Loopholes in Religion

[MangoMan]

Re: Loopholes in Religion

@Niksik

Excellent thread!
I think that organized religion tries to train our thought process by giving examples. Like the Islamic belief that Allah loves us 70 (not 60 from what I hear) than a mother loves a child.

Sorry, my mistake.

@Niksik

Again, the representation of punishment is to instill fear in us…
Again, all that is meant for us as a guideline to lead somewhat pious lives in the path of Allah so we can eventually go to jannah

These are optimistic interpretations. The best case scenarios, I would say, or giving God the benefit of the doubt. Even if we believe this, does that mean there is no hell, no burning, its all just to instill fear in us and no matter what we do in our lives, good or bad, the result will be the same for all of us…heaven? On the other hand, if we don’t believe this and just focus on his words without interpreting them to our convenience, then he is certainly going to punish and burn in hell the people he claims to have immeasurable love for.

@Niksik

…and on the other hand, we are told that Allah is so merciful that he can forgive ANY sin except “shirk” which means association of other gods with his being.

But if he has not made himself crystal clear like he has made gravity, then it is obvious that some people will get confused and will associate all kinds of things with being him.

@Niksik

I think that the loopholes come from the interpretations we learn from for there are many and some are utterly confusing and questionable.

But the existence of interpretations make me wonder whether religion is not explained well by the creator. The confusion is deliberate on his part? If he wanted, he could have chosen not to leave mankind confused about him.

[Southie]

Re: Loopholes in Religion

The ultimate problem with religion is the logic associated with explaining it -a perfect circle that a guppan can only strive for rotiwise.

[shaasavera]

Re: Loopholes in Religion

@Southie

The ultimate problem with religion is the logic associated with explaining it -a perfect circle that a guppan can only strive for rotiwise.

Some things are hard to explain and sometimes we do not know all the answers yet.

[shaasavera]

Re: Loopholes in Religion

I got sent this fascinating article. I think Southie uncle you and Philosophy will find it interesting. It shows there are actual health benefits to believing in the right sense of the word but not in a dogmatic way. Mindfulness based meditation and involvement in community groups can also have similar effects.
What God does to your brain - Telegraph

[diwana]

Re: Loopholes in Religion

@philosophy

Post here! lets discuss and try to synthesize. (no organic chemistry please )

It could be questions we have…that are answerable…or just things that don’t make sense at all.

Start with:

-Black magic, Evil eye–why is it all hearsay..nothing documented or repeatable or testable…or really even observable? how do people so adamantly believe in it then.

Disclaimer: intent is not to offend…*

First: loopholes are in the minds of irreligious people, not in religion.

Now, please clarify: Are you saying anything not documented, repeatable, testable or really even observable is just hearsay and people should not believe them adamantly?

Yes or no answer please.

[Monk]

Re: Loopholes in Religion

mango brother:

Word “worship” is causing little issues here. Common understanding of worship is somewhat
sitting and doing ibadat. Clearly quran’s meaning of worship is much broader… it expand over all aspects of life. Suppose if God wanted to us NOT leave* ja-namaz* he WONT say… give zakat because in order to pay zakat you have to be working and earning money.
So worship is not to be taken in that sense where you DON’T leave the prayer rug.
Here is list God wants us to do:

Do’s:
True Believers establish Prayers to Allah. (2:43, 5:55, 74:39-48, 77:48,)
Be kind to parents, relatives, wayfarers, the needy, orphans (89:17-20, 93:9-11, 107:1-3)
Take care of the Orphans.( 4:3, 6:152)
Say good things to people (4:5, 4:8-9)
Be good to prisoners of war.( 2:85)
Forgive the faults of others. (24:22, 45:14)
Establish regular prayers and pay Zakat (charity). (24:56, 31:4, 70:22-25, 75:31)
Wear pious clothes when you go to the Mosque. (7:31)
Provide evidence and truth. Produce your proof if you are honest. (2:111, 21:24, 27:64, 28:75)
Give thanks to Allah for everything.( 2:172)
For the love of Allah, give help (financial) to kinsfolk, needy (17:26, 90:11-17)
Free slaves (90:11-17)
Punish those who hurt you in equal amount. Punish as you were punished. But if you show patience it’ll be better for you. If you forgive then it is better (6:126, 22:60, 42:40-43)
Be in peace (2:208, 8:61)
Remind the Believers to do Good. (11:114, 51:55)
It is better if you give your charity in secret to the poor (2:271)
Speaking good and offering forgiveness is better than giving charity and hurt or annoy people with it. (2:263-265, 3:134)
Do Good and ask for no Reward (38:86, 42:23)
Fulfil your oaths, and promises, and be trust worthy to all people.( 2:270, 3:76, 76:7-10)
Be a straight and upright believer. (46:13)
Pay back your debt, and give back what you held for others. (2:283)
Be patient and put your full Trust and Faith in Allah all the Prophets did (38:17, 38:41-44, 74:7)
If you forget, then mention the Name of Allah Almighty. (18:24)
Seek knowledge and education (39:9)
Lower your tone when you speak (31:19)
Be humble (26:215)
When you recite the Holy Quran seek refuge from the cursed Satan by Allah Almighty’s Great Name. (16:98)
Say “Peace” to the ignorant ones.( 43:89)
Fulfil your obligations and contracts (5:1)
Blessed are those who reconcile between people (4:114)
Remembrance of Allah’s name is greater than the actual Prayers (4:103, 29:45)

Extremely social, totally relating to real/practical life.

[Southie]

Re: Loopholes in Religion

@Monk

mango brother:

Word “worship” is causing little issues here. Common understanding of worship is somewhat
sitting and doing ibadat. Clearly quran’s meaning of worship is much broader… it expand over all aspects of life. Suppose if God wanted to us NOT leave* ja-namaz* he WONT say… give zakat because in order to pay zakat you have to be working and earning money.
So worship is not to be taken in that sense where you DON’T leave the prayer rug.
Here is list God wants us to do:

Do’s:
True Believers establish Prayers to Allah. (2:43, 5:55, 74:39-48, 77:48,)
Be kind to parents, relatives, wayfarers, the needy, orphans (89:17-20, 93:9-11, 107:1-3)
Take care of the Orphans.( 4:3, 6:152)
Say good things to people (4:5, 4:8-9)
Be good to prisoners of war.( 2:85)
Forgive the faults of others. (24:22, 45:14)
Establish regular prayers and pay Zakat (charity). (24:56, 31:4, 70:22-25, 75:31)
Wear pious clothes when you go to the Mosque. (7:31)
Provide evidence and truth. Produce your proof if you are honest. (2:111, 21:24, 27:64, 28:75)
Give thanks to Allah for everything.( 2:172)
For the love of Allah, give help (financial) to kinsfolk, needy (17:26, 90:11-17)
Free slaves (90:11-17)
Punish those who hurt you in equal amount. Punish as you were punished. But if you show patience it’ll be better for you. If you forgive then it is better (6:126, 22:60, 42:40-43)
Be in peace (2:208, 8:61)
Remind the Believers to do Good. (11:114, 51:55)
It is better if you give your charity in secret to the poor (2:271)
Speaking good and offering forgiveness is better than giving charity and hurt or annoy people with it. (2:263-265, 3:134)
Do Good and ask for no Reward (38:86, 42:23)
Fulfil your oaths, and promises, and be trust worthy to all people.( 2:270, 3:76, 76:7-10)
Be a straight and upright believer. (46:13)
Pay back your debt, and give back what you held for others. (2:283)
Be patient and put your full Trust and Faith in Allah all the Prophets did (38:17, 38:41-44, 74:7)
If you forget, then mention the Name of Allah Almighty. (18:24)
Seek knowledge and education (39:9)
Lower your tone when you speak (31:19)
Be humble (26:215)
When you recite the Holy Quran seek refuge from the cursed Satan by Allah Almighty’s Great Name. (16:98)
Say “Peace” to the ignorant ones.( 43:89)
Fulfil your obligations and contracts (5:1)
Blessed are those who reconcile between people (4:114)
Remembrance of Allah’s name is greater than the actual Prayers (4:103, 29:45)

Extremely social, totally relating to real/practical life.

So are you saying all the rishis and maharishis who meditated for tens of thousands of years and attained the ultimate state of enlightenment were misguided?

[Monk]

Re: Loopholes in Religion

@Southie

So are you saying all the rishis and maharishis who meditated for tens of thousands of years and attained the ultimate state of enlightenment were misguided?

Well I let you do the math. If you are better human would society not need you more?
What would be the purpose of withdrawing ?
You don’t have to spend all your life looking for God. When you take one step towards him,
he takes two steps towards you. You should try

[diwana]

Re: Loopholes in Religion

OP position can be refuted by only one example.

As simple as ‘headache’ is. It cannot be measured, observed and reproduced by the person reliably.

People should stop believing that headache exists.

Doctors should just laugh at people who complain of headache and say: Its all in your head.

Pun intended.

[Southie]

Re: Loopholes in Religion

@Monk

Well I let you do the math. If you are better human would society not need you more?
What would be the purpose of withdrawing ?
You don’t have to spend all your life looking for God. When you take one step towards him,
he takes two steps towards you. You should try

But Hinduism does encourage renunciation of worldly possessions and relationships and spending time meditating. Surely you would be for that. Several highways must exist to reach Guruvayurappa?

Or have you found loopholes in Hinduism?

[Southie]

Re: Loopholes in Religion

With respect to to me dear friend, headache can be felt. I feel it everytime…

[MangoMan]

Re: Loopholes in Religion

@Monk

mango brother:

Word “worship” is causing little issues here. Common understanding of worship is somewhat
sitting and doing ibadat. Clearly quran’s meaning of worship is much broader… it expand over all aspects of life. Suppose if God wanted to us NOT leave* ja-namaz* he WONT say… give zakat because in order to pay zakat you have to be working and earning money.
So worship is not to be taken in that sense where you DON’T leave the prayer rug.
Here is list God wants us to do:

Do’s:
True Believers establish Prayers to Allah. (2:43, 5:55, 74:39-48, 77:48,)
Be kind to parents, relatives, wayfarers, the needy, orphans (89:17-20, 93:9-11, 107:1-3)
Take care of the Orphans.( 4:3, 6:152)
Say good things to people (4:5, 4:8-9)
Be good to prisoners of war.( 2:85)
Forgive the faults of others. (24:22, 45:14)
Establish regular prayers and pay Zakat (charity). (24:56, 31:4, 70:22-25, 75:31)
Wear pious clothes when you go to the Mosque. (7:31)
Provide evidence and truth. Produce your proof if you are honest. (2:111, 21:24, 27:64, 28:75)
Give thanks to Allah for everything.( 2:172)
For the love of Allah, give help (financial) to kinsfolk, needy (17:26, 90:11-17)
Free slaves (90:11-17)
Punish those who hurt you in equal amount. Punish as you were punished. But if you show patience it’ll be better for you. If you forgive then it is better (6:126, 22:60, 42:40-43)
Be in peace (2:208, 8:61)
Remind the Believers to do Good. (11:114, 51:55)
It is better if you give your charity in secret to the poor (2:271)
Speaking good and offering forgiveness is better than giving charity and hurt or annoy people with it. (2:263-265, 3:134)
Do Good and ask for no Reward (38:86, 42:23)
Fulfil your oaths, and promises, and be trust worthy to all people.( 2:270, 3:76, 76:7-10)
Be a straight and upright believer. (46:13)
Pay back your debt, and give back what you held for others. (2:283)
Be patient and put your full Trust and Faith in Allah all the Prophets did (38:17, 38:41-44, 74:7)
If you forget, then mention the Name of Allah Almighty. (18:24)
Seek knowledge and education (39:9)
Lower your tone when you speak (31:19)
Be humble (26:215)
When you recite the Holy Quran seek refuge from the cursed Satan by Allah Almighty’s Great Name. (16:98)
Say “Peace” to the ignorant ones.( 43:89)
Fulfil your obligations and contracts (5:1)
Blessed are those who reconcile between people (4:114)
Remembrance of Allah’s name is greater than the actual Prayers (4:103, 29:45)

Extremely social, totally relating to real/practical life.

Thank you monk bhai for such a detailed list. I agree these are all good things. But you can do most of these things even if you are a worshiper of some other God or not a worshiper at all. For example ,
Be kind to parents, relatives, wayfarers, the needy, orphans (89:17-20, 93:9-11, 107:1-3)
Take care of the Orphans.( 4:3, 6:152)
Say good things to people (4:5, 4:8-9)
Be good to prisoners of war.( 2:85)
Forgive the faults of others. (24:22, 45:14)
Provide evidence and truth. Produce your proof if you are honest. (2:111, 21:24, 27:64, 28:75)
Free slaves (90:11-17)
Punish those who hurt you in equal amount. Punish as you were punished. But if you show patience it’ll be better for you. If you forgive then it is better (6:126, 22:60, 42:40-43)
Be in peace (2:208, 8:61)
Remind the Believers to do Good. (11:114, 51:55)
It is better if you give your charity in secret to the poor (2:271)
Speaking good and offering forgiveness is better than giving charity and hurt or annoy people with it. (2:263-265, 3:134)
Do Good and ask for no Reward (38:86, 42:23)
Fulfil your oaths, and promises, and be trust worthy to all people.( 2:270, 3:76, 76:7-10)
Pay back your debt, and give back what you held for others. (2:283)
Seek knowledge and education (39:9)
Lower your tone when you speak (31:19)
Be humble (26:215)
Say “Peace” to the ignorant ones.( 43:89)
Fulfil your obligations and contracts (5:1)
Blessed are those who reconcile between people (4:114)

I don’t think doing these things constitute to worshiping God. So when he says I have not created the human beings but to worship me, it clearly means the actual acts of worshiping as they are known.

Just my two cents.

[Captain_Obvious]

Re: Loopholes in Religion

@diwana

First: loopholes are in the minds of irreligious people, not in religion.

Now, please clarify: Are you saying anything not documented, repeatable, testable or really even observable is just hearsay and people should not believe them adamantly?

Yes or no answer please.

Right, I also wanted to add this–so far I haven’t seen any loopholes in religion identified throughout the 90+ posts so far.

[diwana]

Re: Loopholes in Religion

@Southie

With respect to to me dear friend, headache can be felt. I feel it everytime…

…I read post by diwana?

Sorry to hear that.

But, thanks for agreeing with me.

OP may disagree with you.

@Captain_Obvious

Right, I also wanted to add this–so far I haven’t seen any loopholes in religion identified throughout the 90+ posts so far.

Thank you. Me neither.

[Southie]

Re: Loopholes in Religion

Sorry. Can’t read above post. Hope things are well? How is your team doing in the World Cup? And how is the singing coming along?

[diwana]

Re: Loopholes in Religion

lol

It is called selective reading.

[bella88]

Re: Loopholes in Religion

@MangoMan

Sorry, my mistake.

These are optimistic interpretations. The best case scenarios, I would say, or giving God the benefit of the doubt. Even if we believe this, does that mean there is no hell, no burning, its all just to instill fear in us and no matter what we do in our lives, good or bad, the result will be the same for all of us…heaven? On the other hand, if we don’t believe this and just focus on his words without interpreting them to our convenience, then he is certainly going to punish and burn in hell the people he claims to have immeasurable love for.

But if he has not made himself crystal clear like he has made gravity, then it is obvious that some people will get confused and will associate all kinds of things with being him.

But the existence of interpretations make me wonder whether religion is not explained well by the creator. The confusion is deliberate on his part? If he wanted, he could have chosen not to leave mankind confused about him.

very good points, especially the last one.

[MangoMan]

Re: Loopholes in Religion

@bella88

very good points, especially the last one.

Thanks : )

[Monk]

Re: Loopholes in Religion

@Southie

But Hinduism does encourage renunciation of worldly possessions and relationships and spending time meditating. Surely you would be for that. Several highways must exist to reach Guruvayurappa?

Or have you found loopholes in Hinduism?

I am supposed to find common grounds, not loopholes

[Monk]

Re: Loopholes in Religion

@MangoMan

Thank you monk bhai for such a detailed list. I agree these are all good things. But you can do most of these things even if you are a worshiper of some other God or not a worshiper at all. For example ,
Be kind to parents, relatives, wayfarers, the needy, orphans (89:17-20, 93:9-11, 107:1-3)
Take care of the Orphans.( 4:3, 6:152)
Say good things to people (4:5, 4:8-9)
Be good to prisoners of war.( 2:85)
Forgive the faults of others. (24:22, 45:14)
Provide evidence and truth. Produce your proof if you are honest. (2:111, 21:24, 27:64, 28:75)
Free slaves (90:11-17)
Punish those who hurt you in equal amount. Punish as you were punished. But if you show patience it’ll be better for you. If you forgive then it is better (6:126, 22:60, 42:40-43)
Be in peace (2:208, 8:61)
Remind the Believers to do Good. (11:114, 51:55)
It is better if you give your charity in secret to the poor (2:271)
Speaking good and offering forgiveness is better than giving charity and hurt or annoy people with it. (2:263-265, 3:134)
Do Good and ask for no Reward (38:86, 42:23)
Fulfil your oaths, and promises, and be trust worthy to all people.( 2:270, 3:76, 76:7-10)
Pay back your debt, and give back what you held for others. (2:283)
Seek knowledge and education (39:9)
Lower your tone when you speak (31:19)
Be humble (26:215)
Say “Peace” to the ignorant ones.( 43:89)
Fulfil your obligations and contracts (5:1)
Blessed are those who reconcile between people (4:114)

I don’t think doing these things constitute to worshiping God. So when he says I have not created the human beings but to worship me, it clearly means the actual acts of worshiping as they are known.

Just my two cents.

bhai read it closely,

“Do you not see that unto God bow down in worship (or submit in service and adoration) whosoever is in the heavens and whosoever is in the earth, and the sun, and the moon, and the stars, and the mountains, and the trees, and the beasts, and many among mankind…” (Quran 22:18)

so every thing “worships” by default.
We have choice, we get 2 calls .. one good one …, one from whisperer…

Its very clear worship encompass whole course of action not just prayer-rug. May allah guide us on the right path.