But the principle applies. I can oppose foreign policies and laws of my country, but still love it and be patriotic and at the same time be a committed Muslim. To love one, doesn't require me to hate the other. And criticism of one or both should be seen as constructive as opposed to disloyal to either my country or the Muslim Ummah.
Thanks Sehrysh. I know Canadian Muslims would know what I am saying (like you and D6c). Only reason I was talking about USA is because whole world is burning USA flags and throwing stones at their consulates - but other than that, my thread applies to the whole north america
that is why I was surprised that that how did you miss the whole point bro. You tell me then, What USA has to do with this movie, and how USA flag burning is justified?
Thanks Sehrysh. I know Canadian Muslims would know what I am saying (like you and D6c). Only reason I was talking about USA is because whole world is burning USA flags and throwing stones at their consulates - but other than that, my thread applies to the whole north america
In my first post I said, that is an uneducated behavior and may I add that it contradicts the teachings of Prophet (SAW) too.
not justified. I am big big opponent of flag burning. That’s a mob mentality and totally uncalled for. And no USA has nothing to do with the movie. If you read my posts, I was of the opinion that since this is done by USA citizens, USA should be able to “do more” on this besides just codemning it. Now, I know you and others have disagreed with that position of mine but this is what I hold as my view on this
and I will appreciate you read my ALL posts in this thread
aap kahan thay ab tuk, when i was needing you so much :ASA:
you contradict yourself so many times in this comment that I dont even know where to begin.
when I said 'hate crime', I was talking about the legal definition under which US laws work, not your or my definition.
Please correct me, I wont mind. My point in the comment basically being: YOU (or american muslims ingeneral) dont need to be defensive because we really dont expect you people to be living there and be on the roads too, also when most of you are not even getting the point that the move IS A HATE CRIME (even if not by your definitions, we believe it is because it happened to HURT MILLIONS OF MUSLIMS but directly attacking the most precious personality of their faith. When we have a dispute over whether it is a hate crime or not (you people go by definitions and we go by sentiments) how can there be any unison?
We hold US responsible for all this hate mongering since the producer is a US resident and Youtube is an american website. Had it not be so, any tom dick or harry from any other country could have stand up and do this movie BUT it didnt happen. Because there is only one BHAI in the town and we know who that is.
Plus
We are not even disappointed at our american muslim brethren as we are at the insensitive take of the Muslim Govts esp the Arab ones. They could have raised their voice and make the difference but THEY didnt choose too. You, me, or the thousands burning and creating havoc all together cannot really make any difference.
If I dont agree that USA should do more than just condemning (and when you say that USA should do more then please also tell under which clause of law USA should do that), then does that mean that I dont love Prophet Mohammed as much as others do?
also tell me that if I dont agree that USA should do more, somehow it shows that I am not united with Muslim Ummah?
**We hold US responsible for all this hate mongering since the producer is a US resident and Youtube is an american website. **Had it not be so, any tom dick or harry from any other country could have stand up and do this movie BUT it didnt happen. Because there is only one BHAI in the town and we know who that is.
I had a VERY interesting conversation with someone about just this idea - is the individual responsible for the sins/crimes of the collective. Is silence considered ratification or support of the actions of the collective?
Because if that's the case, then the entire Muslim ummah would be responsible for the hate crimes of the 9/11 bombers, no?
The US should not be held responsible for the movie. The burning of flags or any other form of hatred and violence is not justified.
Ab agar jaan ki panah ho tau I'd like to say something with regards to where I feel the US authorities have failed to "do more than just condemn" but it's got nothing to do with this movie fiasco so may be I should just zip it.
We hold US responsible for all this hate mongering since the producer is a US resident and Youtube is an american website. .
producer is an Egyptian born, an ex con who was in jail for different crimes in USA when he produced that movie, so we should start with burning Egyptian consulate first.
And under which law do you hold USA responsible? Blasphemy might be a Pakistani law (and mashallah Pakistan is using that law so beuatifuly that 11 years old mentally challange girls are thrown in jail for that, bravo for our fake love of prophet ) but not a USA law. US judiciary runs by her law, not by the laws made by a mob who is burning Obama effigy on streets of Karachi
If I dont agree that USA should do more than just condemning (and when you say that USA should do more then please also tell under which clause of law USA should do that), then does that mean that I dont love Prophet Mohammed as much as others do?
also tell me that if I dont agree that USA should do more, somehow it shows that I am not united with Muslim Ummah?
not an expert in USA laws but freedom of speech is governed by some exceptions in constitution and one of them is "SLANDER". If you think the movie was not a slander, that's another point.
for your second point, it shows that you have a difference of opinion at best. There is nothing agaisnt unity there. You and I are united in condemning the movie.
I had a VERY interesting conversation with someone about just this idea - is the individual responsible for the sins/crimes of the collective. **Is silence considered ratification or support of the actions of the collective?
**Because if that's the case, then the entire Muslim ummah would be responsible for the hate crimes of the 9/11 bombers, no?
why? did entire Muslim ummah remain silent on 9/11? Pakistan for one had to suffer the most in aftermath.
Ab agar jaan ki panah ho tau I'd like to say something with regards to where I feel the US authorities have failed to "do more than just condemn" but it's got nothing to do with this movie fiasco so may be I should just zip it.
Tell me what more it should have done? and under which law.
I had a VERY interesting conversation with someone about just this idea - is the individual responsible for the sins/crimes of the collective. Is silence considered ratification or support of the actions of the collective?
Because if that's the case, then the entire Muslim ummah would be responsible for the hate crimes of the 9/11 bombers, no?
Yes then please go and tell US to destroy the entire ummah like she did with Afghanistan for OBL and your pet topic 9/11. Well we are already having drone attacks. Look into the map and see which country is safe, make a list and handover to the US. If this is what pleases you :)
why? did entire Muslim ummah remain silent on 9/11? Pakistan for one had to suffer the most in aftermath.
It was wrong then, It is wrong now.
And did the entire US remain silent with the making and distribution of this film? No - but apparently, the POTUS condemning the movie isn't enough. It's still the US' fault that such hate exists and that Muslims were so offended.
producer is an Egyptian born, an ex con who was in jail for different crimes in USA when he produced that movie, so we should start with burning Egyptian consulate first.
And under which law do you hold USA responsible? Blasphemy might be a Pakistani law (and mashallah Pakistan is using that law so beuatifuly that 11 years old mentally challange girls are thrown in jail for that, bravo for our fake love of prophet ) but not a USA law. US judiciary runs by her law, not by the laws made by a mob who is burning Obama effigy on streets of Karachi
Now, TLK bhai, why does EVERY GUSTAAKH E RASOOL has to go hide under the lap of US? Salman Rushdi and then this Naukula (or whatever) now? Please dont drag me into any debate with you. It doesn't make me feel good.
And whats this with bashing pakistan now and again. So we are just fair and square here right? I bash your country and you bash mine. what else?
Yes then please go and tell US to destroy the entire ummah like she did with Afghanistan for OBL and your pet topic 9/11. Well we are already having drone attacks. Look into the map and see which country is safe, make a list and handover to the US. If this is what pleases you :)
Mirage, we all cant reverse the time, but you know what Muslims in USA did? They voted against republicans in 2008, and even in 2012 we will vote against republicans inshallah. There is no denying that republicans are the filthy and racist, but that does not make USA a filthy or racist country.
Obama pulled the troops out of Iraq and doing the same in Afghanistan. He was pushed to attack Lybia and Syria and Iran, and he did not. He spoke against Israel's plan to attack Iran. He spoke in favor of mosque at ground zero.
You cannot haanko the whole USA with eik laathi please
Yeah based on this flawed analogy of holding the US responsible, should we hold the entire nation of Libya responsible for taking the life of a US ambassador since it happened in their country under their law? They actually killed 4 US citizens. They committed murder. This was just a movie and no one was hurt.
Let me start afresh ... All I am saying is that our intellects may tell us that ignoring the filmmaker may sound like a good tactic, but it is not as good as vocally condemning the video in a sensible way. The Muslims around the world however we react should not concern us ... they are merely reacting in the way they react ... if it hinders our lifestyle in the West ... so what? We should be able to handle all things. The actions of the Muslims would not have happened had it not been for the video ... justifiably or not - the ones who made the video calculated this ... and created a fassad.
Now, TLK bhai, why does EVERY GUSTAAKH E RASOOL has to go hide under the lap of US? Salman Rushdi and then this Naukula (or whatever) now? Please dont drag me into any debate with you. It doesn't make me feel good.
And whats this with bashing pakistan now and again. So we are just fair and square here right? I bash your country and you bash mine. what else?
Salman is a Britisher.
I am not bashing Pakistanis or Pakistan, I am bashing the Pakistani law and its implications. Whole PA is full of it, I am not the only one who thinks like that
