Re: Men who are not against polygamy [merged]
TLK....you said "Please explain how will you support the 5th poor widow after you run out of your 4 nikah limit? "
can you please explain how you will control your excessive desires for women after you run out of your 4 nikah limit?
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Good question LP, but I cant answer that without being politically incorrect.
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polygamy for most people and especially in our times is definitely about sex and ayaashi...
not that there is anything wrong with ayaashi. I'm a pretty ayaash, obaash type myself. mashallah. but don't cloak it in some religious/moral garb. call it what it is... and it is ayaashi.
also, if polygamy is okay universally now just because there might have been a societal need for it once upon a time, then polyandry should be okay as well because I'm sure at some point somewhere, there must have been a shortage of women. so lets be cool with polyandry as well. oh but then men and women are different, right? God gave them different roles, etc, etc. right?
Why cannot people get thier heads round a simple aspect.
Yes, you could assume polygamy is religiously snactioned ayaashi. Yes, there are several functions of polygamy, furfilling 'ayash' needs is one.
Who said it is not - referring back to TLK's post-if a man wanted to support a women there are other ways.
-Do not forget the Prophets and Pious rpedeccersors did not either always refrain from 'ayashi'. The like of H.Ali had a slave girl- who he did 'ayashi' with inspite being married and h.fatima detesting it,and even other sahabies agitated by it.
-King Solomon- also did 'ayaashi' when he had 1000 sexual partners.
-It was common in earlier times for men to have more than 1,2,3,4.
And lets say a lady was married for 'ayaashi'. Provinding she and others are still looked after well, it is still a good deed for the man for taking the responsibilty of and giving security to a women.
So while a man condemned for being an ayaash-well he still may be earning swaab- as he still took some poor girl off the road.
The koranic quote relevant. Does not in any way ban or discourage man to take on extra wives. It merely warns men of the truth that its is hard to treat them all fairly. And as quoted by diwana, I dont God is expecting absolute perfection- as some posters seem to imply.
If it were this impractical or disencouraged. The we would not see it common in the prophets time for people to have more than 1 wife. The Prophet (pbuh) knows more than all of us, and accordingly he would not be advising people to marry more than once, which he did if relevant.
If anyone seriously ahsa problem they dont they go and complaint to God. While your at it - do also remember the fact hes preparing for each of us 70 wives up there.
Im not particularly pro or anti polygamy. But what I am agsint is clever ruts who take advantge of respect, and try to exceed the limits. I dont think empathy is now deserved.
It sure is extra responsibilty to take on extra wives, many times social problems stem.
But its a fact its permitted. Infact The Prophet wives were also very possesive and jealous of him/.
If you dont like or prefer it just say it.
Ofcourse social problemns arise- which is the reason most men although inclined dont do it.
Although that doesnt mean theres arnt any propects whatsoever. Some men may actually need another women- andits betetr to do so legally than illegally.
MAYBE men are created of a polygamous nature, and possibly that verse partly is the addresing wisdom of that.
Can anybody explain to me the plight of the frustrated sAhabies who came to the prophet for permit for castration for being less thier wives- and THE PROPHET allowed them to be promiscuous with the local women???
Can anyone answer me why no other alternative was possible? I mean this is not ave.joe but the Prophet who somebody is coming to help for.
Is this not cheating or two timing or whatver? Most here may agree to ladies dislikeness, but why complain to us.
We didnt pass those laws or genetics.
Regarding the question of a brother or father having multiple wives.
Well I woudnt prefer it-The same way I do not prefer a father or grandad up thier with 70 women.
But how many people here can gurantee thier brothers of fathers have never been with anyone but thier wives...
kinda same thing as...multiple marriage.
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People who call marrying women need not equae this with Ayashi at all.
Ayashi would be if multiple women are used as toys without even promising them a marriage. All the so called feminists are happy with these situations I wonder why?
Also, the perect justice does not exist even in non-marital relations like parents dealing with their children.
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The way I see it, the ayat is referring to emotional justice and then suggesting that at least in day to day activities be fair and spend equal time with them.
Verse 4:3 puts a condition on polygamy. And that's ignoring the fact that it's referring to widows and orphans in context. Still the condition is clear that if you cannot treat each wife justly, you should only marry one. In verse 4:129 Allah SWT tells men they cannot treat multiple wives justly. Therefore they are incapable of fulfilling the condition that allows for polygamy.
It's very clear and simple. In fact, Allah has explained to us the reason to avoid polygamy. It reminds me of the rule against consuming intoxicants. Initially we were forbidden from coming to prayers drunk and then told to avoid intoxication completely.
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TLK....you said "Please explain how will you support the 5th poor widow after you run out of your 4 nikah limit? "
can you please explain how you will control your excessive desires for women after you run out of your 4 nikah limit?
LOL, they can divorce the first 4 when they get fed up and marry another set of 4, then another, then another...eventually one day will come when it'll be over. Funny thing is that there are women who don't mind being the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, etc etc.... so I guess what looks weird to you and me is perfectly OK for others.
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Sahar:I think you skipped my post above when I explained the two verses. :)
Allah is not asking men to be perfectly just in all matters.
Even if this logic is taken as true then even one marriage should not occur since many men cannot make even one wife happy all the time!
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Verse 4:3 puts a condition on polygamy. And that's ignoring the fact that it's referring to widows and orphans in context. Still the condition is clear that if you cannot treat each wife justly, you should only marry one. In verse 4:129 Allah SWT tells men they cannot treat multiple wives justly. Therefore they are incapable of fulfilling the condition that allows for polygamy.
It's very clear and simple.** In fact, Allah has explained to us the reason to avoid polygamy**. It reminds me of the rule against consuming intoxicants. Initially we were forbidden from coming to prayers drunk and then told to avoid intoxication completely.
I agree that it may be, like Talaq which is halal but not appreciated, but still it is allowed and its not a sin on its own. if you don take care of all your wives equally then that is sin.
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-Do not forget the Prophets and Pious rpedeccersors did not either always refrain from 'ayashi'. The like of H.Ali had a slave girl- who he did 'ayashi' with inspite being married and h.fatima detesting it,and even other sahabies agitated by it.
now I've never heard or read this but what is wrong is wrong. doesn't matter if Hazrat Ali did or whoever.
and that is another thing I've never been able to make sense of - being able to have sex with your slaves. firstly, I can't make sense of why any religion would not outright ban human slavery. secondly, when religion is supposed to be all about halalifying your relationship, being loyal to your partner, not having extramarital sex, etc, how can having sex with your slave be okay?
[quote]
And lets say a lady was married for 'ayaashi'. Provinding she and others are still looked after well, it is still a good deed for the man for taking the responsibilty of and giving security to a women.
So while a man condemned for being an ayaash-well he still may be earning swaab- as he still took some poor girl off the road.
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you don't need to marry women to take care of them. help them as human beings.
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If you dont like or prefer it just say it.
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I believe I did that earlier in this thread... which is why I got your ESL lecture.
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Diwana, perfectly reminded intution about the that verse to Sahar. Sahar please read and comprehend fully.
Allah is not forbidding taking up of 4 wives. He is just warning of the due responsibility and accountibility if you are.
Most men are cleary familiar with the responsibilty, hence the absence of polygamy in the present day.
And Diwana- put them at peace for once mate. Yes, new marriage in addition to a extra and equivalent responsibilty is religiliously sanctioned ayyashi. Read my earlier post, how and why.
To Samb:
Its true. This is a hadith from Bukhari. I do not quote fiction, as I know i would be accountable.
I do not rember precisly which section. I can look it up if anybody is needs to see it.
Not only this-But H.Fatima also angrily returned to her 'maikka' on one occasion seeing the presence of slave girl with him-to which a problem arised ion the Priophets (pbuh) house, on which a well-knwown hadith emitted; ' whoever angers fatima, angers me'.
To your second pragraph Samb. Yes you can help them with money or help them find a ristha. But why do people not get thier head round- that extra marriage is also ISLAMICALLY a medium for extra s.xual gratification.
And practically, dont blame me, by the law of nature, women always have been and are in greater ratio in world population than men.
So realistically- worst case scenario- while a mans part purpose of another marriage may be for sex/additonal partner/attention/love, it irrespectivly, aid to remedy the global problem of the excess women that cant find marriage partners.
And some women, are ok with being a second or thierd or so wife.
NOW- I or anyone here did not always create women in abundance.
I think enough explnation has being given.
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In conclusion, does this mean that in Islam a womans value is nothing but of a toy to be used by men?
As a woman's feelings are not taken into account at all, the simple answer to everything is divorce.
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I love how women are reffered to as if they are just tools. "marry three, four but treat them equally"
How do you define what is equal and fair treatment? Every woman is different, her needs and requirements are different. Taking care of each ones demands/needs is fair and equal or giving all the same level of attention and care is fair treatment? Where do we draw the line?
Can someone answer my question here.
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Nutwer....there are NOT more women in the world....please get your facts right rather than just listening to what so-called "alims" etc say...
The population of men and women in the world is equal.......there are NOT 4 times more women in the world than men.....look around you in whichever country you go to and you will see what i mean.....otherwise do some research and you'll see that world population of men and women is equal.....although in some countries the population of men is MORE than women....but generally speaking of the WORLD population....men and women are equal.........only after a war does the ratio change.....
Re: Men who are not against polygamy [merged]
Sahar:I think you skipped my post above when I explained the two verses. :)
Allah is not asking men to be perfectly just in all matters.
Even if this logic is taken as true then even one marriage should not occur since many men cannot make even one wife happy all the time!
Diwana, perfectly reminded intution about the that verse to Sahar. Sahar please read and comprehend fully. Allah is not forbidding taking up of 4 wives. He is just warning of the due responsibility and accountibility if you are. Most men are cleary familiar with the responsibilty, hence the
Please read below:
Verse 4:3 puts a condition on polygamy. And that's ignoring the fact that it's referring to widows and orphans in context. Still the condition is clear that if you cannot treat each wife justly, you should only marry one. In verse 4:129 Allah SWT tells men they cannot treat multiple wives justly. Therefore they are incapable of fulfilling the condition that allows for polygamy.
It's very clear and simple. In fact, Allah has explained to us the reason to avoid polygamy. It reminds me of the rule against consuming intoxicants. Initially we were forbidden from coming to prayers drunk and then told to avoid intoxication completely.
I agree that it may be, like Talaq which is halal but not appreciated, but still it is allowed and its not a sin on its own. if you don take care of all your wives equally then that is sin.
No, because talaq is allowed, tho frowned upon. The Quran clearly states that if you cannot fulfill the condition, you cannot enter into a polygamous relationship. It even goes so far as to state that you CANNOT fulfill that condition. Human males are incapable of it. But they are capable of incredible hubris and think they know better than the word of God, and therefore they continue in these polygamous marriages, despite Allah SWT's explanation against them.
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^ Sura-e-Nisa completed its revelation in 5 A.H. Prophet was still alive for another 8 years or so. Are you telling me that Prophet and all the sahabas kept disobeying Quran's order even when Polygamy became unlawful in islam?
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Please read below:
No, because talaq is allowed, tho frowned upon. The Quran clearly states that if you cannot fulfill the condition, you cannot enter into a polygamous relationship. It even goes so far as to state that you CANNOT fulfill that condition. Human males are incapable of it. But they are capable of incredible hubris and think they know better than the word of God, and therefore they continue in these polygamous marriages, despite Allah SWT's explanation against them.
Firstly, I wish, really really wish that what you are saying was true and that polygamy was not a part of Islam.
But it is. I think what most of us are trying to do is to get an explanation which satisfies our mind. In this case, Islam is your comfort zone but polygamy is out of that zone, so you are trying to get to a sort of middle ground.
If polygamy was not allowed, then the prophet would have stopped the sahabies from doing it. We can say that the prophet was a man above all. But what about the sahabies? Do you think there has been no man from any time period of comparable caliber? I don't think so. They were humans too and they made mistakes too. They were not always just.
In the end, Islam is a patriachial religion in which, as God says, men have a degree over women. They have more rights and they have more privileges.
Other than that, there is no reason why God would allow something and yet disallow it. If polygamy is not in the religion, why wouldn't He have just stated that? He recommends one wife but gives the allowance of more than one.
More over, if multiple wives were not allowed, what is the rationale for allowing slave girls? It doesn't make sense.
God saying 'I know you will not be able to be just' is similar to God saying, 'I know your future.' And yet, in both cases, we have the freedom to make choices. In the former, the choice of having more than one wife.
And like someone said above, when God tells men that they won't be able to be just, I think it refers to their emotional inclination/ love. But they have to be just in providing resources etc. to their wives and families.
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^ Exactly.
Its the unpalatable truth.
If more than one wife was extremly dicourage because Allah said you cannot do justice. Then howcomes in the prophets time (saw), sahabies were having poly-marriages...howcomes the prophet advised to/in certain cases...
did the prophet forget about this verse (nz). Was he not out , throuhg himself and his shabies to set us an example. Woud her ever advice or approve peoples actions if they were improper.
Yes what about the slave girls? That is an bigger case of 'ayaashi' or abuse, because these girls have no rigths.
Oh YES, vice versa theres no such thing. I mean that, ladies are not allowed slave men...
Would the feminists care to comment?
Whos making thse rules/cultures/actvities , is it not God instead of men?
certainly women or nobody should be treated as objects. I do not think they should.
Its not me providing these concessions.
Its not me providing 70 hoories in heaven.
Its not me who slept with slave women, generating complaints to the Prophet
Its not me passing these laws.
I wouldnt think women are to be treated as objects. But a good part of thier role seems to be entail a provision for men.
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Please read below:
No, because talaq is allowed, tho frowned upon. The Quran clearly states that if you cannot fulfill the condition, you cannot enter into a polygamous relationship. It even goes so far as to state that you CANNOT fulfill that condition. Human males are incapable of it. But they are capable of incredible hubris and think they know better than the word of God, and therefore they continue in these polygamous marriages, despite Allah SWT's explanation against them.
I am sorry but it is very dffcult to explain further to you, since instead of reading the verses word by word and side by side and trying to get the meaning you keep jumping to your own conclusion.
Moreover, there is no comparison that can be made between talaq scenario/intoxicants and polygamy.
Nutwer made two comments which still need correction.
1- Religiously sanctioned Ayashi, is not correct term. If that is true then those who say marriage is form of legalized prostitution will also be correct.
We just need to separate ayashi from obtaining sex and companionship through legit means.
Please remember, sex is not prohbited in Islam and as it is not a sinful act. Ayashi (being a player) is not allowed in Islam.
2- "Slaves had no rights". .......Not true.
Slaves were not even supposed to be called slaves and many many examples can be cited where rights of slaves were sanctioned and even marrying them was advised. Men or women.
If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess: And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another: Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable. – [Quran 4:25]
Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe: A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe: A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the Fire. But Allah beckons by His Grace to the Garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His Signs clear to mankind: That they may celebrate His praise. – [Quran 2:221]
The thread is not about slaves so lets put this to rest for now. It was good trolling move.
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Diwana- I just put sex as 'ayyashi' to simplify it for some. Ok a beter simple term could have been 'additional enjoyment'.
Although- yes do not want to go off track-but I assert slaves islamically had no rights.
The prophet (pbuh) did advise, such as in his final sermon, that we should be kind to our slaves, so as not to beat them or hurt them.
They never had formal rights that they could enforce. I belive thats is the dictionary meaning of 'slave', and it is also evident by the fact they were obligated to provide sexual relations to thier master.
I dont think the slave topic should be bought into debate. I merely quoted it to illustrate another example of Islams legalised additional sex facilities.. ( for men), to help convey our notion show additional wives allowwance is not confined to the funtion of charity.
Its clearly also for sex/frindship.
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Re: Men who are not against polygamy [merged]
Diwana- I just put sex as 'ayyashi' to simplify it for some. Ok a beter simple term could have been 'additional enjoyment'.
Although- yes do not want to go off track-but *I assert slaves islamically had no rights. **The prophet (pbuh) did advise, such as in his final sermon, that we should be kind to our slaves, so as not to beat them or hurt them. They never had formal rights that they could enforce. I belive thats is the dictionary meaning of 'slave', and **it is also evident by the fact they were obligated to provide sexual relations to thier master. * I dont think the slave topic should be bought into debate. I merely quoted it to illustrate another example of Islams legalised additional sex facilities.. ( for men), to help convey our notion show additional wives allowwance is not confined to the funtion of charity. Its clearly also for sex/frindship.
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You made points which are incorrect again my friend. Not going to discuss further here.