A moral obligation or a legal one or an ethical one? Firstly she is not seen as a potential spouse. He hasn’t told her that he is interested in her and vice versa. SS just answer a simple question. Would you tell a guy who has not lead you on or is just a new friend you e-mail about your personal sexual problems?
I disagree completely. Marriage is as sacred trust or vow between persons. It is not dependant on their bloody fertility. You just don’t say hey you are impotent, lets get a divorce. I most certainly would not think that as acceptible morally or legally. Its amoral rather. You consider your marriage so weak that the mere fact that there is a possibility she can’t have kids jepordizes your marriage. That is weak and selfish. Not to mention pathetic.
Get realistic: women are leaving time to have children later and later. The older they get, the higher the chances of abnormalities and difficulties. There is a reason birth is easier and less painful when you are younger. If the procreation window is already so small and short, and infertility treatments are so expensive, stressful, and a drain on resources of all manners, yes I would give the option of divorce upfront if it is female factor infertility. It is not a reflection on a weak marriage, but rather being fair to your spouse if they really want to have kids. I think it is an act of love, actually. In the end, it is a personal decision, I sure as hell would not be coming here if I have female factor infertility and asking whether I should offer a divorce. I sure as hell would not be rethinking my decision if some know-it-all intent on shoving their brand of morals down my throat says my decision was loveless.
As for dope's case. Come on, look at the context. They did talk as friends but the whole premise of the situation was a potential marriage. Yes I would get all the ugly out of the way, and I do that with potential friends. If they don't have the stomach to stick around, then I know I saved myself heartache. If they still do, then I share feelings, rather than cold, hard, sterile facts.
Yeah, and adoption should not be forced upon your spouse. If they don't want it, you have no right to tell them they are wrong, assholes, cold, do not love you enough, yada yada yada. Especially in an arranged marriage where it is all about utility.
noones saying u have to force adoption.. surely marriage is stronger than that. Surely u dont need to sacrifice ur marriage because u cant have kids! Isnt that supposed to be the last option?
and honestly, who says u cant love someone even if its arranged...
Sarah is exactly right. What marriage are we sacraficing? Hello?? Lets not get ahead of ourselves. It's not as if they were highschool sweet hearts and all of a sudden the couple finds out they can't have children.These two were introduced with the intention of an arranged marriage. Keeping that in mind, the girl very rightfully informed Dope of potential fertility problems. It is the duty of every DECENT man/woman to notify a prospective rishta of any such condition. No one appreciates being kept in the dark in the guise of building "emotional dependency". Whatever that is.
Dope himself has said he doesn't even know whether can live with her let alone talking about sacrafices. So lets not put the carriage before the horse.
“It is an obligation to tell your future spouse any medical problems you have”
utter bullsiht this. i bet most info regarding fertility or any other debilitating condition is withheld by most families. i wud say she blurted out stuff that puts dope at an advantage. if u dont marry her, it wont end the world for her, she’ll make sure she doesnt tell the next rishta. as for infertility, dont start thinking of a future without kids so soon. as far as i know infertility is defined as not being able to conceive, even after 12 months of trying, which doesnt mean jack. logon kay toa salhaan saal baad bhi bachai ho jaatai hain, what is 12 months?risk of sterility, which means that person will never be able to conceive, is quite another thing.
if u want to save your skin its all up to you, but as for the morality issue, and the ‘subjectivity’ of it, all the people here who r talking of it, i bet they brought many secrets to thier marriages as well.. u can clear off from this situation, there is no morality without accountablity of course, your next rishta might be more smart and have an even more serious condition or set of secrets…then you can sit back and talk abt subjective morality for a lifetime..
You conveniently left out the first part of my quote. I never said baring all before marriage is the norm. Apparently capital letters don’t do the trick.
Here it is again, bolded for your benefit.
It is the duty of every DECENT man/woman to notify a prospective rishta of any such condition.
This comment of yours made me forget what other people have said about you on this forum. This is the crux of this discussion for me. Dope, think about it before you proceed any further.
skhan/ghulail - not just then but at any time, if you are considering any kind of relationship at all with someone.... medical history information that directly impacts the relationship should be disclosed at the outset. Any person with any honor and credibility would announce this BEFORE becoming emotionally attached (ie e-mailing or writing or dating or visiting..... this means any contact.... period). This especially true of anything affecting the ability to have children on either side (man or women) if it is known prior if a marriage is being considered. Nearly everyone expects children eventually after marrying.
I think this is not just better for the man involved but also for the woman involved also. The worst thing I can think of as a woman is to become emotionally involved with someone, hide something, then when the time came where it was revealed, have to suffer the anger and rejection that goes with betrayal and disappointment. If I had withheld the fact that I cannot have children from my current husband and he fully expected me to have them, can I really expect a happy marriage and peace in it when this is bound to come out?
skhan - totally agree with what you said any decent person would..
Dope - In my eyes (so just an opinion, take it or leave it :) ) it has very little to do with strength, but everything to do with character and integrity. I know very little about the person of whom you speak, but personally, I would keep her as an aquaintance and nothing else. She has already proven that with important things she cannot be trusted to tell things openly. And, if as you believe, it is a matter of strength, do you really wish to have a woman not strong enough to be straight with people?
Actually I never said you were “leading her on” . However, you are NOT telling her exactly what is on your mind. And that in my opinion is wrong. Since what you are thinking for the future directly involves her .
When you contacted her back or replied, it showed some “interest” . And its been a few months? She has obviously grown to depend on you to some emotional level. Thats why she is starting to tell you so many personal things. Because she feels you are interested and mayhap care?
Seriously tell her how you feel. It would be cruel to get her to depend on you then decide to call everything off. If you don’t love her and don’t wish to marry her, just tell her.
It’s worse if you keep this undecided thing going.
That is the woman’s choice. Not a biological issue. Plus from what i have seen in this thread she can have kids.
A question for you then, do you get married to have children or do you get married to spend your life with that person? Children are a part of it, that i agree. But that is not the end all and be all of marriage. Say there is an accident and the man can not have kids. Does that mean you divorce him because you want kids? So basically the time you spent, the affections you shared and trust gained become null and void because you can’t have something you want ie kids? Honestly if you feel that a marriage should be dissolved on the matter that you can’t have kids, it is a weak marriage. Because no where in any society is marriage based on the desire to have children. That is a natural out come.
Yes the issue was a potential marriage. She was doing what she felt was right or needed. She needed the emotional support and dependence. A woman will not depend on man for emotional support unless she needed or saw something in the future.
SKhan the discussion me and SS was abstract. It was on the fact if infertility means the end of a marriage. As you can read we have never mentioned Dope or his situation except in passing. The crux of the matter is that myself and SS differ on the fact that should infertility be a reason to dissolve a marriage. Secondly Skhan if you have been in a relationship you know exactly what emotional dependency is when it comes from a woman’s side.
WitchDr. They are most likely right. But hey who cares. That is the problem here. I personally think Dope like any guy likes the fact that she depends on him. Guys have this desire to feel needed and to defend, protect and lastly mark “territory”.
Again, thanks for all the responses. This thread has defintely opened up a pandora’s box of ethical issues.
the issue of disclosure of medical problems before marriage
the issue of rejection of someone on the basis of an ailment
the issue of betrayal of someone’s trust (was it wrong to have posted it on the web
the issue non-disclosure of my true intentions to her
CM and Muslim_queen: thank you for your valuable advice. Before we started communicating, I made it clear to her that we would be only be just “friends.” She and I got into this very casually, as friends. As far as i am concerned, she is still NOT aware, that the idea of giving her a second chance has crossed my mind only recently. So, i am not sure how i am guilty for not disclosing my true intentions to her, since my true intentions until recently were only to be friends with her. After reading these posts, i am starting to think that she had a different intention in mind to begin with, and thats why she contacted me after all these months. I was foolish not to have seen it. So, now, i think i will end the friendship.
CM_ relax…you dont have to bitch slap me across the internet. I agree with most of you what you said, but i disagree with this being a violation of trust. Yes, true she told me in confidence and made me promise not to tell anyone whom we both knew, but was okay with me asking around other people to find out more about it. I believe thats is what i have done here. I dont think anythng has been compromised. Also, i wanted the thread to only discuss the illness, not so much as the ethical issues that go with it. I believe i apologized at some point for the misleading title.
Minah_pa: your advice, as always, carries more weight than the ones by others.
Sadzzzzzzz: thanks…you are a mean hen…
Skhan and SarahSplendour: I i felt your arguments were cogent and brief. I still havent made up my mind whether it is the right thing to do. But i belive she had some ulterior motive to begin this frindship, knowing fully well that at some point i would come around. I feel for her really , but i dont think i have done anything wrong in this. Thanks dudes.
Hmm…from now on anything you say in this thread or on the forum will be taken with a grain of salt. I think you are extremely rude, obnoxious and opinionated. Frankly, i dont care what you have to say regarding this matter. From just a few posts of mine, you were able deduce all that about my personality??. What are you, a retard? I will be the bigger guy and request you to go back and read my posts, and this time, carefully. SHE IS THE ONE WHO INITIATED CONTACT. SHE WANTED THE FRIENDSHIP!!!.NOT ME!!. I hate having to discuss her on this board, but it’s people like you who are just so thick…You think it is possible to wrrite every nuance of what has happend between me and her on a forum like this, so you can jump on the bandwagon?? I tried to refrain from discussing the personal issues, cuz it’s impossible to tell all. Thats why i wanted to only discuss the disease…
you are good in bull sh1tting.