Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation

This is WHY an education is so important to a democracy. For a democracy to function, you have to have informed and educated citizens.

Uneducated and brainwashed people who have no understanding of history or politics, and are by definition, expected to make mistakes. Elite or not, an education certainly does give you an advantage in terms of deciding what is right or wrong.
For example, uneducated people have no understanding of how dangerous it is to mix religion and politics, because they dont have the slightest clue as to how such a setup has fared in the past, or how it is faring in the society they live in.

The stupidity here is being expressed by you...

If you dont understand basic points regarding historical FACT, then im sorry, you just need to go back to school.

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Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation

I think thats a misunderstanding. You can have a system thats inspired by the teaching of Islam, teachings of justice, equality, fraternity etc etc, that however does not mean Jinnah wanted an Islamic republic.

He was a lot more firm in his pronouncement that Pakistan is NOT an Islamic republic or theocracy or anything like that.

It takes an extraordinary amount of mental gymnastics to distort statements like the following :

Religion should not be allowed to come into Politics….Religion is merely a matter between man and God”. [Jinnah, Address to the Central Legislative Assembly, 7 February 1935]

” But make no mistake : Pakistan is NOT a theocracy or anything like it.” Jinnah, Message to the people of Australia, 19 February 1948 ]

^ Can it get any more clearer?!?!

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Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation

Its called the Islamic Republic, because those who took the mantle following the death of Jinnah intentionally distorted historical facts for the sake of political expediency. The Islamic name is a lie. A title Pakistan was never meant to have.

No one is trying to revise history, we are simply correcting the inaccuracies of the historical narrative as has been presented to us.

If you truly believe in Pakistan, then you should also support the vision of her founder. And her founder did not want an “Islamic Republic.”

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Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation

LOL.. Indian inspired! How about ispired by common sense.

Im of the oppinion that those calling for secularism and a seperation of politics and religion in Pakistan are the most Muslim of all.

Politics is a dirty business, and relgion should never be mixed in with it.

The role of the govt is clear cut. Make sure your people are educated, defense, and making sure we have the basic needs met (None of which the Pak govt is successful at), not wasting time and resources on who is practicing what religion and how.

The whole reason the govt trumpets it pseudo Islamic credentials is to distract simple minded people from the the fact that the govt has failed so miserably at the above responisbilites.

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Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation

could not agree more with this statement of yours. If someone drinks or gambles or does n't pray or fast, as long as he's a peaceful and law abiding citizen and not harming or inciting anyone, the governement or state has no business telling them what they should and should n't be doing. Religion is a scared and private matter between each individual and God

I am ofcourse not advocating that one should start drinking and gambling. As muslims we all know what our duties (to both God and mankind) are. Sometimes a bit of commonsense is all that is needed

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Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation

Yeah.. Sad irony is that we probably have more drug addicts and drunks today, then we ever had before the suddenly decided Pakistan needed to be more "Islamic," whatever that means.

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Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation

Did Jinnah want a state ruled by Mullahs/clerics? No. Did Jinnah declare pakistan secular, and rule out the application of Shariat/Islamic Law/Muslim Personal law? NO.

Does it really matter what Jinnah declared? No. As far as most of the people who bought into the idea of Pakistan were concerned, Pakistan was to be characteristically Islamic. The notion of a "secular" muslim is a very modern one, and had no recognition back then. A secular muslim polity is equally absurd to suggest. For all intents and purposes, at that point in time, one was a muslim if and only if they practiced Islam.

What may well have happened was Jinnah pandered to Islamic sentiment to win over the idea of Pakistan. But then, that's not a very flattering view of the principled leader most contemporary secularists have in mind.

Quotes from Jinnah are ambiguous. There is definitely an appeal to Islam, the ideals and principles. Yet, he ruled out a cleric-lead regime (perhaps known to him, alien to Islam anyway). And no, these are not identical in any way shape or form to the christian-heritage often sited by conservative european politicians. TNT was based on the very notion that the culture and religion of Islam itself was under threat within the Indian context. Islam in danger WAS a slogan, and so it follows that Pakistan was meant to be a safe haven for those who wanted to practice Islam, it's legal traditions, customs, rituals, etc.

[quote]

We are a nation with our own distinctive culture and civilization, language and literature, art and architecture, names and nomenclature, sense of values and proportion, legal laws and moral codes, customs and calendar, history and traditions, aptitudes and ambitions, in short, we have our own distinctive outlook on life and of life. By all cannons of international law we are a nation
[/quote]

This quote is a LONG way from religion as a mere personal matter...here, it is one part of our communal essence, and part and parcel of the reason d'etre of Pakistan.

Given the audience for such statements, it defies belief that the common Muslim buying into the notion of Pakistan had some shared understanding of a secular polity where Shariah would simply be outlawed and supplanted by a secular code. If Pakistanis re-invent Pakistan in what was originally understood, no fault can be put on them. Jinnah was simply too ambiguous....

Now, honestly...had Jinnah pulled an Attaturk (whom he knew very well), do any of the secularists here honestly think Pakistan would have been a reality?

The bottom line is, it doesn't matter what Jinnah wanted. The truth is perhaps much to painful for the idealistic youth on either end of the spectrum to handle. Oh, but it should be said anyway: Jinnah didn't want independence. He at best wanted to be the Queen's representative of an autonomous Pakistan within the British Empire. But then WWII happened, and Jinnah got a nation he didn't exactly ask for...

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Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation

Religion cannot be separated from politics, or actually anything that has to do something with human life...

asking for separating religion from politics is equal to saying "we accept this part of religion, but we don't accept that part" which is definitely not "the most Muslim of all" as you put it. Harsh it may sound, but true it is.

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Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation

Yes everybody who voted in US elections back in the 1700s was an educated man with a college degree? None of them were simple farmers who couldn't even read or religious individuals who came to the US for religious freedom. Nope. They were all Harvard graduates. History has effectively proven that a small elite educated or wealthy will abuse their powers and not support democratic values. That is the essence of the french revolution and the reason why democracy requires an equal vote per man or woman.

Democracy does not mean that a limited small elite decides for the rest of the people. That my dear friend is an oligarchy.

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Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation

Well, the western nations have all separated religion from politics, and their all light years ahead of Pakistan. You can take a country like Turkey, wich is secular to a fault, and comparatively speaking they are also much much better off.

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Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation

But you ignore places like Malaysia which are not secular yet seem to be progressing as well?

Have patience, just because you see secular western countries advancing now doesn't mean it's to do with seperation of state and religion, their power is more to do with how many people they can murder in a limited time frame.

Don't forget the Islamic Empires, which were most definitely NOT secular...

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Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation

Instead of screaming like an animal, try to wrap your mind around this
My point is simple. Just because the majority holds a certain opinion, does NOT mean that that opinion is correct.

If the validity of an argument is based solely on the number of people who believe that argument to be true, then by that same logic, since most of the world is non Muslim, then would you say that Islam is somehow invalidated since the majority of the world is non Muslim?

And whther you like it or not, if your populas is misinformed or completely uninformed, you can not rely on them to make informed decisions. They can certainly make decisions, they just cant make the right ones.
That is again, why education is so important in a modern democracy. You cant make a just society when the majority of your citizens are dafur.

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Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation

Hardly. I have spoken to Malaysian Hindus for example, and they aren't exactly in love with their Muslim neighbors. Its not quite the most progressive society, all though granted it certainly isnt as backwards as Pakistan.

That aside. I dont deny that a society can do relatively ok under an Islamic regime. I suppose you cant paint all countries with the same brush, because every country has its own dynamic. It certainly hasn't worked in Pakistan. I mean this pseudo Islamic label has done absolutely no good for Pakistan what so ever. In fact, it has been a hindrance as we not only lack a cohesive national identity, but have really painted an ugly picture of Islam for the world to see. At the end of the day, I think that this excessive govt involvement in religious matters is a waste of time and energy, and simply creates an air of intolerance and discrimination in society.

Just the other day with the arrest of the doctor in Sindh for alleged blasphemy. I mean what an enormous waste of time, and resources. With all that's going on in the country, the Police are sent to arrest someone for supposed blasphemy...

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Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation

Malaysia is an economically progressive country, what definition are you using for progressive cause I can tell you the Turks have a little Kuridish itch that won't go away...

Pakistan is another entity, it's problems are not religious but social. The vast majority of the population is uneducated, and easily swayed by whoever comes to them with a massive grey daari, infact having a proper government who actually practice Islam and are well versed in the Qur'an would be a massive boost to the country. Instead you have Zardari and his ilk... the population is caught between a corrupt government who screw them over and the weird Talibani/CIA influence coming from Afghanistan what do you expect, peace and harmony?

Then you have the massive foreign interference in the country, Pakistan is no longer sovereign no matter what the UN/US blah blah say, it's owned by the US metaphorically and literally. Pakistan's problems won't go away until you oust Zardari, and take away US occupation in the middle east, which right now is something very unlikely to happen in the near future!

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Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation

Islam in danger WAS a slogan?? Even after so many years after creation of Pakistan, every 2nd Pakistani is still shouting and screaming "Islam is in danger". "Islam is in danger" was a fashion/political statement in 20th century even now in 21st century is still a fashion statement. Every 2nd person uses this statement to push his own agenda.

Islam Khatre mein hai, despite being fastest growing religion. Biggest Khatra to Islam is from Muslims who keep on repeating this like a parrot.

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Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation

And? The fact is, this is the rehtoric used to invoke the passion of Indian Muslims, and had a large part in the creation of Pakistan.

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Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation

either you take "west" as your ultimate role model, and pick up their secular line, or you take the guidance from the religion. both don't go together hand in hand.

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Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation

First of all, my above statement was in direct reply to another poster who claimed that religion and politics can not be separated, which to me implies that a country that does not endorse and official religion cannot function. Which of course is nonsense.
Even the Saudis are economically progressive, but its hardly a country we would emulate. By progress I not only mean economic, but also social and political.
The Turks I can tell you dont have a extremism problem either, nor are they confused as to who they are and what they represent. The issue of the kurds will more then likely be resolved one way or the other, especially since they have been reforming themselves for entry into the EU.

The problems of Pakistan are complex. This excessive religious fervor is just part of the problem. Its a symptom and a cause. I would argue that one of the reasons why this country has been unable to create an equitable social and economic system is because of a lack of a national identity. This pseudo Islamic facade was hoisted on the country by those who had no idea how to unify the people in any other way. They feared allowing the people to express their ethnic identity, and so created this hodgepodge of a nation with a very flimsy raison d'etre... Islam. And then to make things worse, they reinforced the pseudo Islamic lie by creating discriminatory laws to disenfranchise the minorities even further while appeasing the religious fanatics. You cant have economic progress in country where there is no social cohesion, and rampant inequality. This so called "Islamic" system has not produced results, and has infact created more confusion, discrimination and extremism, all of which are draining the country not just politically but also economically.

Sure a system that were perfectly Islamic would be great. But lets not be Naive here, that will never happen. Instead of trying to be more Islamic, why not just be practical and pragmatic. Instead of obsessing over who beard is longer, or who is or isn't a Muslims, or who is or isn't Blaspheming, why not just do the right thing? Is it so much to ask of the govt to just provide education and healthcare? Is it to much to ask to have social welfare? Can we do these things without calling ourselves and Islamic republic? Why do we need this hollow title?

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Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation

The west is more Islamic then most Islamic countries.

Example. When a sick man arrives at the ER in America, he is by LAW entitled to being treated regardless of hIS economic, financial or social status.
What could be more Islamic then this?

Example: All buildings, especially govt buildings, must be accessible to the handicapped. They must have a ramp or elevator so that people in wheel chairs can get access.
Whats more Islamic then this?

Example: There are programs for low income families with newborns, allowing them free food for their babies.
People who are unemployed can apply for unemployment insurance so they dont starve during hard times…

Example: Recently a young girl from Afghanistan was brought to the US for surgery to repair her nose that was hacked off by her angry inlaws. She paid nothing.
Thats Islam.

In Pakistan the poor are left to starve, the sick are left to die and the handicapped are left to fend for themselves.

There is nothing Islamic about your Islamic republic.

You live in Dubai, yet they treat their fellow Muslims like dogs. You can neither get citizenship or respect unless your white.
Look what Saudis do. Do you recall the girls that were burnt alive in their schools because they dared come out without a Burqa?
Are these examples of Islamic purity your role models.. :rolleyes:
BBC News | MIDDLE EAST | Saudi police 'stopped' fire rescue <<<<< What role models you keep!

No. I want real Islam. Not some hollow facade. Your just obsessed with the name “Islam.” I dont just want Islam in name, I want Islam is substance and in character, not a hollow shell of Islam. The western secular countries are thus far more Islamic then you can ever imagine.

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Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation

Please refer to the response regarding western countries. Sure I dont agree with their foreign policies, but there are many aspects of Western society that are far more just, equitable, and magnanimous then any you will find in the Muslim world. In all honesty, what system is more Islamic, Pakistans where the poor are exploited, or America, where we have programs like social security, and other programs for social welfare? Be honest.