Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation
Oh is that what they tell you… 
Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation
No this is what the Koran and the Sunnah and Hadith tell me. I suggest you read the Hadith and then talk about who is or isnt Islamic.
Thanks for completely ignoring the rest of the post, you truly are a credit to intelligent Muslims everywhere.
<<<<
Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation
oh please come out of this self-hating-syndrome, this “ehsas-e-kamtari” and learn to take pride in who you are… stop complaining, and start working…
Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation
Instead of screaming like an animal, try to wrap your mind around this My point is simple. Just because the majority holds a certain opinion, does NOT mean that that opinion is correct.
If the validity of an argument is based solely on the number of people who believe that argument to be true, then by that same logic, since most of the world is non Muslim, then would you say that Islam is somehow invalidated since the majority of the world is non Muslim?
And whther you like it or not, if your populas is misinformed or completely uninformed, you can not rely on them to make informed decisions. They can certainly make decisions, they just cant make the right ones. That is again, why education is so important in a modern democracy. You cant make a just society when the majority of your citizens are dafur.
I do not deny your statement holds validity. However you use that as a premise to establish an aristocratic system like in France where the educated elite decide for the majority. Then you guise that as democracy. That by no means is democracy. That is an oligarchy. In a democracy everybody has equal say in that way the country functions. You disagree with that because the populace is uneducated. The saviour mentality has long been tried and failed over the course of history. But then again most who espouse such ideals rarely seem themselves as the rule. Instead they believe themselves to be the exception.
At the end of the day, regardless of the education level of the people, democracy is a system which does not allow a small elite to decide for everybody else.
Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation
oh please come out of this self-hating-syndrome, this "ehsas-e-kamtari" and learn to take pride in who you are... stop complaining, and start working...
Are you slow Aceones?
I ask a simple question, what part of your so called Islamic Republic is actually Islamic? Can you answer that?
Are you even capable of an actual debate?
Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation
I do not deny your statement holds validity. However you use that as a premise to establish an aristocratic system like in France where the educated elite decide for the majority. Then you guise that as democracy. That by no means is democracy. That is an oligarchy. In a democracy everybody has equal say in that way the country functions. You disagree with that because the populace is uneducated. The saviour mentality has long been tried and failed over the course of history. But then again most who espouse such ideals rarely seem themselves as the rule. Instead they believe themselves to be the exception.
At the end of the day, regardless of the education level of the people, democracy is a system which does not allow a small elite to decide for everybody else.
The point stands. Just because the majority believes something is true, doesnt make it so.
Hence, a referendum in which Pakistanis say they want a theocracy, is by no means a validation of such a system.
It only means that the majority of people are stupid.
Let the people choose their leaders and the system of governance that suits them, but dont automatically assume that just because they are the majority, that they are right.
I refer to the wisdom of the countries founder, who clearly stated that Pakistan is not a theocracy. The words of a genuinely wise and learned man like Jinnah, are far worthier of respect then the collective stupidity of Millions of uneducated and brainwashed masses.
Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation
oh please come out of this self-hating-syndrome, this "ehsas-e-kamtari" and learn to take pride in who you are... stop complaining, and start working...
I dont think Med11 is complaining or is self hating. He is just saying things as they are, not as what people want to hear.
Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation
The point stands. Just because the majority believes something is true, doesnt make it so.
Hence, a referendum in which Pakistanis say they want a theocracy, is by no means a validation of such a system.
It only means that the majority of people are stupid. Let the people choose their leaders and the system of governance that suits them, but dont automatically assume that just because they are the majority, that they are right.
I refer to the wisdom of the countries founder, who clearly stated that Pakistan is not a theocracy. The words of a genuinely wise and learned man like Jinnah, are far worthier of respect then the collective stupidity of Millions of uneducated and brainwashed masses.
Doesn't matter if it is right or not. Doesn't matter if it is true or not. It is democracy. And nobody has the right to govern the people of a nation by being part of a small exclusive elite.
Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation
Doesn't matter if it is right or not. Doesn't matter if it is true or not. It is democracy. And nobody has the right to govern the people of a nation by being part of a small exclusive elite.
lol.. Doesn't matter!?!?!? Have you watched the news lately? If this was a debate about who makes the best briyani, or some other nonsense, then I would agree with you. But when you are talking about the well being of an entire nation, then the right decisions mean a great deal.
You might be content to leave the future of your country in the hands of jahils, but the rest of us who actually care about the country want to see it prosper.
You can rely on democracy if your populous is informed. Pakistanis are uninformed.
Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation
Doesn't matter if it is right or not. Doesn't matter if it is true or not. It is democracy. And nobody has the right to govern the people of a nation by being part of a small exclusive elite.
The point that you missed was that Democracy requires an informed and educated public. It really is a prerequisite.
At the very least, the people need to be allowed to be informed. They must understand the issues they are being asked to decide on. The problem in Pakistan is that people are not educated, they dont really understand the issues, and those is a position to explain things arent able to do so. Trying to sell secularism to Pakistanis is complicated by the fact that Secularism has been demonized to such an extent that no one could give an accurate portrayal of secularism without being vilified and attacked.
So allowing a referendum in a country like Pakistan on secularism vs theocracy would be futile and would infact probably end up being undemocratic, because the debate would be completely one sided, without the public being allowed to understand both positions.
Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation
And I already covered it. The US democracy that is literally the oldest did not have an informed and educated public when it started out. Most by far could not read or write. They were all religiously minded and more importantly were poor. Yet democracy worked for them for some reason. And that was over 250 years ago. Yet you state the opposite.
Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation
And I already covered it. The US democracy that is literally the oldest did not have an informed and educated public when it started out. Most by far could not read or write. They were all religiously minded and more importantly were poor. Yet democracy worked for them for some reason. And that was over 250 years ago. Yet you state the opposite.
The framers of the US Constitution were composed of only a hand full of men. They framed it according to what they felt was best for the country, and people praise their wisdom to this day.
Again...
The constitution on which the US democracy is based, was not created through constant referendums, it was created through the collective wisdom of a few.
Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation
And I already covered it. The US democracy that is literally the oldest did not have an informed and educated public when it started out. Most by far could not read or write. They were all religiously minded and more importantly were poor. Yet democracy worked for them for some reason. And that was over 250 years ago. Yet you state the opposite.
Democracy works in America because its based on principles established by a small number of exceptionally intelligent and wise individuals. The emphasis here is on the SMALL NUMBER of individuals, that were responsible for framing the constitution.
Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation
I am sorry but you are getting things confused. A constitution does not equal democracy. Democracy is the right for an individual to vote on how he or she wishes to do so. That was evident in the US regardless of who framed the constitution. The people voted for their parliament. They voted for their President. They voted for their leaders. Their education background did not matter at any point.
Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation
Remember it was not Islamic Republic of Pakistan
Its actual name was
God Gifted State of Pakistan
مملکت خداداد پاکستان
Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation
I am sorry but you are getting things confused. A constitution does not equal democracy. Democracy is the right for an individual to vote on how he or she wishes to do so. That was evident in the US regardless of who framed the constitution. The people voted for their parliament. They voted for their President. They voted for their leaders. Their education background did not matter at any point.
Im sorry then, but issues like how a govt should function and what form that govt should take is also not decided by referandum. If you are going to cite the US as an example, then you should know that the issues of religion and state in US were not decided through voting, but through the formulation of a constitution by a select few.
So if we are going to look to the US as an example, then the best thing to do would be to find genuine statesmen within Pakistan, and have them formulate a new Constitution in line with what Jinnah envisioned for the country, not through some referendum.
Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation
Again you basically stating a small elite group should decide what is best for the people. The difference between the US example and yours, is that the founding fathers were "men of the street". They were actively taking part in all fabrics of life. Not everybody was an educated land owner or a business man. Most where simple men with simple lives and means of livelihoods.
Also to point out North Korea has a constitution. So does Syria, Zimbabwe, Sudan and the DRC. How many of those do you consider democracies? Because they are all run by a small group of elite educated people who decide what is best for the country.
Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation
Again you basically stating a small elite group should decide what is best for the people. The difference between the US example and yours, is that the founding fathers were "men of the street". They were actively taking part in all fabrics of life. Not everybody was an educated land owner or a business man. Most where simple men with simple lives and means of livelihoods.
Also to point out North Korea has a constitution. So does Syria, Zimbabwe, Sudan and the DRC. How many of those do you consider democracies? Because they are all run by a small group of elite educated people who decide what is best for the country.
You yourself cited the United States. In the United States, the issue of a separation of church and state was decided by a small elite group, not by a referendum or any sort of vote.
The founding fathers were wealthy businessmen, and exceptionally well versed in state craft. They were by no means common men of the street. They were chosen because they were so accomplished.
And like I said, if need be, we can do the same thing. Lets find accomplished people from among the common man on the street. Let them formulate a constitution just as the founding fathers of US did.
You cited the US, and so thats why I referenced the US. The US system of governance, as enshrined in the Constitution, and which has served them so well for over 200 years now, was thanks to the wisdom of a select few, not a referendum. Hence we in Pakistan dont need a referendum to decide the countries system. We have Jinnah to guide us just as the founding fathers of the US guided the American State. Unfortunately, Jinnah could never draft a Constitution or take part in it. So we are left with hoping someone comes along who shares his wisdom and can impart it on the rest of us.
Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation
No they weren’t all wealthy. Most of the wealthy sided with the British. Educated yes. But that is irrelevant. We are not discussing constitution making. We are discussing democracy in the Pakistan and using the US as a case study.
And you are changing your statement again. Your original posts had nothing to do with a constitution.
I will reiterate what I have consistently stated a select few do not have the right to rule over the majority. The US government is a case in that example. The average uneducated man was allocated an equal vote with that of a rich educated man.
Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation
This is really getting redundant Mr Arch Angel. The bottom line is that Americas democracy was setup by a select few EDUCATED, people... Its was not setup through a referendum. If it worked in America, then it can work in Pakistan.
At the end of the day, we cant expect the majority of Pakistanis to make the right decision. At the very least, Pakistan needs to establish a new system, in line with the secular vision of Jinnah. I don't expect the so called majority opinion will support this, but as we concluded, the majority doesn't necessarily know whats best.