Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation

As you wish Med911. We also concluded already that your view point is not supportive of democratic values or principles. Rather it is supportive of an Oligarchy like that of Egypt or Iran where the people dependent on a elite to function as their saviors.

Oh yes just to clarify the "right decision" is the decision you personally agree with and not based on any general principles which better the country. The "right decision" for you is one that you subjectively support regardless of the facts and the truth.

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Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation

The right decision is what is in line with Jinnahs vision of Pakistan. A Secular Pakistan, Full stop.

But hypothetically speaking. While im fairly certain most Pakistanis are not enlightened enough to support separating Islam from politics, if by some miracle, the results of your referendum supported a secular Pakistan, I suppose you would support that wouldnt you?

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Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation

Absolutely. I for one support and encourage democratic values regardless of the outcome. And no that is not the right decision. The right decision is what each individual believes as his individual right. You can not tell people how to vote or how to think. Whats with liberals in Pakistan acting more like neo-cons or the thought police?

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Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation

Suite yourself. But like I said, how a govt is constituted, has never been decided by a referendum. Even in the example you cited, of the US, the govt itself was setup by a few select individuals. Once the govt is setup, the people vote within the context of what the authors of the system set up. The people did not decide whether the US would be secular or not, or what sort of govt system they would have.

And I dont think I know anymore then the next guy. But all I know is that Pakistans pseudo Islamic system is a failure, and there are multiple examples of successful secular democracies.

By the way, still would like an answer to my question. Dont you think, that with all the US and European countries offer in terms of Social secuity etc, that they are actually closer to the true spirit of Islam then Pakistan?

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Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation

Pakistan Ka matlab kiya? La ilaha illa Allah. Religion is the reason Pakistan was created by Quaid. Religion bonds us despite so many differences we Pakistanis have. The problem in my opinion is that religion is not practiced the way it should be like in Saudi. During the creation, Quaid wanted Azaan to be the guide for the prayers but Pakistanis have become too involved in modernity and things like Bollywood, Mujra, and Cricket are more important than Azaan. Pakistan ka Allah(swt) hi hafiz hai.

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Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation

Med911 you are making claims which are not even in discussion or being disputed. As for the comments you are making vis a vis the creation of the US democracy, you are welcome to believe whatever it is you wish. But state what you have said to any historian on the creation of the American democracy and they would laugh in your face. I will link the Preamble of the US constitution to prove my point:

[quote]
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
[/quote]

It doesn't say We the educated elite, it doesn't say We the secularists. It says We the people of the United States. Its just a shame even after 250 plus years people still try to rewrite history to fit their own personal biases and not reality.

Lastly to answer your question, the answer is No. The spirit of Islam is submitting oneself to the will of Allah. It is not political gerrymandering.

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Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation

So the spirit of Allah means to exploit the poor, and to leave the sick to die? Does the spirit of Islam to you mean to not provide equal opportunity in education, health care, employment? Does submitting oneself to the will of god mean having a society being completely devoid of any responsibility towards other members of the society??

I mean, I know Islam means submitting to the will of god.. But that's a very hallow statement. What does that mean?

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Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation

Med911 you are welcome to define the spirit of Islam as you wish. If you think the spirit of Islam means to exploit the poor, and to leave the sick to die, then you have my pity and sympathy. But not everybody believes in the faith even though they are born into it. The meaning is simple. A Muslim would understand what I mean, to people of faith it hold more meaning than life itself.

But the spirit of Islam has nothing to do with politics like I said earlier. It has everything to do with how you lead your life and the ethics behind your decisions. Your morality if you wish. The Edhi foundation is a brilliant example of one aspect of the spirit of Islam.

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Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation

Dont run from the question mr Archangel. If you have the courage of your conviction then you should answer it honestly. The question was posed to you ( and people who think like you.) So please dont try to dodge it.

Im asking YOU, does Islam teach you to leave the sick and poor to die? Does the spirit of Islam mean you refuse people a chance to have an education? Does Islam mean to exploit the poor? Does Islam mean to ignore the handicapped and elderly?
Because this is what happens in your ISLAMIC Republic of Pakistan every day. Is this what Islam means. Please educate me.

Edhi foundation is great, but are you saying they are Islamic because it was started by Mr Edhi, who just happens to be a Muslim, or because of the good deeds they do?

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Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation

Just because I give an answer you do not like does not mean I am running from the question. That is simply hyperbole.

The answer to your questions is obviously no. But that has nothing to do with the spirit of Islam. That is simply politics. And those issues you have listed also happen in the US and the EU. Sick and the poor die every day in the US and the EU. People are refused an education in France because of the Hijab issue. The poor are exploited by EU and US corporations all the time. The Apple factory in China is such an example. The handicapped and elderly are ignored in the US if they do not have medicare or insurance. Thanks to Obama they actually have the right to insurance now.

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Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation

religion is very important for people, Pakistan should never shed its religious identity but learn to respect other religion!

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Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation

The answer to my question is an obvious no! I would think that a country that does just about everything that the Koran prescribes would be Islamic in nature, while a country that proclaims itself to be Islamic, while doing everything that Islam is opposed to, is not Islamic ... Seems rather obvious to me. I dont understand why this is so difficult for you to grasp.

It is not Politics. Its doing what Islam teaches us. Putting into actual practice the values instilled in Koran and the Hadith.
Now the US system or the European model for that matter may not be perfect, but it certainly is a work in progress.. As oppsed to the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, among other pseudo Islamic nations, where such things are ignored.
I have lived a considerable amount of time in the US, and have been intimately involved with the system here through my profession.
I can guarantee you, that while there are those sad cases of people who slip through the net, there is a net in place. Another words, there are programs in place to help the poor, the sick the elderly. Social Security, Medicaid and Medicare, etc, among many many other laws that are more Islamic then anything I have ever seen in any so called Muslim country.

You know this. We have countless examples of the system working to help people in America and Europe. Countries that are secular and progressive.
Beyond this, a cursory glance at the rights guaranteed to all citizens in the Bill of Rights is eye opening.

Compare this to you Islamic Republic. What programs has this so called Islamic Republic ever introduced that were even remotely Islamic? Yes we banned alcohol, but thats it, and introduced punishments for those we deemed "UnIslamic," but what good has Pakistan done for her citizens?

There isnt even an attempt in your Islamic republic at helping anyone other then the rich.

So why are you so content with have this fascade, this sham of Islam hoisted on this poor country? There are secular countries doing a much better job at doing what the koran teaches, and ironically, Muslims are flocking to them. Yet here you are, claiming that Pakistan is somehow Islamic? In what way!?!?!?

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Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation

Islam is the solution of whole world Promblems thats why Islam is the fastest growing Religion in the west even in Russian that why the have banned making of Mosuqes in different cities and these are reports not by any Muslim Organistaion butt these are Reports of Fox News. CNN, NBC News, BBC, and there top News Papers and current Afairs Magizne and people who think Religion is counterproductive infact there brains have become counter productive thats why they have lost commons sense

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Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation

I have actively noticed that a lot of your comments are based on opinion and not fact. Comments like that there is some form of social safety net in the US even after medicare honestly defy reality. I personally prefer dealing with facts. So lets take things one at a time.

How do you define a country as Islamic? I simply describe it as a nation state which defines its rules and policies vis a vis the nature of Islam and its values. By that standard no European nation is Islamic, considering their crusade to ban the basic freedoms of Muslim women.

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Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation

So your saying that Social security, medicare, medicaid, and all the other countless humanitarian inspired laws in America are a fiction?

Are you kidding me!

I have given you MANY examples of laws which are Islamic in the US... And your telling me these are a lie? Your saying that laws intended to help the poor and sick are NOT Islamic??!?!?!
I define a nation as being Islamic, when its laws are in line with Islamic values. Thats it.

What you describe is a nation that calls itself Islamic, and claims to follow Islam. However, claiming to be Islamic and Muslim is one thing, being Islamic and Muslim is quite another. This is called HYPOCRICY, and Allah SWT despises such Hypocracy.
"Most hateful it is with AllAh that you say that which you do not do.."
"Make not mischief on the earth,' they say: `We are only peacemakers.' Verily, they are the ones who make mischief, but they perceive not"

Another words, Islam means not just saying that you are Muslims, but actually following the teachings of Islam. Whic Pakistan does not do.

Americans however, while they may not be Muslim, they do have many laws that are Islamic. At the very least they try.

Certainly these countries are still progressing. But all you can cite are laws banning the Burqa in Europe, which is itself a controversial issue among many Muslims.
I remind you however, that the Burqa has not been banned in most European countries, and there isnt even an attempt to ban it or any other religous item in the US.
The US, as with most secular nations, certainly allows far more religious freedom then any Muslim country you could name.

Pakistan is a hypocrite nation. Which is probably why it seems to be headed to hell in a hand basket, and secular non Muslim countries are doing so well.

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Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation

By your own definition then Burma and China are also countries of Islamic value. Hell so is Japan. Well by your definition every nation that up holds a few values which are Islamic are in fact Islamic countries. You support the death penalty? An Islamic value, you qualify as an Islamic country. You support the freedom to practice your religion, you must be a Muslim country. You provide a social system which supports the poor and needy, well then you are an Islamic country.

By your definition, every country on the planet is an Islamic country plus half of mars.

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Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation

Well I said such countries are closer to the spirit of Islam then Pakistan, even though they dont claim to be Muslim. And why not. These values, justice, human rights, charity, these things are Islamic. Obviously countries that observe and put into practice such values as espoused by the Koran and Hadith are more Islamic then those that do not.
Ofcourse im not saying that these countries are literally Muslim. My point is to simply show that, that which is most important in Islam, is the values that Islam espouses. These values are more important then whether you call your country an Islamic Republic or a secular republic. Countries that espouse these values in a real substantive way are certainly Islamic in nature.

Ultimately, my point is simply that Pakistan doesnt have to call itself an Islamic Republic to espouse Islamic values, which essentially are universal values. Islam cant be about just how long your beard is, or how loudly you can blare the Azan so as to drown out the next mosque over.

Who are Pakistanis trying to kid? You think Allah SWT is fooled by Pakistans pseudo Islamic guise? Atleast the Americans openly state they are non Muslim even as they practice ISLAMIC values. Why cant Pakistan shed this Hypocracy. If its going to be an inhumane and cruel country, then why not be an honest one atleast. Why suly the good name of Islam by claiming to be Muslim while doing everything oppposite of ISLAM?

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Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation

And no China and Burma are definitely not Islamic. Death penalty is one thing, but there is also such a thing as justice. Another words, people have a right to due process.
Countries that do not allow such basic human rights are obviously going against the spirit of Islam.

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Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation

You do realize you are implying that there is no difference than a secular government in the west and the religious option provided by the Islam right?

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Re: Making sense of Pakistan: Imagining Pakistan sans the religious fixation

I have no problem with a country calling itself Islamic so long as it functions properly, provides for its citizens, and allows equal rights (if thats even possible in a country that represents on one religious denomination).

However, I dont think this is possible. In an ideal world, Islamic countries would be the beackons of the world. Unfortunately, we are dealing with human beings and reality. In reality, countries that take as their identity this religious facade, are prone to being bogged down by petty doctrinal issues. Dogma becomes state policy and everything else is sacrificed. Even if they manage to maintain a degree of good governance, you still have nonsense cropping up every now and then, that should really have nothing to do with govt functioning. Bottom line, humans (and especially not PAKISTANIS) cant be expected to run an Islamic state without getting bogged down in useless details. For example, instead of figuring out how to feed, clothe and educate their people, which are all demands that Islam puts on a proper govt, the Pakistanis are debating whther they should reform a discriminatory law, supposedly meant to prevent people from blaspheming!

My point is simple. The govt should remain focused on good governance, not on how long everyone's beard is. Islam only demands of a govt to be effective. If the system works, then it is Islamic. If it doesn't work, then you can call it whatever you like, but it is in essence, not an Islamic system. Pakistan focuses so much on trying to be Islamic, that it ends up being completely unislamic. Instead of trying to be Islamic, why not just be.