MMA - thoughts?

Society Religion & Philosophy
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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by aMiGo: *
I am full of hopes that MMA can do some good things for the countrly. Purely secular parties are undoubtly unhealty for the Islamic Country of Pakistan. Islam should encapsulate everything including law and order, and society as a such.

Having said that I hope MMA can implement a healthy true religion in the country and contribute in making it a technologically, socially and economically advanced couuuuuntry :)

As far as Hijab is concerned, the islamic ruling which is agreed upon by 99 % of the scholars, is that it is cumpolsory for a woman to wear islamically compatible clothes which includes covering ones head. Burqah as a such is more a traditional piece of cloth.
[/QUOTE]

So your saying Pakistani women should be forced to wear Burqa?

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No one disagrees there, its heir right, but what most are worried about are their policies.

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Thanks for the ‘historical perspective’ ammarr.. By now you should have realised that the practice of ‘covering one’s head’ is not “Islamic” but more cultural. The only command given by Allah for ALL women is to cover their chest with their covering

If one insists on interpreting Qur’anic laws within the confines of a certain time and geography then it can easily be said that the subject verse was for the women of those time alone since it only talks about their ‘khimar’.. not for women living in regions who do not have a ‘head covering’ in the first place to draw over their bosoms.

But I do agree that we are way :topic: now. So back to MMA… hopefully they’ll stay in the opposition and learn from the sidelines being newbies to the parliamentarian process as a party.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by aMiGo: *

The word Khimaar is used which kan be translated to head covering. I used Hijaab in a broader sense anyway.

024.031
YUSUFALI: And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss.
PICKTHAL: And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigour, or children who know naught of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed.
SHAKIR: And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their **head-coverings over their bosoms, **and not display their ornaments except to their husbands or their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or those whom their right hands possess, or the male servants not having need (of women), or the children who have not attained knowledge of what is hidden of women; and let them not strike their feet so that what they hide of their ornaments may be known; and turn to Allah all of you, O believers! so that you may be successful.
[/QUOTE]

Thats such a literaist interpretation. This could also mean a psychological barriar of morality, rather then a physical one.
Its so conveniant for some Muslims to be literal when it serves their intrest and not so when it doesnt. I SAY AGAIN... If Koran is to be read literally, SHOULD WE NOT KILL ALL NON BELIEVER, AND SLAY THEN WHERE WE FIND THEM????

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[QUOTE]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
The **ONLY* command given by Allah for ALL women is to cover their chest with their *covering*

[/QUOTE]

so cover the chest, and leave the rest exposed since the only command is to cover the chest? No seriously, let me play the devil's advocate today? :)

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Adnan

No, because whether its literal or not, it has conditions associated with it. There are many statements in Quran that deal specifically with that time or a specific incident, or specific conditions.

literal or not.

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Elo there,
Hmm I’d think not, after reading the following:

029.046: And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, “We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam).”

16:125: Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance.

and this if you’re interested.

Since the verse you quoted has been explained in context, maybe you’d like to explain the ‘slay and kill’ verses in their context? Understanding of religious rulings is dependent on both the literal and the logical understanding(Qiyas).

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ak47,

The verse I quoted relates to all, Muslims and non-Muslims. And I explained that the teachings of the holy prophet (saw) were right in accordance with my understanding. My example of no compulsion in forcing sahabah's come to mosque was my proof that I didn't take the verse or the teachings out of context.

If you disagree, show me the proof where AnHazoor (saw) punished people for not holding fast, saying prayers etc. which everyone will agree are 'farad' on Muslims.

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Adnan,

  1. I did not say that women should be forced to wear burqa. Actually, I am not sure whether an islamic state should do so or not. Can someone shed some light on this? By giving references of course. Im not interested in hearing peoples personal opinions.

  2. Ehh..not in a physcial sense? My brother, thats why I provided 3 well-known translations. Not only one. Undoubtly, there is a physical dress-code in the verses.

Sorry for ruining ur thread PCG eventhough I tried no to.

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Here are somethings to expect:

All businesses will have a break for every prayer for employees who want to go and pray (if not forced to shut the business).

Make Friday a weekend instead of Sunday, I'm not sure if thats permissible by constitution.

MMA will "achieve" only some apparent goals, which people can observe. Perhaps NWFP will have "one Eid" and share the fasting days (unlike 2 Eids). I don't think they have enough vision for correcting Pakistan's direction (or Province's direction) towards better economy.

May Allah SWT help us all.

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The line about slaying non-believers seems to conflict with this does it not?

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My final point is summarized by this web site. They make some interesting points.
www.submission.org/dress.html
As for the MMA, which is what this thread is about, they can do anything they want, as long as they dont start forcing stupid rules on people.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by aMiGo: *
Adnan,

  1. I did not say that women should be forced to wear burqa. Actually, I am not sure whether an islamic state should do so or not. Can someone shed some light on this? By giving references of course. Im not interested in hearing peoples personal opinions.

  2. Ehh..not in a physcial sense? My brother, thats why I provided 3 well-known translations. Not only one. Undoubtly, there is a physical dress-code in the verses.

Sorry for ruining ur thread PCG eventhough I tried no to.
[/QUOTE]

Ok. Im not really against Hijab itself, my whole point is, you can never force anything on anyone, Hijab has to be a personal choice.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PyariCgudia: *
pak tiger is right, this is getting off topic.

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Actually, it is already :)

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[QUOTE]
Originally posted by ammarr: *
so cover the chest, and leave the rest exposed since the **only* command is to cover the chest? No seriously, let me play the devil's advocate today? :)
[/QUOTE]

Very Good ammarr.. see it isn't difficult.. just opening up our minds to questions will make answers come to us as it's Allah alone who guides .. not scholars or jurists.

Although I could simply respond that if I take the traditional scholar's understanding of a 'traditional-head-covering over chest', that still leaves your question bare open.. doesn't it? ;)

Here's what I have gathered so far on the subject of gayb.

gayb in Arabic is used for any opening with TWO sides to it. Thus for the body of a woman, the gayb would be the area of the breasts, the area under the arms, the vagina area Farj as well as the hands, feet, nose, mouth and ears.

Thus it will then be incorrect to confine the use of gayb as merely the breasts of a woman in 24:31 since that will lead to a wrong understanding of the minimum dress-code requirements; i.e the woman can cover her breasts and walk around naked revealing everything else (with or without the head covering).

The area of the head (mouth, ears, nose) as well as the feet and hands all fall under the EXCEPTION to being covered which is mentioned as Ma Zahara in the same verse.

Ma Zahara is literally translated as "that which protrudes", thus the limbs (head, feet and hands) are all protruding Zahara from the body and therefore are exempt from being a part of Zeena.

It is upto the believing women (not the state) to draw the cover over their gayb and not reveal their Zeena to anyone except those allowed.

and Allah knows Best.

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Two things PA,

[quote]

Although I could simply respond that if I take the traditional scholar's understanding of a 'traditional-head-covering over chest', that still leaves your question bare open.. doesn't it?

[/quote]

Actually no- if we look at it from the historical perspective, it is obvious that women WERE wearing actual clothes and the command to cover the chest was in addition to what she was already wearing.

[quote]
gayb in Arabic is used for any opening with TWO sides to it. Thus for the body of a woman, the gayb would be the area of the breasts, the area under the arms, the vagina area Farj as well as the hands, feet, nose, mouth and ears.

[/quote]

[quote]
It is upto the believing women (not the state) to draw the cover over their gayb
[/quote]

Hope you can be a little clearer here. What exactly do you consider a part of gayb?

and lastly,

[quote]

Ma Zahara is literally translated as "that which protrudes", thus the limbs (head, feet and hands) are all protruding Zahara from the body and therefore are exempt from being a part of Zeena.

[/quote]

Getting confused, let me see if I'm following this:

Wala yubdayeena zeenatahunna meaning and do not show off your zeena (your interpretation: hands, feet, head do not form zeena and hence there is no ruling over covering them. The rest of the body however is a part of zeena)

illa li-bu'o latihinna meaning except for your husbands .. (and so on to the rest of the people)

Hence you are allowed to show off your zeena (the rest of the body apart from the hands, feet, head) to all the mentioned people?

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Adnan Ahmed: *

Ok. Im not really against Hijab itself, my whole point is, you can never force anything on anyone, Hijab has to be a personal choice.
[/QUOTE]

Yup, that is YOUR point.

I would like to see some credible references on this matter before "making up" my mind. :)

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by aMiGo: *

Yup, that is YOUR point.

I would like to see some credible references on this matter before "making up" my mind. :)
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Well, on a personal note, if someone were to force some stupid law on me or anyone I know, which no one is even 100 percent sure is true, I would smack them in the face with a Koran and tell them to keep reading. :)

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Im pleased to see ur overwhelmingly respectful treatment of the Quran.

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lol… :hehe: Thanks:)