[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Insaniyat: *
To cry is a natural instict...
[/QUOTE]
very true. When listening that tragedy mostly people are unable to control their emotions and they cry which is a natural process..
Lusi I know of no one who's still crying for Shah Rukh Khans acting.... at the spur of the moment people do cry .. it's natural.. what's objectionable is this year after year of drama.. yes I said it.. i grew up in a 90% Shia neighborhood..I know.
What are you people upset about about? The crying or the yearly commemoration of the single act which saved Islam and its principles some of which you follow today? And in any case, whats so wrong about either?
Rhia, Islam is Allah's religion.. it doesn't need saving from anyone.. do you seriously think Yazid's rule would have 'killed' Islam?? How good are today's "Islamic" rulers?? How good were the reigns following Yazids'?? weren't they also dictators who imprisoned scholars and dictated hadiths to justify their totalitarian regimes? did Islam die?? it got adulterated yes.. but anyone who wishes to follow it can still do so..
Hussain's battle was also political.
The only reason you can follow it despite its still highly adultrated form, the only reason you can stand up to rulers who claim to represent Islam and say with conviction that they don't is because of Hussain's sacrifice. Otherwise today the Caliph would have been the rightful Ameerul Momineen, the "true representative of God", whilst doing everything contrary to Islamic laws. Political, most definitely, it was a political necessity as much as a religious one.
This is off-topic here, I did discuss it at length and historical context in the Human Rights topic. No-one replied.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
Rhia, Islam is Allah's religion.. it doesn't need saving from anyone.. do you seriously think Yazid's rule would have 'killed' Islam?? How good are today's "Islamic" rulers?? How good were the reigns following Yazids'?? weren't they also dictators who imprisoned scholars and dictated hadiths to justify their totalitarian regimes? did Islam die?? it got adulterated yes.. but anyone who wishes to follow it can still do so..
Hussain's battle was also political.
[/QUOTE]
Dont take it as a negative comment, but you're strongly recommend to read a decent book on the Islamic history.
did any of these political power games change what was revealed to the prophet by God?
little human, woh bachay thay, i am sure they were just laughing not at karbala ofcourse [astaghfirullah] but just at the teacher and mabe one person laughing set off a chain reaction, u know laughing is contagious.
i am sunni and have grown up in pakistan and know for a fact that sunnis also respect muharram completely and also accord great ehteraam to the incident and month. u will notice no sunnis hold any functions on 9th and 10th muharram…
maybe they do it to a level less than shias but sunnis also feel deeply sad abt the karbala incident…ofcourse…
my cousins and i being sunnis always used to cry when they had that talk on the 9th and 10th muharram on ptv..everyone does…
i really pray for shia sunni unity :k: next time if u encounter one intolerant sunni, plz remember she/ he is the exception not the norm, and for the sake of the unity of the ummah, just ignore her/him :k:
Rhia as I told you most of them know good urdu…meaning they know what a Shaheed is…and all…but I don’t know …:rotato:..I don’t quite understand then why they don’t understand..
Lajawab I don’t understand what exactly you mean by ‘Are you kidding me?’..it was natural for a teacher to cry when reading the event…
*they were surprised is that Muslims are taught that their Shuhada are alive and Allah (SWT) has promised them a reward that not even the imagination can conceive. * …they weren’t surprised but had silly smiles on their face …and with regards to what i know about them they probably won’t know what you have mentioned and being surprised regarding this is not likely.
Fraudz some by hitting themselves which I personally dont really understand. …I want to say something regarding this..once on TV I saw a Russian soldier coming to a Chechen family and taking the kids dad away…the kids were trying to hide their tears…the mom was desparate BUT the Grandmother of the kids meaning that young man who was being taken away’s mother an old woman…was resisting..she told the soldier that you have family too you have children too…don’t do this to us…but soldier said it was an order…the man was taken on the vehicle…and until they old woman had strenght she ran along the vehicle and wail and do matam very naturally …“Give me my son” “Don’t take him away”…she knew that once he’s taken away he’d not return…I have seen Palestinian woman wailing and hitting their chest too…if you know what i mean…
I personally have felt like hitting myself for personal griefs sometimes..and I felt it natural…I mean it’s the GRIEF…it’s the feeling even tears can express…
And slipping of a teacher and hearing the event of Karbala…producing the same effect on 14 year olds…
..oh my God
Irem
I know what you are trying to tell me and I understand what you mean but like i said it was the majority that were laughing...:)
Another thing is Irem...YOU have no idea how many non-Shias(or sunnis if you like to)...don't know about Karbala
And don't worry I don't have problems with Sunnis...it's just that I felt sharing it here...:)
Another thing is regarding whether Imam Hussain(as) saved Islam..........i once heard this sentence
If it wasn't Hussain then Islam would still be there but that would be Yazid's type of Islam......Mohammad ka nahin hota......:)
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by little human: *
Another thing is regarding whether Imam Hussain(as) saved Islam..........i once heard this sentence
If it wasn't Hussain then Islam would still be there but that would be Yazid's type of Islam......Mohammad ka nahin hota......:)
[/QUOTE]
I completely believe in this. From history, I found that it was the event of Kerbala and our Prophet's family sacrifice that distant real Islam from the twisted Islam that was being practiced under the regime of Yazid.
Yazid openly proclaimed to be Kahlifa-e-Khuda (he wished!), openly made fun of our Prophet (pbuh) and his family.
All the haraam things were coverting to halaal under his regime and many people were wondering whether this is real religion of Allah.
Then stood the saviour of Islam, Imam Hussein and rest of our Prophet's family.
Women gave their chadors, sisters gave their brothers, Imam Hussein gave his head. Gave his 6 month old Ali Asghar. Then did a sajda to Allah thanking him for enabling him to save Islam.
" Shah ast Hussain, Badshah ast Hussain,
Deen ast Hussain, Deen e Panah ast Hussain,
Sar daad, na daad dast, Dar dast e Yazid,
Haqa'a ke bina La'ilah ast Hussain."
Translation from Farsi to English:
" King is Hussain, King is Hussain,
Religion is Hussain, The protector of Religion is Hussain,
Who gave his head, and not his hand to hand of Yazid,
Verily Hussain is the foundation of "La'ilah"
*Originally posted by little human: *
** …I want to say something regarding this..once on TV I saw a Russian soldier coming to a Chechen family and taking the kids dad away…the kids were trying to hide their tears…the mom was desparate BUT the Grandmother of the kids meaning that young man who was being taken away’s mother an old woman…was resisting..she told the soldier that you have family too you have children too…don’t do this to us…but soldier said it was an order…the man was taken on the vehicle…and until they old woman had strenght she ran along the vehicle and wail and do matam very naturally …“Give me my son” “Don’t take him away”…she knew that once he’s taken away he’d not return…I have seen Palestinian woman wailing and hitting their chest too…if you know what i mean…
I personally have felt like hitting myself for personal griefs sometimes..and I felt it natural…I mean it’s the GRIEF…it’s the feeling even tears can express… **
Right but teaching kids that this is a way they have to express grief every year is less of a natural emotional thing and more of a cultural aspect. I am very familiar with moharram and have been to majlis on numerous occassions. some people hit themselves and some dont. actually some questioned why I sat there and listened without wailing of hitting myself.
One of my college pals committed suicide a few years after graduation, i recall completely breaking down when i heard about it and it would impact me everytime i would see his pics etc etc. a few years later i did nto react that way, Feelings were still the same, he was a good pal of mine and I always feel guilty that I was not there when he needed me the most..but the sadness and its expression became different. I did not react the same way year after year.
Again, I still dont understand it and maybe never will. It does not mean I am stopping others from doing it. To each his or her own.
**And slipping of a teacher and hearing the event of Karbala…producing the same effect on 14 year olds…..oh my God **
new teens.. what else can you really expect?
Br. Fraudia, I may be speaking for only myself here but i put Allah, his Prophet (pbuh), and Ahle Bayt (as) above so-called worldly relationsips, i.e. wife, mother, father, friend etc.
Again, that is just my personal view.
Surdaar we are talking about emotions here. Different peopel ahve different ways to express their rmotions. I dont understand the standard matam approach that is used, the standard words that are used, and then the whole adding on of chains and blades and what nots in some cases.
So one puts God, prophet(s) and prophet's family in high regard, thats fine, however the point was that we dont observe personal losses of family members in the exact same manner year after year generation after generation, why institutionalize and standardize this mourning.
is there Matam for others as well? e.g. Imam hassan who was also martyred?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
Surdaar we are talking about emotions here. Different peopel ahve different ways to express their rmotions. I dont understand the standard matam approach that is used, the standard words that are used, and then the whole adding on of chains and blades and what nots in some cases.
So one puts God, prophet(s) and prophet's family in high regard, thats fine, however the point was that we dont observe personal losses of family members in the exact same manner year after year generation after generation, why institutionalize and standardize this mourning.
is there Matam for others as well? e.g. Imam hassan who was also martyred?
[/QUOTE]
So azadari being standarzied makes it wrong?
May be thats your way of viewing things.
And Yes, every Shia masjid and imam bargah i have known, holds majalis/programs for each Imam and sahabhis of Prophet of Allah.
kh
*Originally posted by Pathan Bhai: *
*So azadari being standarzied makes it wrong? *
no makes it un-natural. I am not in the business of saying things are wrong or right.
May be thats your way of viewing things.
we were talking about expression of grief being natural, and crying being natural.
I agree with that but a standardized ritualized and institutionalized approach and manner of grieving that is taught and passed down generation to generation is not natural, its learnt and taught.
**And Yes, every Shia masjid and imam bargah i have known, holds majalis/programs for each Imam and sahabhis of Prophet of Allah.
kh **
each Sahabi? I doubt it.
But is the martyrdom of imama hassan or hazrat Osman mourned in teh exact same manner with nohay marsiyay and matam?
Nusairee 
Fraudz Sometimes I feel time does more than heal it makes you forget…
I can completely understand the part about the breaking down with relation to your friends’ case…ask me…*sighhh
And Hazrat Imam Hassan(as) 's shahadat is commemmorated but I am not sure about Hazrat Osman…but not in same way as Imam Hussain’s coz I think Hazrat Imam Hussain suffered alot…I mean more…but I am not sure…
Little human
I understand what you are saying, I dont have an issue with people commemorating such a significant event, its should be commemorated, Of course people feel sad about it, its natural. But the way its dpecited is not natural. I can sit alone in a corner and introspect or pray or whatever, someone may cry.
But events where the person reading teh marsiya reads is basically in teh same way its read everywhere else, and people hit their heads and cry and yell "oh ali asghar" and "hai hussein" its simply not natural.
peopeol can continue doing it, its their perogative. My only argument is that the manner that the grief is expressed in is not natural. thats it.
who are you to decide its not natural? obviously you dont feel the same way so please dont judge..majlis main koi rota hai ya matam kerta hai to kisi ko dikhanay k liye nahi kerta..Allah knows best
Fraudia, true there is a standardized format for azadari, but nothing without substance lasts for 1400 years.
We believe in the narration where our Prophet Mohammad promised Bibi Fatima (as) and Imam Ali (as) that there will be a nation who will mourn Imam Hussein (as) and his family for every year till the day of judgement.
As for crying for Imam Hasan(as) and other righteous Sahabhis(ra) , yes it does take place. But judging from the knowledge shown from your previously, i am sure you know why its not done on the same scale. Kh