Please share your views (with tongue in check, if possible) on if you believe people can have morals without believing in God? If yes, than who defines what’s moral and what isn’t? If no, than what happens to all the good deeds of the good people?
No copy / paste but if you can’t let go of the urge, I will understand.
Re: Morals without God
In the absence of a belief in God, since one can no longer strive for happiness in another world, the most logical pursuit is to strive for happiness in this one, aka hedonism. Here hedonism doesnt necessarily imply immorality, because people are conditioned to act in moral ways by society and culture (the moderator playing a big role), so they wouldnt be happy if they went against that conditioning.
What happens to the good deeds of the good people? I suppose the Islamic point of view is that they get their reward either in this world or in the grave. (re: Hatim Tai)
Re: Morals without God
Does one need something deemed as "religious scripture" to know what is good and what is evil? The basics concepts of good and evil (morality) are universal and shared throughout the world by disparate peoples.
Re: Morals without God
in the absence of belief in a God... i think morals could be dictated by the human need for dependence on other humans e.g. making relationships and helping people out in time of need so that the same people will help you out in your time of need.
Re: Morals without God
morals without believing in God?
Yes, why not. Believing or not believing in god is a very conscious decision of every adult. If someone, during the course of their lives, were to step away from their belief in god, they won't necessarily be doing it to get going with their immoral streak. They won't be unlearning what a civilized society has taught them and its influence will obviously stay with them.
However, on the flip side, why is a society 'civilized' and upholds moral values in the first place? Is it solely because of what the religion says? Does this mean that you can have morals while not believing in god only if the people around you (society at large) have moral values because of god?
Re: Morals without God
Moral values emanate from Allah SWT. Otherwise they have no basis other than in discredited doctrines like utilitarianism or Kantianism.
Re: Morals without God
That's a very tough question to answer. At first, I was going to say yes, people can have good morals without believing in God, then I sort of started wondering if that really is possible. Many nations and people believe in one diety or something else and that sort of compels them to be good. At the same time, much depends on one's human nature and personality. I'm sure it could be possible for many those who do not believe in God to be good.
Morals I believe are values and beliefs that dictates individuals to do things that result in positive outcomes and refrain from acts that have a tendency to hurt and make others grieve.
Re: Morals without God
without beleiving in God, the only thing that will check the morals of a person will be the law of the country where he resides....
and if he is sure no one is seeing him (unlike the fact that God is always watching us) then he'll do whatever he wishes to benefit himself....
so u cud be good before others, but when alone, with no one watching, there is nothing to stop u from doing the worst of deeds....
Re: Morals without God
Just common sense is an answer to this.
“if man has created himself, man is a creater of his own self, then he doesn’t need God” If man is created by God, then definitly Allah(God) is the one to know best what is good for his creation…
Definitly, if one has firm belief in Allah, then one would search heard to look for any source of guidance from Him(SWT). If one doesn’t believe in Allah, then, he would stumble and fumble to strain on his tiny mind to find an escape to satify himself that yes, we can live by morals, not by religion etc etc…
Another thing is that, man’s thinking is limited. Man lacks the ability to see the future. man is unaware of the reality of time. Man has a nature to be “selfish”, a natural instinct. Man has needs and wants. Man is tempted by evil. In short there are many many things that make man completely unable to dictate a set of Morals for himself, being “imperfect” himself…
Man made morals can be beneficial to “his self” only but not to the whole humanity.
Said in another way, just imagine had there been no mirror, it would not have been possible for anyone to know how does he look. Similarly, Religion is a mirror (Given by Allah) which shows us our real face, our real stand and make us see what we cannot see without it.
I guess this is the best way I can put it.
Re: Morals without God
Does New Orleans and the superdome ring a bell?
Re: Morals without God
This is a very very vey good thread......... but i am short of words to explain what i feel....well we have morals because we know that we would be rewarded or punished in the word hereafter accordingly ........... and there cant be any system of punishment or rewarding without any HEAD...... people becoem patient when something bad happens to them(patience is a moral) becuase they know , they will be rewarded in the end or atleast SOMEONE will take revenge....(something like that)
Re: Morals without God
^ I agree with u...and if we didn't have God to guide us about wot is moral and wot is immoral, i think ppl wud follow ideas, beliefs, morals, etc. that wud lead to even more horrible things, then wot are going on now...but yea it's hard to explain...
Re: Morals without God
God has given every person a Conscience to discern right from wrong.
Re: Morals without God
Since Buland mentioned Kant's philosophy, John Stuart Mills is another that comes to mind and his theory of the "state of nature"...
I will try to explain it from my own perspective:
Mills claimed that in the absence of a law enforcing entity such as religion or government, men will be reduced to the state of nature...Meaning they will resort to being what their nature dictates...
Moral laws are the covering over that nature, which keeps it from coming forth from some sort of fear or persuasion...Hence the need for a moral authority whether a king, religious leader, religion or government is a dire need for any society...
However, Mills was optimistic in his view of humans...In the worst case scenario he predicts that one will be brought to a level where one would cause harm to another only to the extent that he himself be able to bear that same amount of harm...
So, what about the difference between someone who is not afraid of violence and someone who is? Let's say in the absence of any laws, what would happen to a non-violent person when confronted with someone who resorts to violence easily?
The non-violent person will bear the brunt of the harm...And according to Mills, causing harm is the criteria of a man's moral scale...
The most classic example of this would be Nazi Germany...Germans were the most advanced, most sophisticated and the most law-abiding citizens of the world...They were the embodiment of civilization...Their lives were dictated by the laws of their society and they worked like a well oiled machine...
But what did they do to the Jews? The most civilised and well mannered people of their time, in the absence of a religious moral code annihilated 6 million Jews...
What is America doing now? What kind of laws would dictate being in more wars than you can shake a finger at and kill more people than any nation on earth ever...
This is the difference between man made laws, which through violence and coercion seek to gain for one's own benefit and religious laws which seek to stop the violence and coercion for the benefit of all...
Re: Morals without God
There are three things....Folkways , mores and laws(morals)....folkways are what humans develope in need like wearing clothes is a folkway....folkway then develops into mores....different styles of dressing is mores......now folkways and mores develop into laws or morals........ so humans are bound to develope habits or folkways and morals or laws are bound to develope from folkways and mores..... i hope you people are getting what i am trying to say...
Re: Morals without God
Sure there is. Morality. Strength of character.
If one does or doesn’t do something out of fear of retritubtion from a daddy figure in the sky, then they really don’t have a moral basis to begin with. They are doing the right things for the wrong reasons. Perhaps a weak or immoral man needs that threat of punishment.
Re: Morals without God
For those who think, there are no morals if there is no God:
If the idea of being moral is to earn sawab, or gain pleasure of God than it makes the good deed a very selfish one.
Foe example, if you feed a poor person because Allah will be happy with you, than you don't have any compassion for the poor, only your selfish desire to score some brownie points with Allah. You don't feel the pain of the human suffering but only taste the fruits of heaven and thus are forced to help the poor. And this selfishness destroys the whole concept of God - the most merciful and compassionate.
For those who think there can be morals without God:
Then who defines what is moral deed and what isn't? Do we go by the majority opinion?
For example, God says, thou shall not covet thy neighbor's wife. In other words, it is immoral to commit adultery. But if God had not declared such an act immoral, one can argue that two consenting adults can have a swing every now and then, there is nothing immoral about it and can go further to say marriage doesn't include any such restrictions. Then how will you argue that such an act is immoral?
Re: Morals without God
Reasoning and empathy dont require a need for a belief in God. Ayn Rand would be a good example of this. Empathy is probably the most important emotion that creates an ethical society and is independent of belief in God. Therefore, we cry when others cry because we relate to their pain at a very basic human level, not because we believe in God. Those who believe in God but dont have empathy are the garden variety hatefilled, violent, sociopathic, reliogious fundamentalists, such as OBL etc, in my view. Godless people without empathy become the Stalins of the World.
regards,
bob
Re: Morals without God
By feeling what the spouse of the cheating spouse would feel, i.e. empathy.
regards,
bob
Re: Morals without God
bob, what if the husband doesn't feel anything. Would it make it all moral?