military procurement mistakes by PAF

Society Military and Strategic Issues
1

in your opinion what errors did PAF high command make in procuring jet fighters

for me

1-supermarine attacker ! worthless straight wing plane

2- Not buying Mirage F-1 when hopes for getting F-16 evaporated in late 80s
it not as good as 2000, but cheaper and definately a match for GCI-less mig-29 of IAF

3-not setting up a mirage building factory in late 60s in cooperation with Iran when the shah offered it]

4-Buying F-104 , instead shud have bought F-100 super sabre , a grt plane not as fast as f-104 , but better range,payload and air combat capabilities

5-backing the afghan bandits in the 80s which resulted in very bad relations with USSR and hence no chance of getting mig-29/su-27 in post-cold war era

2

This is the story of Pakistan, A son without a Father and Mother, a rebellion, who destroyed his childhood by not learning from this mistakes. He destroyed his teen year by fighting and getting involve in the wrong habits, adult life was being friends with wrong people, wrong habits, due to bad politics and bad judgment accidentally lost his right arm but even than he didn't learn from his mistakes, still hanging around wrong crown and expecting help from wrong people. He supported untrusted, backstabber neighbor in the fight with another neighbor and by doing this he destroyed this own resources.
His working life was full of corruption and wrong decisions. He wanted a easy way out, begging and borrowing more and more Money, which caused more corruption and family feuds and fighting. He spend money on things he didn't need, and now no one is willing to help him, he is alone, depleted, and fighting someone else's battles, and now on verge Of Bankruptcy.

3

It is still not too late.

Poetry you love to listen
4

Re: military procurement mistakes by PAF

Funny not balming it on India and BJP.

Aaj Kiss Baat Par Gussa Aaya ??????
5

India is part of the problem but not the whole problem.

6

Why do you Indians like to troll on Pakistani forums???

Even IF they blame India, they are doing so on their own forums, they aren't going to Indian forums and doing so, which is more than I can say for 99% of the Indians on this forum

7

Beggers can't be choosers which is what I will sum it up as! Btw, Pakistan was supposed to go to F-4s and F-5s in mid sixties had the 65 war never happened! America didn't really intend the jets to be used for indopak wars since they were also cozy with indians one way or the other [supplies in 62 war which was unlike to do for a soviet ally].

I have never heard about the Mirage factory offer but I am talking it with a lot of salt considering how big of a stooge the shah was of the US and french would be competing with the americans! The shah was offered and willinging to invest in the f18 project but then he was desposed!

Mirage f-1 comes down to MUCHO DINERO which, again, PAF is in the habit of getting things for cheap + the american bias..

Btw, afghan war was a necessity but supporting wahabiism was not! You would rather sacrifice the geostrategic stability by having ruskies and indians sitting on both sides of the border for some mig27s and sukhois? Do you believe pakistan's interests are served now by a superpower sitting across the border? I don't know why people are naive to think all this when we had daud khan moving troops to pakistan [even zahir shah didn't do it] in bhutto's time.

PS I know it may come as a surprise to PPP lovers who worship bhutto as Allah that bhutto govt was responsible for igniting the flame of the "mujahideen wars" in afghanistan when northern alliance [at least some like rabbani, masood] uzbeks, tajiks were provided to by Pakistan as a tit for tat for afghanistan's desstabilizing moves in Pakistan!

8

Re: military procurement mistakes by PAF

[quote]
Btw, afghan war was a necessity but supporting wahabiism was not! You would rather sacrifice the geostrategic stability by having ruskies and indians sitting on both sides of the border for some mig27s and sukhois? Do you believe pakistan's interests are served now by a superpower sitting across the border? I don't know why people are naive to think all this when we had daud khan moving troops to pakistan [even zahir shah didn't do it] in bhutto's time.

PS I know it may come as a surprise to PPP lovers who worship bhutto as Allah that bhutto govt was responsible for igniting the flame of the "mujahideen wars" in afghanistan when northern alliance [at least some like rabbani, masood] uzbeks, tajiks were provided to by Pakistan as a tit for tat for afghanistan's desstabilizing moves in Pakistan!
[/quote]

solution ; we shud have had good relations with USSR to begin with...and that idioit bhutto shud not have made that alliance between china-US possible

if we had soviet backing we didnt need 3rd rate chinese F-6 , secondly USSR wud not have supported india in the bangladesh war

problem is from the start pak was ruled by generals , chaudries , nawabzadas etc who were always afraid of soviet influence

9

[quote]

]Beggers can't be choosers which is what I will sum it up as! Btw, Pakistan was supposed to go to F-4s and F-5s in mid sixties had the 65 war never happened! America didn't really intend the jets to be used for indopak wars since they were also cozy with indians one way or the other [supplies in 62 war which was unlike to do for a soviet ally].

[/quote]

i heard that too, F-5A was a grt plane for 60s and maybe even F-100.
But i doubt they wud have given the F-4 to pak at that time.plus it was too expensive to operate with its 2 engines and sparrows

[quote]
I have never heard about the Mirage factory offer but I am talking it with a lot of salt considering how big of a stooge the shah was of the US and french would be competing with the americans! The shah was offered and willinging to invest in the f18 project but then he was desposed
[/quote]

shah was a tyrant and a filthy criminal no doubt but he was very helpful to the equally corrupt and tyrannical rulers of pakistan !
it was with shah's help PAF got 90 candair sabres in late 60s , which were mostly paid by iran
the offer of mirage factory is true its in tom coopers book on 'iran-iraq war

[quote]

Mirage f-1 comes down to MUCHO DINERO which, again, PAF is in the habit of getting things for cheap + the american bias..

[/quote]

well PAf already operated lots of mirages in 80s so why not another one
esp since many middle eastern countries bought mirage F1

actually if we had relations with isreal kfir was an ideal plane for PAF in 80s-90s, rather than the worthless F-7s from china
Kfir was as good as mig-21bis in air2air , plus it carried a load heavier than Mirage in air2ground missions with decent range.
It was as cheap as a Mig-23 , but w/o BVR weapons but far better atrike capabilities

10

Pakistan now should focus on building Jf-17 for both air force and Navy. Pakistan already signed the agreement to purchase 36 J-10/F-10/F-20 and 1st batch of 8 F-10 should arrive by 2010.

Salami - Ek Izafi Rupayya
11

Re: military procurement mistakes by PAF

^ What would be special about a naval JF-17? More payload hence more power [two engines?].

I don't think JF-17 is cut out for naval role yet! It is an a2a interceptor and i don't think can really be called a bomb truck like sukhoi, which actually is a true multi-role fighter! The plane should be rolled out and tested in "real environment" already as we are already too late with new specs coming in all the time!

Pakistan does need dedicated air support squadrons for the navy [esp if navy is going to get its own AWACs] and new ports like gawadar, ormara [base], and gadani or somiani where govt is thinking of setting up a new port? Historically, we are too army specific in our country!

Log Kia kahenge!
12

Re: military procurement mistakes by PAF

[quote]
shah was a tyrant and a filthy criminal no doubt but he was very helpful to the equally corrupt and tyrannical rulers of pakistan !
it was with shah's help PAF got 90 candair sabres in late 60s , which were mostly paid by iran
the offer of mirage factory is true its in tom coopers book on 'iran-iraq war
[/quote]

No doubt about his help for Pakistan * but french would be competing with the US and when it comes to mucho dinero, all NATO and western alliance will go down the gutter!

I wonder why he didn't set up the factory as it would have given iran a boost and more bargaining power to set up a US factory like the f16 factory in turkey though I don't know if it is still functional now?

[quote]
well PAf already operated lots of mirages in 80s so why not another one
esp since many middle eastern countries bought mirage F1
[/quote]

I think the most famous one is Iraq but then did we have relationship with iraq [a soviet ally again] to push through a 'discounted package' for PAF?

[quote]
solution ; we shud have had good relations with USSR to begin with...and that idioit bhutto shud not have made that alliance between china-US possible
[/quote]

The classic play all sides while friend to no side? :D I think ethiopia did that right up to WWII, hence they were never "colonized".

A lot could've been done but it wasn't. There was lot of leftist undercurrent in E. Pakistan / E. Bengal which we could've used to cozy up some with the soviets while pro-amreeki w. pakistanis should've done their chaaploosi to the west! But, apparently that was too much to ask of a young republic where people are loud and stupid RATHER THAN be cunning and charming like the indian diplomacy.*

13

Pakistan did received few Mirage V from UAE, not sure if they are in service.

I heard that Spain is looking for the buyer for its 44 Mirage F1. Does anyone know if they sold their Mirage F1.

14

Re: military procurement mistakes by PAF

Mirage 5 is not Mirage f-1?

We have bought from australia and libya but didn't know about uae.

15

Re: military procurement mistakes by PAF

[QUOTE]
Why do you Indians like to troll on Pakistani forums???

[/QUOTE]

Its a great entertainment value at the end of hard days work. Here in India if I claim this as entertainment I will be charged entertainment TAX.

Who does not like a free lunch????

Chocolate Hero - A Tribute to Waheed Murad
16

LoL, I know the difference between Mirage V and F-1. Mirage V are ground-attacker and reconnaissance aircraft but in PN they are used as anti-ship role armed with Exocet missiles.

Back in 2004 Pakistan received 40 Mirage V from Libya and 28 Mirage V from UAE. And some of the aircrafts were upraded to Rose II. If I remember correctly, I read it somewhere that out of 40 Libyan Mirage only 16 were upgrade to Rose II. I guess other 24 will be used for parts only.

17

Re: military procurement mistakes by PAF

^ mirage F1 is a generation ahead of V and III
its more agile, has BVR misslies and much better avionics for strike
in iran-iraq war one F1 even shot down a F-14

18

Mirage Rose 4 Upgrade

19

Is that for real? Seems like a photoshop. Never heard of Rose IV upgrade. If it is real then, great.

TiME Pass~*~ JuLy ~*~
TiME Pass~*~ JuLy ~*~
TiME Pass~*~ JuLy ~*~
TiME Pass~*~ JuLy ~*~
20

Re: military procurement mistakes by PAF

^^ How many Mirage-IV Pakistan have... last I knew, it was only IIIs and Vs. and is there any aircraft as such as Mirage IV or 4

Height of hatred in Indians towards Pakistanis..