MMA - thoughts?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by aMiGo: *
I am full of hopes that MMA can do some good things for the countrly. Purely secular parties are undoubtly unhealty for the Islamic Country of Pakistan. Islam should encapsulate everything including law and order, and society as a such.

Having said that I hope MMA can implement a healthy true religion in the country and contribute in making it a technologically, socially and economically advanced couuuuuntry :)

As far as Hijab is concerned, the islamic ruling which is agreed upon by 99 % of the scholars, is that it is cumpolsory for a woman to wear islamically compatible clothes which includes covering ones head. Burqah as a such is more a traditional piece of cloth.
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just because a lot of people agree on something doesn't make it right. 'Hijaab' the way we know it is not compulsory.. it's one of the many things scholars have found convenient to thrust on womenfolk.

stop talking rubbish everbody knows hijab is fard if you have evidence it is not fard then bring it!

ak47,

There is a difference between compulsory by religion and compulsory by state.

No one will doubt that prayers are compulsory, be it those who believe it is to be performed 3 times a day or 5. Yet you cannot prove from Quran or Sunnah of AnHazoor (saw) that he forced people to come to mosque. Where Sahabah would go and knock on doors or that those who didn't come to the mosque were persecuted by him. Even though the Hadiths of AnHazoor (saw) talks very passionately on being observant on prayers, yet there is no mention that the state or community is responsible for making people come to mosque. Azaan is called, those who come, come by choice!

Similar is the case of Hijab, regardless of the fact you consider it compulsory or not.

"There is no compulsion in religion." (2:256/257)

Sadly, these are the kind of actions that these so called religious parties & their affiliates will take & support as they are symbolic & good for PR & getting people excited like yourself. They don't know jack about economy, global or regional; they have no plan for education other than getting more money for their madrissa's and many more ... The only thing they rally on is Islam of which they have their own biased closed minded views.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ak47: *
stop talking rubbish everbody knows hijab is fard if you have evidence it is not fard then bring it!
[/QUOTE]

my dear ak47, I never said 'hijaab' is fard.. you said.. it.. so prove it.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
just because a lot of people agree on something doesn't make it right. 'Hijaab' the way we know it is not compulsory.. it's one of the many things scholars have found convenient to thrust on womenfolk.
[/QUOTE]

When 99% of the scholars agree on something it can not be wrong, so says Quran and so says Prophet(pbuh). The obligatoriness of Hijaab is mentioned both in Quran and Sunnah, in different ways.

If you dont want to beleive this, then feel free do beleive whatever u want. Im not spending my time to explain such trivialities to you.

:)

aMiGo u would do yourself a favor by starting out to find the word "Hijaab" and it's meaning per it's use in the Qur'an.. that's lesson no. 1.. do come back for more. :)

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Question: *

Mr. Rajput I am not intruding and not trying to be a custodian of Islam.

Thats the problem when some one try to atleast make someone realise people start bashing like they are the only one who make sence.

Now what makes u think I am trying to be the custodian of Islam. I was trying to make a point. And that is praying 5 times a day is "farz" but some people take it as if they feel like praying they would otherwise its all good. Same applies for women to cover herself. It is the responsibility of the women to cover and hide herself from na'mehram. And since PCG said who the hell MMA is to force hijjab I was replying to that.

I don't know why people start bursting on others with these remarks "hey u the custodian of Islam" without even thinking what they are talking about. Dude do you even know whats mandatory in Islam and whats not?

I have seen womens who would not even step out of their house before making sure they are covered from head to toe. And this is not some thing they are being forced to do infect its their own beliefs and will. I would suggest you to know your religion before you comment others.
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I know my religion and I ask you not to distort it. It is you who brought religion into the politics board. If you pray 5 times a day then kudos! What I do to fulfill my obligations as a Muslim is my personal matter. I am tired of seeing Pakistani and other Muslims becoming activists and telling women what to do. Can you make a woman wear a hijab? Maybe in the type of Islamic utopia you envision right? But how can you control the nafs and imaan? It comes from the heart.

Let me place this in a political context: Our next door neighbors the Afghanis tried to implement the Shariat fully and followed a one of the strictist school of Islam (wahabism), but can you tell me that all immorality was wiped out? Prostitution, Alochol still existed albiet under cover. Now is that better? Again if you have every Muslim women covered up like Iran does do you think immorality has been wiped out?

Lets not legislate morality because it sounds good on paper and we all as Muslims would love to see a true Islamic society, but the unfortunate reality is that it cannot be done.

was it not the mma that refused to talk to Musharraf, when he CORDIALLY invited them for talks after the whole cracking down on religious organizations?

Instead it was these independent religious parties that got together to form this anti-Mush coalition.

I mean, if these people were the ones who got ticked off that there was going to be regulation in madrassa education, and they didn't want to accept the FACT that religion is being misused for political schemes within Pakistan, then how open-minded are they?

In fact, they've asked all American troops to be booted out of the country. I'm sorry, but its this American presence that is bringing in an improvement in the Pakistani police force, and its these people that are making Pakistanis walk in a straight line, even if its just temporary.

How good of a muslim are u, when you're turning the cheek to your fellow mullahs when they're waging jihaad for no purpose while the vast majority of Pakistani citizens are suffering in strife??

All I've heard from them since they've got into office is that they wish to bring an Islamic govt into being, and they want the US army wallahs out of the country. They've totally ignored the real issues at hand. Okay fine, if you want to set up an islamic govt, at least tell us what your game plan is. Tell us, are u going to put in a talibanish set of laws and then expect all problems to fix themselves or are you going to actually put some effort into fixing the country's problems?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Mr Xtreme: *
I don't think this is even a sect issue. My problem with these people is that they will be concentrating on issues which have less importance, i.e., beards, hijabs etc and not on education, health, economy and progress.
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i agree with you nobody talks about how thye are going to improve
the life of poorest of the poor or provide water supply in both countries.
more worried about how to build a temple instead of house for the poor or toilet facilties.

  • **Jaab Musharraf, Uncle Same Hoon Razi,

  • Tu Kya Karay Ga Qazi ?**

:rotfl: :hehe: :rotfl: :hehe:

Pakistani Cleric Calls for Better Relations With U.S.

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — The leader of a radical Islamic group that made major gains in Pakistan’s parliamentary elections called Tuesday for better relations with the United States.

Maulana Fazal-ur Rehman, leader of a six-party alliance of hard-line Islamic groups called the United Action Forum, also insisted Washington must soften its attitude toward Pakistan’s Islamic parties.

“We would like to have better ties with America, but there will be no compromise on national issues,” said Rehman, who claims to have held “very successful” coalition talks with major parties.

Also Tuesday, Pakistani police backed by FBI agents arrested four men in a refugee camp for Afghans. The men were suspected of close ties to Usama bin Laden’s Al Qaeda network, police said.

On Monday a 115-member contingent of U.S. soldiers arrived for joint military exercises with Pakistani troops in eastern Punjab province.

In campaigning for the Oct. 10 elections, Islamic parties promised to withdraw Pakistan’s support for the United States in its war on terror.

But since they won 45 seats in the 342-member National Assembly – a major improvement over their previous handful of seats – the leaders of the Islamic parties have appeared more conciliatory toward the United States.

**“We will be very flexible and cooperative with all inside and outside Pakistan,” **Rehman said, but added, **“We have won elections because the majority of the people opposed President Pervez Musharraf’s policies on Afghanistan.” **

Musharraf, an army general who became a key ally of the United States in the war against terrorism after the Sept. 11 attacks, has vowed to continue his country’s support for coalition forces.

Because no party controls even one-quarter of the seats in the national assembly, other major groups are exploring whether or not to form a coalition with the United Action Forum.

Rehman declined to go into detail on his discussions with the pro-Musharraf Qaid-e-Azam faction of the Pakistan Muslim League or with representatives of the Pakistan People’s Party of exiled former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto.

But members in the People’s Party said they urged Rehman to soften its approach toward the United States.

Rehman said he would advise other leaders of his Islamic alliance on his talks when they meet in Islamabad on Wednesday.

“We know that we alone can’t form a government at the national level,” but other political parties know the alliance’s strength is significant, Rehman said.

The pro-Musharraf faction holds the largest bloc of seats – 77, and Bhutto’s party follows with 63 seats.

Musharraf has promised to transfer power to a new coalition government next month, but he will remain as president and holds the power to sack the prime minister and dissolve parliament.

I think we should let them get a chance in running the government because this is the 1st time the MMAP had a landslide victory in Balochistan and Sarhat(NWFP).

I know people have their own views and opinions but instead of just making the differences between each other, lets just see what they do.

I mean nothing has started yet(or has it?), so we shall wait and find out.
They are educated and have knowledge about secular as well as religious beliefs and teachings.

I dont think they seem like those hardcore/extremist fundamentalists as the media and western world say they are.

Lets hope for the best and bright future of Pakistan :k: and May Allah (SWT) help guide Pakistan in the right path as well as the Muslim Ummah. Ameen!

Ok Fella get ready to be criticized!!!

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
aMiGo u would do yourself a favor by starting out to find the word "Hijaab" and it's meaning per it's use in the Qur'an.. that's lesson no. 1.. do come back for more. :)
[/QUOTE]

The word Khimaar is used which kan be translated to head covering. I used Hijaab in a broader sense anyway.

024.031
YUSUFALI: And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss.
PICKTHAL: And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigour, or children who know naught of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed.
SHAKIR: And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their **head-coverings over their bosoms, **and not display their ornaments except to their husbands or their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or those whom their right hands possess, or the male servants not having need (of women), or the children who have not attained knowledge of what is hidden of women; and let them not strike their feet so that what they hide of their ornaments may be known; and turn to Allah all of you, O believers! so that you may be successful.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by aMiGo: *

The word Khimaar is used which kan be translated to head covering. I used Hijaab in a broader sense anyway.
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Great.. so as a first step you recognize the incorrect usage of the word 'Hijab'.

Now for lesson no. 2..

khimar is not head covering

it's just covering. The command in 24:31 is to draw whatever covering a woman is wearing over jyoobihinna.. her chest and not her hair or head.

That is what my understanding was too -- that the arabic word khumaar or khimaar or whatever is a covering, not necessarily a head covering.

At any rate, it says to draw it over your bosoms, like a dupatta draped across the chest.

pak tiger is right, this is getting off topic. My original intent was not to malign the hijaab, but it was to put forth my fear that it would be made mandatory and that a state that isn't too Islamic to begin with has no right to enforce these kind of things when there ARE BIGGER ISSUES AT HAND. I mean, I dont see your logic if you're supporting them trying to pass dress code laws, when a great majority of Pakistanis are not able to put food on their tables. Its an issue of priority, not whether or not the hijaab is the right way to go.

And, if they did make it mandatory, they'll have hard opposition, cuz most women dont like wearing it anyway, and plus, the opposing pol parties wont stand for it.

Pakistan is far more a sophisticated country than Afghanistan for there to be a taliban-style government. For one thing, there are many agencies that keep checks and balances in place so that if any government did decide to bring in a decree that was deemed unacceptable then they would not be able to do it. (I seem to think of Turkey on this point).

And besides, the religious parties have only come third in the elections, the most that they can hope for is to form an alliance with the PML_Q, and get some very limited concessions, like a discount on halva, free sheep-skin pointy hats for all males over 45 and making naat-qawalis compulsory upon the people and on every Thursday in Parliament there will be halva-puri scoffing sessions.

As far as Hijaab/Khimaar is concerned, there are solid proofs but proof only if you accept Allah and his Messenger, if you reject the Messenger outright then there is no debating with you, for you have chosen your aqeedah and manhaj and you can then proove whatever tickles your fancy.

I think it would be appropriate if we all contemplated upon the seerah of our Nabi (phuh), and realise that for the first 14 years of his nabouwat he did not teach others to pray, fast, give zakat, or any of the other mandatory practices. He simply taught others to understand the concept of at-Tawheed - LAILAHAILALLLAH. Once this was understood properly, then and only then did the people accept commands from thier creator.

You see, If I accept the infinite wisdom and knowledge of Allah, then who am I to question the commands in the Qur'an and the sunnah? It is very much like Surah al-Khaf, where the Khizr did some things that seemed really bizzare to the Nabi Moses, the khizar killed an innocent youth, damaged a fisherman's boat, did free building-work in a village from which they were thrown-out, but in the end when they were explained all made perfect sense (read the surah for the complete story.)
If there is a disease in my heart and faith, then rather than to make silly lame excuses, I should admit that yes Allah is right and I am wrong. If I don't have a beard on my face its not because Islam is dynamic and has changed, its not because beards were a cutltural thing back in 600AD, it is only because I am weak in faith and have succumbed to western values - Yes I am wrong.

Like I have mentioned already in a HT thread, there will never be a khilafat, shariah hakumat, or any form of government based upon the deen of Islam, until the people of Pakistan have understood the concept of LailahailALLAH. Then, and only then, will you see women voluntarily wearing hijaab, and the men growing beards. Then, who could dare stop a khlifah from being established?

Until such a time, any tom/dick/harry/abdallah who comes along and tells you he is going to form an Islamic government is simply going to just line his own filthy pockets and send his sons to harvard yale cambridge and oxford.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *

Great.. so as a first step you recognize the incorrect usage of the word 'Hijab'.

Now for lesson no. 2..

khimar is not head covering

it's just covering. The command in 24:31 is to draw whatever covering a woman is wearing over jyoobihinna.. her chest and not her hair or head.
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YusufAli, Shakir and Pikthall Khimaar translate Khimaar into veil/head-covering. Several other scholars have done the same thing. 99% of the intellectual say Head-covering is obligatory. We have hadithes emphasizing this. Great scholars through time have emphasized this. And here we have YOU, a guppy, who asserts it is not.

As I said, ur entitled to your opnioun.

Back to the topic :)

PCG :) I also beleive that MMA should not only shoot out decrees here and there, but should also do hard work in making Pakistan a prosperous state. IMHO however, this task can be most effectively be pursued when the state itself is Islamic and is based on Islamic Principles and laws. People should themselves understand that what God and his Prophet(PBUH) has said is the best thing for Pakistan.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by ahmadjee: *
**ak47
*,
"There is no compulsion in religion." (2:256/257)
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ahmadjee

If you want to talk about closed minds then fine but you should also open your mind when you quote ayahs of quran you should get the meaning of the ayah and its context.

The ayah you quote no compulsion in the deen is in reference to non muslims especially when the muslims where fighting jihad opening new lands. They cannot as some westerners like to quote "spread islam by the sword" force non muslims to become muslim.

this ayah is not for people who already muslims because it complete contradiction to say oh ok today i don;t feel like beliving in this part of islam because then you invoke the ayah in surah al baqarah verse 85

*Do you believe in part of the Book and disbelieve in another part of it? What reward has anyone of you who does so, except disgrace during worldly life, while on Resurrection Day they will be driven off to the harshest torment? God does not overlook anything you do! *

Just to quote one hadith i coincidently happened to read realted to hijab being fard.

by Aaisha (r.a) that Asmaa, daughter of Abu Bakr (r.a), came to see the Prophet (SAW) wearing a thin dress. The Prophet (SAW) turned away from her and said: " O Asmaa ! When a woman reaches puberty she cannot reveal any part of her body except this and this (pointing to his hands and face)".

Hands and face not head or hair or part of hair. Hand and face only hope all those who think wearing hijab is multiple choice think again. :eek:

Just some clarifications, as per my limited knowledge, on the hijab/khimar issue.

Khumur = covering (plural) (in the ayah)
Khimar = covering(singular)

A study of the history of Arabia indicates that women did wear head covering (so did men, btw, it was a cultural thing because of the heat), but during wars (amongst tribes etc), they would bare their chests so as to spur their men on. It was also a part of fashion to leave the chest exposed and 'head covering' hanging loosely behind the back, hence it was asked to draw the coverings over their bosoms.

The head covering was a part of the 'Khimar' and hence was not ordered separately. Couple this with the ahadiths found on this subject, and we can easily understand what the required covering is.

Having both, a theoretical understanding, and a practical example of what Islam should be like, are equally important. Unlucky are those who deny the understanding of the Prophet sallalahu-aleyhe-wasallam and choose to interpret Islam with no sense of perspective and background of Quranic ayats.

And Allah subhanaho-wa-talah knows best.

Sorry for going off-topic, but since some resident guppies have been doing it in almost every thread, I suppose its time to follow suite. :)

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ak47: *
Adnan how can you force a person who is already convinced of the idea this is a contradiction no?

Adnan it is job of government if it claims to be islamic to enforce islamic laws obviously if it is kufr laws then it not gonna apply law regarding hijab.
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Im sorry missed the point of your first sentance.
The govt then shouldnt be islamic. The people who claim to be Islamic "leaders" should lead within the confines of the mosque ad Madrasa. If a govt cant fullfill the basic requirments of the people, then they dont deserve to be in power. And Like I said before, if the MMA insists on idiotic ideological crusades, it will NOT be in power again. Remeber, the same people that voted them into power are the same ones that kept them out of it in past. Its not some sudden enlightenment that suddenly overcame the thousands that voted for these people, but just the circumstances of the time. Circumstances will change, and the MMA will have to change aswel. In the end, its all about feeding, clothing, and educating your people. They ca be as Islammist as they want, but they wont win again unless they stick to these basics.