral about it and can go further to say marriage doesn’t include any such restrictions. Then how will you argue that such an act is immoral?

you cant. While lajjo’s state of nature argument is very good, I disagree that this would be our state in the absence of God. Because over millennia, we have evolved a fairly universal justice system dictating interpersonal conduct. Rape, looting, arson, wouldnt suddenly start happening, because they’re against contemporary norms and laws. An example of this would be countries in europe where there is a high percentage of Athiests, there is not a correspondingly high degree of socially unacceptable behaviour. What laws do not dictate (in modern societies) is personal conduct, which is where religion and God comes into play.

As far as personal conduct goes, morality to my mind, in the absece of God, would be behaviour that makes one happy. This could be tied to the state of nature theory by suggesting that one is happy when one doesnt go against his nature, and thereby people would follow their natural/learned tendencies in order to be happy.

In such a situation, the only thing bounding that behaviour would be society’s laws and acceptable forms of behavior. This includes the question of adultery. In previous times, adultery was considered a punishable offence, now it isnt, largely because the issue is no longer tied to religion. Similarly homosexuality was considered immoral in western societies, it is now an acceptable, even moral form of conduct, with legislature in some places to support them. Moral behavior does therefore become bounded by cultural norms/majority opinion, whatever you wish to call it.

These then become fluid concepts, and morality becomes a thrall to the “state of nature” of the majority. Whatever keeps them happy is what is moral. Including high acceptability of adultery, promiscuity, homosexuality and similar things abhorrent from a religious perspective (ie those with a fixed idea of morality)

[ahmadjee]

Re: Morals without God

bob, there are all kinds of people in this world. From those who practice polyandry and polygamy, and those who don't believe in marriage at all .. serial monogamists to those who believe in pure monogamy (Catholics & such).

They all have different morals and so the best answer is that in the absence of God our morals are what we want them to be. And then morality becomes this collective form of consensus on behavior in a culture. Which is all good and dandy but then one cannot argue among cultures if having more than one wife is moral or not.

Roman Bhai, just to understand your point are you suggesting that morality was present before religion?

[Roman]

Re: Morals without God

Ahmadjee bhaijaan, religion was and has been a tool amongst various other (culture, law, norms etc) to enforce morality.

[ahmadjee]

Re: Morals without God

But did morality invented religion? Or did religion dictated morality along with culture and norm?

[Roman]

Re: Morals without God

ahmadjee bhaijan, morality did not invent religion. Spirituality did. Religion contributed to morality like various other norms. It's not black and white like that. There were various sources of morality: Survival of the group/society, better management at collective level, human suffering and happiness, religion, behaviour etc etc.

[cscraja]

Re: Morals without God

At the end of the day, you have a 2X2 matrix - theists and atheists; moral and immoral. To me, those in the immoral-theists are the worst of the lot; above them would be immoral-atheists; then, the moral-theists; the best would be moral-atheists, sheerly because they find no need for crutches like religion or laws.

I wish I had the ability to move to that quadrant

[lussi]

Re: Morals without God

@Seminole

Does one need something deemed as “religious scripture” to know what is good and what is evil? The basics concepts of good and evil (morality) are universal and shared throughout the world by disparate peoples.

lol u have some nerve..now does ur universally shared concept of good include that darkies (negros for ur understanding) have smaller brains than the master white race?

You know for a guy who belives in all this racist crap u sure have a holier than thou attitude…but then again trash aint trash if it aint white..nomesayn homie..

[bob_chasm]

Re: Morals without God

@ahmadjee

bob, there are all kinds of people in this world. From those who practice polyandry and polygamy, and those who don’t believe in marriage at all .. serial monogamists to those who believe in pure monogamy (Catholics & such).

They all have different morals and so the best answer is that in the absence of God our morals are what we want them to be. And then morality becomes this collective form of consensus on behavior in a culture. Which is all good and dandy but then one cannot argue among cultures if having more than one wife is moral or not.

The best answer to what? I thought we were talking about whether ethics can exist in the absence of a belief in God. I am not sure I know what you are trying to say. Can you please elaborate?

regards,

bob

[Seminole]

Re: Morals without God

@lussi

lol u have some nerve..now does ur universally shared concept of good include that darkies (negros for ur understanding) have smaller brains than the master white race?

You know for a guy who belives in all this racist crap u sure have a holier than thou attitude…but then again trash aint trash if it aint white..nomesayn homie..

You have absolutely no clue Mr. SS Officer. The people in my life are more colorful than the ebonics you mimic or the misinformation you spew.

[lussi]

Re: Morals without God

^ i dont know what a SS Officer is but whateva. I'm glad that you have ppl of color around yourself - unforunately thats make ur believe of ppl of color having smaller brains even more pathethic.