Month Of Muharram

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sheraz CT: *
who are you to decide its not natural? obviously you dont feel the same way so please dont judge..majlis main koi rota hai ya matam kerta hai to kisi ko dikhanay k liye nahi kerta..Allah knows best
[/QUOTE]

its my view. u are free to disagree. I agreed teh to grieve is natural, but ritualistic standardized matam is not a natural reaction, its a learnt programmed approach.

I am not judging.

I am just saying it is not a natural reaction, does not mean its right or wrong.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Pathan Bhai: *
Fraudia, true there is a standardized format for azadari, but nothing without substance lasts for 1400 years.. Kh
[/QUOTE]

Agreed,

Its standardized, therefore its not a natural reaction, kids are taught from a young age how to do matam. Thats my point. Grieving is natural, the elaborate manner of grieving is not. otherwise it would be done innately and for every tragic occassion.

I am not attempting to be sectarian or disrespectful here, just saying that the approach to matam is a ritual, which is the business of people who do that. I am not in the business of saying what others should or should not do.

I have attended plenty of majalis over the years, but never have and probably never will resort to slapping my head or beating my chest, because thats not how I express me sadness or grief at the tragic events of kerbala. Others are free to do that, but should nto say that that is the natural way of commemorating the tragedy.

again no disrespect intended.

Kh

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Pathan Bhai: *
Fraudia, true there is a standardized format for azadari.....
[/QUOTE]

Just after the tradgedy of Karbala took place, the folk of Bani Asad did matam on Ahlul Bayt just as we do today. Women folk of Prophet's family did the matam in similar way too. The tradition is carried forward and is followed till today. It is the way of showing grief and commemorate the event of Karbala.

As for marsiyas and nohas. Imam Zainul Abideen (as)- son of Imam Hussein (as) and great grandson of Prophet (pbuh)- ordered his followers to prepare and recite marsiyas on the anniversiry of ashura. That is why the marsiya and nohas are prepared by Shiites all over the world today.

^
^
:k: Well said.

The crux of the matter is commemorating the tragedy of Kerbala is sunnah of the Prophet pbuh and the ai’mmah (as) who were very visually found to be in a state of grief when muharram approached. How you commeorate is upto the individual. In trinidad they have the “festival of Hosay” in Iran they enacts the martydom with dramas and stage shows in pakistan they have zakiri in india they have marsiya khwani and so forth. But how one commemorates shouldn’t detract from what they are commemorating or the truth of the message of the commemoration and the actual event. “Don’t shoot the messenger”.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Rhia: *
...is commemorating the tragedy of Kerbala is sunnah of the Prophet pbuh and the ai'mmah (as) .....
[/QUOTE]

I think you mean sunnah of "aimmah" and not "Prophet PBUH".

No I meant what I wrote. Thanx

Let me guess your follow-up "how can the prophet comemmorate or grieve that which had not occurred at the time"?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Rhia: *
Let me guess your follow-up "how can the prophet comemmorate or grieve that which had not occurred at the time"?
[/QUOTE]

You guessed it right. Now please do show me a hadith that Prophet Mohammed PBUH used to "commemorate" the future-martyring of an infant also I would be interested to know "HOW" he used to do it. Thanks

How? Crying and Weeping.

There are Ahadith in which the Prophet pbuh indicated and knew of the eventual martydom of Imam Hussain and the cruel way in which he was to be killed by people of his "ummah".

Widely reported Hadith in the Shia gatherings:
When the Holy Prophet(phuh&hf) informed Hazrat Fatimah(s.a.) of the Martyrdom in store for his grandson, she burst into tears and asked, "O my father! when would my son be martyred?" "In such a critical moment," he replied," When neither I nor you, nor Ali would be alive. " This accentuated her grief and she inquired again," Who then, O my father, would commemorate Hussain's martyrdom?". The Holy Prophet(pbuh&hf) said, "The men and the women of a particular sect of my followers, who will befriend my Ahl-ul-Bayt, will mourn for Hussain and commemorate his martyrdom each year in every century."

Others Hadith:
The Messenger of Allah (S.A.W.) wept for his grandson, Hussain (A.S.) on various occasions.
(i) Tradition of Ummul Fazl.

The first narration quoted by us is recorded in Mustadrakul Sahihayn, History of Ibne Asakir and Maqtal of Khwarizmi, other books also mention this incident.

Ummul Fazl the daughter of Harith came to the Messenger of Allah (S.A.W.) and said: "O Messenger of Allah (S.A.W.), I had a dream in which I saw that a piece of your flesh flew off and fell into my lap. The Messenger of Allah (S.A.W.) told her, "You have seen something good, by the will of Allah, Fatima will give birth to a child and you will be present in the house."

Later Fatima (S.A.) gave birth to Hussain (A.S.) and Ummul Fazl was present, as the Prophet (S.A.W.) had predicted. She placed Hussain (A.S.) in the lap of the Prophet (S.A.W.), She said:

"Thus when I saw the Messenger of Allah (S.A.W.) that his eyes were filled with tears. I said, 'O Messenger of Allah (S.A.W.), may my parents be sacrificed for you, why are you weeping?'.

He (S.A.W.) replied, 'Jibraeel came to me and informed me that my people will soon murder this son of mine.'

I asked, 'This son?'

'Yes', he (S.A.W.) replied, 'And he gave me the red dust of his grave.'

Al-Hakim says, "This is an authentic hadith according to the standards of Bukhari and Muslim, but they have not included it in their collections."

(ii) Tradition of Zainab Binte Jahash
A similar type of narration has been presented in the books: Tarikh Ibne Asakir, Majmauz Zawaed, Tarikh Ibne Kathir etc:

Zainab says: One day while Hussain (A.S.) was in my house and near me at the staircase, and then I became thoughtless. The Messenger of Allah (S.A.W.) entered.... He (S.A.W.) said, "Let him be (as he is). The Prophet (S.A.W.) stretched out his hands while he was performing the prayers and took Hussain (A.S.) to him. I said, "O Messenger of Allah (S.A.W.), I have never seen you do this before?"

He (S.A.W.) said, "Jibraeel came to me and informed me that this (Hussain) will be killed by my Ummat." I requested him, "Then show me the dust of the land, where he will be killed." And he gave me some red earth.

(iii) Tradition of Ayesha (R.A.)
Abi Salma has been recorded in Tarikh Ibne Asakir, Maqtal Khwarizmi and Majmauz Zawaid to say:

Ayesha (R.A.) said: The Messenger of Allah (S.A.W.) had seated Hussain (A.S.) upon his thigh when Jibraeel came and asked, "Is this your son?"

"Yes", he replied.

Jibraeel said, "But your Ummat will soon kill him after your demise."

The eyes of the Prophet filled with tears.

Jibraeel said, "Would you like to see the land where he shall be killed?"

"Yes", he replied.

Then Jibraeel showed him the fine dust of his grave.

In another narration there is a variation where Jibraeel is reported to have indicated towards Iraq and took some red dust from it and showed it to him and said, "This is the dust from his fatal battleground."

(iv) Tradition of Umm-e-Salma (R.A.)
Mustadrakul Sahihayn, Tabaqaat Ibne Saad, Tarikh Ibne Asakir and other books have mentioned the following tradition from Umm-e-Salma (R.A.):

The Messenger of Allah (S.A.W.) was sleeping one night when he awoke with a start. He was in a state of terror. Then again he went to sleep and once more woke up with a start. This time he was more worried. Again he went to sleep and woke up. In his hands was some red dust. He was turning it around in his hands.

She said, "What is this dust, O Messenger of Allah?" He said, "Jibraeel informed me that this Hussain will be killed in the land of Iraq. I asked Jibraeel to show me the dust of the land where he will be killed. And this is that dust."

Please cross reference them.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Rhia: *
How? Crying and Weeping.
....
[/QUOTE]

Thank you for posting these 'ahadith', I understand why if these ahadith existed were not included in "Sunni" sources. Anyway, my next question: which sunnah is better? of Prophet PBUH or others?

Also, is there any other 'hadith' which shows that Prophet PBUH cried/wept every year as long as he lived? on 9/10th Moharram?

Sunni sources? Brother can you even recognise your own sources?

The sunnah of the Prophet pbuh undoubtedly and this is which we follow and this is which our aimmah have always followed.

In answer to your second question I don't know of any such hadith. However this does not make the significance of Kerbala and Muharram any less significant. If anything I'm sure if you look for it its attributed significance may be found in Hadith literature and corroborated by them. Do you believe that Muharram/Ashura should not be commemorated at all or do you say you simply disagree with how it is commemorated?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Rhia: *
Sunni sources? Brother can you even recognise your own sources?
[/quote]

Do you have a problem?

[quote]
The sunnah of the Prophet pbuh undoubtedly and this is which we follow and this is which our aimmah have always followed.
[/quote]

Your own post showed that Prophet PBUH cried/wept on the news that Hazrat Hussein RA will be martyred, did he beat himself? chained? used swords/knives? he went out in public crying/matam-doing? According to your own quotes answer to all qs is : NO. Then how can you say that matam the way its done is sunnah of the Prophet PBUH, but may be of "aimmah".

[quote]
In answer to your second question I don't know of any such hadith. However this does not make the significance of Kerbala and Muharram any less significant.
[/quote]
I am not suggesting Karbala as "insignificant".

[quote]
If anything I'm sure if you look for it its attributed significance may be found in Hadith literature and corroborated by them. Do you believe that Muharram/Ashura should not be commemorated at all or do you say you simply disagree with how it is commemorated?
[/QUOTE]
I am not sure if it should be carried out, but the way it is done is surely a big question.

I have no information which suggests that the prophet read marsiyaas, hit himself on every 10th moharram etc.

eitherway..as i noted before. My issue is not whethe rit is religiously mandated or not. but its a cultural practice and cultural approach to do matam, and not some innate naturally occuring phenomenon.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Changez_like: *

Do you have a problem?

[/QUOTE]

No but obviously you do when you can't recognise your own sources of reference. Please ask someone to help you out to spot the obvious.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Changez_like: *
Then how can you say that matam the way its done is sunnah of the Prophet PBUH, but may be of "aimmah".

[/QUOTE]

Please show me where I have said that.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Changez_like: *
I am not sure if it should be carried out, but the way it is done is surely a big question.
[/QUOTE]

Ok you do recognise the tragedy of Kerbala was indeed significant but don't agree with its commemoration every year, is that correct? If yes, then why don't you agree with the commemoration of such a hugely significant effect which is commemorated by both Sunnis and Shias alike? I won't bother with how its is commemorated or done because everyone including myself has issues with that.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
I have no information which suggests that the prophet read marsiyaas, hit himself on every 10th moharram etc.
[/QUOTE]

How people commemorate is upto them and as i've said different people will have different cultural practices but that does NOT and should NOT detract from the essence of the message of kerbala. The prophet as I've mentioned was grieved by the foretelling of Ashura. That is what I meant by commemmoration. Or maybe like changez you also believe Muharram and ashura should not be commemorated at all, even if only by lectures and ibadah.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Rhia: *

Or maybe like changez you also believe Muharram and ashura should not be commemorated at all, even if only by lectures and ibadah.
[/QUOTE]

Please go back and read my previous posts. I have maintained that I understand grieving, and actually have been to majalis on numerous occassions. I just dont cry out loud or hit myself because thats nothow I express myself, and to me that is not natural.

someone said grieving was a natural phenomenon, and all i have stated is that grieving is, but the standardized approach is not natural, its learned.

so please dont assume that i dont have respect for the people, or understand the tragedy. I just dont observe it in the same manner as many have been taught to do.

^
I apologise.

I pretty much said similar thing that some people will commemorate differently. some ppl may feel it is natural to cry and others may not. thats no problem and it shouldn't be an issue. the core of remembering kerbala and muharram in my view is not matam nor is it whether you cry or not etc nor whther it is "natural" or not. The main is reason is in myview understanding the reasons for the tragedy of kerbala through the majalis lectures etc and to apply the lessons learnt to develop oneself. My actual point was it is annoying to find that ppl take the different methods most of which ARE cultural and traditional (which not everyone agrees with) of commemorating Muharram to discredit the actual message or wont take time to understand what its actually about.

changez like i am sorry for my extreme bluntness in the earlier but when i said that the Prophet pbuh and the aimmah as wept /cried or commemorated muharram i never implied nor did i mean to imply any of what you have said about using knives etc. If you read some of my other posts you'll come to know my exact views on that. I have said and i repeat none of our scholars condone or partake in such activities. What they do encourage universally is majalis speeches about the tragedy of kerbala. That is the essence of our commemoration.

QUOTE RHIA:No but obviously you do when you can't recognise your own sources of reference. Please ask someone to help you out to spot the obvious.

Show me where I can't recognise our own sources.

Please show me where I have said that.

You said that Prophet PBUH's sunnah is better, and look at the way matam is done. Now tell me if that is sunnah of Prophet PBUH or not?
Ok you do recognise the tragedy of Kerbala was indeed significant but don't agree with its commemoration every year, is that correct? If yes, then why don't you agree with the commemoration of such a hugely significant effect which is commemorated by both Sunnis and Shias alike?

I'd look at Sunnah of Prophet PBUH to see if he did that or not, and if he did then HOW. I'd simply follow him on that.

Rhia good we clarified, on the majalis lectures, i also can not stand the overly dramatacized approach the speakers take..just like I can not stand the overly "passionate" speeches of some khateeb's at Jummah.

I feel much more at ease sitting with some people and discussing it, what the sacrifice means to us etc rather than someone screaming in my ear.

Again its not an issue withthe observation/commemoration as you noted but the discomfort with the way its done. Some may say that I almost have an outsider perspective becuase I did not go to majalis as a kid, but as i noted I dont like the khateebs who do "pur-josh" lectures either.

The reason I am talking about this is that, in some of these majalis I attended, some people openly claimed that since i was not doing matam as they were, that I did not understand the event or had love for the ahle-bait. I think that sort of thinking is ridiculous.

changez-like, I believe I have answered your other questions. About the sources, well following the header "other hadith" in my initial post are sunni sources.

Fraudz said:

The reason I am talking about this is that, in some of these majalis I attended, some people openly claimed that since i was not doing matam as they were, that I did not understand the event or had love for the ahle-bait. I think that sort of thinking is ridiculous.<

Agreed. This kind of thinking is more a reflection of the lack of understanding of these persons than anything else.

As for the majalis well this "more drama less substance" attitude isn't specific to these lectures as you've pointed out. Its a wider subcontinent thing be it for Jummah Khutbas or anything else Shia Sunni included. It could be because there is not a standardized or centralised form of recognition for Khateebs as in lets say in egypt or Iran for example, i don't know for sure. Having said that there are Aalim speakers who motivate and really make you think about certain things and this make the lectures worth going to.