Liberal Pakistani activist Marvi Sirmed takes on Zaid Hamid

[Murfid]

Re: Liberal Pakistani activist Marvi Sirmed takes on Zaid Hamid

@hareem01

You should be the last person talking about morals. You have such a filthy tongue and in each post you have accused me of disgusting things, have some shame please if you're even a muslim, and if you find that pic so offensive you shouldn't have posted it here.

can't believe how low some people can go to prove themselves Allah ke naik banday...disgusting.

That picture is nothing near the crap you watch in Indian and Pakistani movies but guess what? That is accepted by everyone.

Look who is talking. Anyway, I was expecting the same response from people who first lied about the link not working. When others corroborated that the link was working perfectly fine, they edited their first reply (after much time was spent) and took pains to dig up a third-party link, without the pic. They only acknowledged the fact when others called their bluff. And then they started making fun of hijab and supporting that highly offensive picture. What times are we living in really??? One should truly feel disgusted by such bigots.

When some people can't face the facts, they turn to nasty things. They are oblivious to their own character and appreciate mocking of Islamic values but are quick to hurl accusations at others. One should even refrain from reading the response of such lunatics.

And just to set things straight, I don't watch Indian or Pakistan movies.

[hareem01]

Re: Liberal Pakistani activist Marvi Sirmed takes on Zaid Hamid

@The_Jinx

I do not know what the hell is BLA. But BLA stands for Baluchistan Liberation Army. All Pakistanies who are concerned about Pakistan would know what "the hell" is BLA. And no she did not want to talk about the issue of Kashmir. Anyway, Two Nation theory is still relevant. Because we have made it ineffective, hence, the anarchy in Pakistan by the nationalist movements with voices of new provinces in the name of ethnicity. This all goes to show that two-nation theory was there to make many ethnicities as one nation: one ummah with the binding force of religion Islam where non-muslims were given full protection and religious rights as the citizens of Pakistan as well.

The two nation theory didn't make you guys stop slaughtering each other and now that you do have two even three separate countries, so it is irrelevant in that sense. And as someone else here said muslims and hindus were living together for 1000s of years so how come everything just went upside down in the last century?

She did say that she respects the borders between two countries and she only wants the two countries to live peacefully, please don't lie, alright?

Most Pakistanis in Pakistan don't know what's going on in Baluchistan for the past 50, 60 years so why do you expect from me to know every itsy bitsy?

I don't know if she's right or wrong calling BLA freedom fighters but she's obviously not RAW's agent otherwise she couldn't have taken this accusation to court.

[hareem01]

Re: Liberal Pakistani activist Marvi Sirmed takes on Zaid Hamid

@Murfid

Look who is talking. Anyway, I was expecting the same response from people who first lied about the link not working. When others corroborated that the link was working perfectly fine, they edited their first reply (after much time was spent) and took pains to dig up a third-party link, without the pic. They only acknowledged the fact when others called their bluff. And then they started making fun of hijab and supporting that highly offensive picture. What times are we living in really??? One should truly feel disgusted by such bigots.

When some people can't face the facts, they turn to nasty things.** They are oblivious to their own character **and appreciate mocking of Islamic values but are quick to hurl accusations at others. One should even refrain from reading the response of such lunatics.

And just to set things straight, I don't watch Indian or Pakistan movies.

Please stop acting like Zaid Hamid, you don't know me, okay? So stop hurling BS from LCR.

You probably don't watch but all that stuff, and Nargis kay stage shows are openly available everywhere but for some reason that don't offend you guys. Jao pehlay clean the mess in your own street.

[The_Jinx]

Re: Liberal Pakistani activist Marvi Sirmed takes on Zaid Hamid

@hareem01

The two nation theory didn't make you guys stop slaughtering each other and now that you do have two even three separate countries, so it is irrelevant in that sense. And as someone else here said muslims and hindus were living together for 1000s of years so how come everything just went upside down in the last century?

I will leave the rest of the comments since I do not have much of disagreement with those except for you calling me a liar.:) I will leave that since it will be a moot point to debate on that. however, regarding two nations theory and how muslims and hindus were living peacfully before all this, muslims were the rulers of the land before. Once the British empire was established and the ottoman empire was on the verge of breakage, which it eventually did in late 1920's, it was evident that when Britishers will leave, the country will go in the hands of majority of people (hindu). It was understood back then, that it will cause more harm to the values of Muslims. Take for example, we are already under the influence of hindu culture and it's harming us. our weddings are not complete without the rituals taken from hindu culture, you yourself mentioned the crap of bollywood plaguing our society. In India, you will see a large number of marriages between muslims and hindus which is against the Isalmic rulings.

Iqbal was absolutely right when he said

mulla ko jo hay hind mein sajdey ki ijazat
nadan ye samajhta hay ke islam hay azad

[hareem01]

Re: Liberal Pakistani activist Marvi Sirmed takes on Zaid Hamid

@The_Jinx

I will leave the rest of the comments since I do not have much of disagreement with those. however, regarding two nations theory and how muslims and hindus were living peacfully before all this, muslims were the rulers of the land before. Once the British empire was established and the ottoman empire was on the verge of breakage, which in did in late 1920's, it was evident that when Britishers will leave, the country will go in the hands of majority of people (hindu). It was understood back then, that it will cause more harm to the values of Muslims. Take for example, we are already under the influence of hindu culture and it's harming us. our weddings are not complete without the rituals taken from hindu culture, you yourself mentioned the crap of bollywood plaguing our society. In India, you will see a large number of marriages between muslims and hindus which is against the Isalmic rulings.

Iqbal was absolutely right when he said

mulla ko jo hay hind mein sajdey ki ijazat nadan ye samajhta hay ke islam hay azad

Yes, sunni muslims have more freedom in pakistan than india but I disagree with this bit "the country will go in the hands of majority of people (hindu)."... dividing Hindustan was Britishers' idea and our so called leaders helped them in reaching that goal. This is how I see it. Leaving a vast number of muslims and areas with majority of muslims and all the muslim heritage in India wasn't a wise thing to do.

I'm not necessarily against the partition but the way it's done has been causing major problems in all parts of Pakistan. Bengladesh's muslims' culture is closer than hindus in India than muslims in Pakistan, they wear saris and bindis and that's why we hate them, right?

Marvi Sermid and BLA are a reaction of our actions and we should accept that if we truly want to bring a positive change in Pakistan. But the way we handle things, by shutting everyone down, by accusing them is not going to work.

[The_Jinx]

Re: Liberal Pakistani activist Marvi Sirmed takes on Zaid Hamid

@hareem01

Yes, sunni muslims have more freedom in pakistan than india but I disagree with this bit "the country will go in the hands of majority of people (hindu)."... dividing Hindustan was Britishers' idea and our so called leaders helped them in reaching that goal. This is how I see it. Leaving a vast number of muslims and areas with majority of muslims and all the muslim heritage in India wasn't a wise thing to do.

I'm not necessarily against the partition but the way it's done has been causing major problems in all parts of Pakistan. *Bengladesh's muslims' culture is closer than hindus in India than muslims in Pakistan, they wear saris and bindis and that's why we hate them, right? * Marvi Sermid and BLA are a reaction of our actions and we should accept that if we truly want to bring a positive change in Pakistan. But the way we handle things, by shutting everyone down, by accusing them is not going to work.

I don't know wherever you get this idea. May be some do, at least I do not. I have a lot of Bangladeshi friends here.

and at this point, looking at your rest of the post, it is safe to say that we agree to disagree. Peace.

[NomiCA]

Re: Liberal Pakistani activist Marvi Sirmed takes on Zaid Hamid

Why do those who are not pakistani have so much problem with what goes in pakistan anyways??

how is the two-nation theory’s validity or not any of their business?? You moved out of the place…fine…why do you have to now challenge the very existence of the country??

[hareem01]

Re: Liberal Pakistani activist Marvi Sirmed takes on Zaid Hamid

@NomiCA

Why do those who are not pakistani have so much problem with what goes in pakistan anyways??

how is the two-nation theory’s validity or not any of their business?? You moved out of the place…fine…why do you have to now challenge the very existence of the country??

Nomi, very childish, you are obviously twisting my words and looking for fights but you’re not gonna get it so take out your frustration on something else. Adieus

PS: moving out from a country doesn’t make you non-national of that country, even kids know that. And as I said even your favourite Mawlana Maddudi is against this very issue you’re arguing about, try taking out all his written material from your text books before giving verdicts on others. Get off of your computer and talk to some educated people, not everyone has the same view as yours, please enlighten yourself.

[Xtron]

Re: Liberal Pakistani activist Marvi Sirmed takes on Zaid Hamid

Apart from all the debate going on here. I would strongly disagree with Marvi on her denial of two nations theory. Pakistan came into being and on the basis of two nation theory and this is fact. However, i am not fan of Mr. Zaid hamid either. I think he sometimes stetches way too much out of real world or reality.

[hareem01]

Re: Liberal Pakistani activist Marvi Sirmed takes on Zaid Hamid

@Xtron

Apart from all the debate going on here. I would strongly disagree with Marvi on her denial of two nations theory. Pakistan came into being and on the basis of two nation theory and this is fact. However, i am not fan of Mr. Zaid hamid either. I think he sometimes stetches way too much out of real world or reality.

I think most people here are not getting her point, she’s not saying that Pakistan didn’t come into being on Two-nation Theory basis, she’s just saying that we don’t need to use it as a weapon anymore like some other Pakistani intellectuals have said the same thing:

"While some have emphasized that promoting the primacy of a pan-Islamic identity (over all other identities) is essential to maintaining a distinctiveness from India and preventing national “collapse”, others have argued that the Two Nation Theory has served its purpose in “midwifing” Pakistan into existence and should now be discarded to allow Pakistan to emerge as a normal nation-state.[SUP][34]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Nation_Theory#cite_note-burki1999-33)[/SUP][SUP][43]](Two-nation theory - Wikipedia)[/SUP] Prominent political commentator Irfan Husain, in his column in The Dawn, observed that it has now become an “impossible and exceedingly boring task of defending a defunct theory”.[SUP][44]](Two-nation theory - Wikipedia)[/SUP] However some Pakistanis including, a retired Pakistani Brigadier believe that the theory could only be disproved with the reunification of independent Bangladesh, and Republic of India.[SUP]45]](Two-nation theory - Wikipedia)
[/SUP]

[NomiCA]

Re: Liberal Pakistani activist Marvi Sirmed takes on Zaid Hamid

@hareem01

Nomi, very childish, you are obviously twisting my words and looking for fights but you’re not gonna get it so take out your frustration on something else. Adieus

PS: moving out from a country doesn’t make you non-national of that country, even kids know that. And as I said even your favourite Mawlana Maddudi is against this very issue you’re arguing about, try taking out all his written material from your text books before giving verdicts on others. Get off of your computer and talk to some educated people, not everyone has the same view as yours, please enlighten yourself.

I am not looking for fights…why did you take that posts as if it was directed at you?? did i even quote you??

I wonder what forced you to quote that and say all of the above… i think its obvious who is looking for fights…

What does Mawlana Maddudi (who is not my favorite FYI) has to do with anything i said?? and what sort of verdicts did i give??

and Get off my computer screen and talk to educated people?? Just like Murfid guy doesn’t know about you…you don’t know about me either…or for that matter what i do or who i talk to… i shared my views…i don’t know why you are so pissed at me expressing my views?? perhaps you can’t tolerate different view points either…which makes you behave in such a way??

You quote my post (which wasn’t directed at you ) and now accuse me of starting a fight?? …I thought you could do better…

Peace

I am out of this thread…you can go on with your ‘tameez ka dairay’ se baahir discussion…

[Janjua39]

Re: Liberal Pakistani activist Marvi Sirmed takes on Zaid Hamid

kaali bhens!

[Naabigh]

Re: Liberal Pakistani activist Marvi Sirmed takes on Zaid Hamid

Those who dont believe on Two nation theory should surrender their Pakistani Nationality.... or it better get revoked :)

[hareem01]

Re: Liberal Pakistani activist Marvi Sirmed takes on Zaid Hamid

@Naabigh

Those who dont believe on Two nation theory should surrender their Pakistani Nationality.... or it better get revoked :)

No, they should be kidnapped and then slaughtered by ISI. :)

[Naabigh]

Re: Liberal Pakistani activist Marvi Sirmed takes on Zaid Hamid

@hareem01

No, they should be kidnapped and then slaughtered by ISI. :)

ISI is the backbone of Pakistan and has greatly served Pakistan and its people over the years ... Your statement is clearly an insult to their services :)

[hareem01]

Re: Liberal Pakistani activist Marvi Sirmed takes on Zaid Hamid

@Naabigh

ISI is the backbone of Pakistan and has greatly served Pakistan and its people over the years ... Your statement is clearly an insult to their services :)

So whatchya gonna do? make me disappear too?

[Sachaydino]

Re: Liberal Pakistani activist Marvi Sirmed takes on Zaid Hamid

@Naabigh

Those who dont believe on Two nation theory should surrender their Pakistani Nationality.... or it better get revoked :)

This may not affect Don of London who is a British Citizen, but definitely affect millions living in Pakistan.:)

[Naabigh]

Re: Liberal Pakistani activist Marvi Sirmed takes on Zaid Hamid

@hareem01

So whatchya gonna do? make me disappear too?

sure - uttering ' Lahol wala quwat ' in loud voice :)

@sachaydino

This may not affect Don of London who is a British Citizen, but definitely affect millions living in Pakistan.:)

so you are stating that Millions living in Pakistan dont agree with ' Two Nation Theory '

what is the proof of claim made ? any census , referendum , survey ?

[psyah]

Re: Liberal Pakistani activist Marvi Sirmed takes on Zaid Hamid

Peace All

Part of the reason for why I have started the logic course in the Philosophy forum is to encourage the people who come here take care what they read and how they respond to posts.

I have noticed some absurdities that make for cascading ambiguity.

For example the oft repeated phrase:

"... believe in the "Two Nation Theory" ..."

The two-nation theory is not like the theory of evolution where it attempts to predict the outcome by stating the patterns found in historical records ... This "2 nation theory" is a really a treatise and it should be understood as a "two nation treatise" which was prepared to justify splitting the country along borders of demographics ... most people would split countries along geographical regions, but this "treatise" did not do that.

Now for someone to say "so and so believes/does not believe in the 2 nation theory" - to me is making an absurd statement. Rather when we mention the 2 nation theory it should be either "supported" or "not supported" ... now the reason for supporting are:

a) It was used as the basis for the formation of Pakistan, by the country patriots in the mid 20th century.
b) It has a bearing on making clear distinctions between Muslims and Hindus

According to others however supporting this theory on the basis of a) and b) is either:

1) No longer relevant
2) Never relevant even when it was originally conceived

Now for those who say using the 2 nation theory to support further political development in Pakistan is 1) No longer relevant are saying this because we are now 2 nations there is no need to carry on arguing for 2 nations ... Pakistan and India are each countries in their own right and Pakistanis should move forward by not defending themselves from threat of a neighbour that wishes to take them over.

Now for those who say 2) Never relevant often say this because of two reasons:

2a) Religious people say that the 2 nation theory supported the formation of 2 secular democratic states belonging to Muslims and Hindus and the Muslims got the raw deal because their country was split in to pieces and that divide led to its eventual further crumbling. Hence they conclude that the 2 nation theory never really benefited Islam, but may have lined the pockets of some high ranking Muslims.

2b) The secular voices for similar reasons felt that the 2 nation process led to unnecessary death and warfare for false reasons, and if it was needed to create a premise for separation it was only needed for separation ... now the countries are separate what is it that we are trying to separate now if we bring it in to play again???

It so happens that Islamic law - Shari'ah was never the intent but it became a supported endeavour of the religious clergy who had high office where they influenced the politicians to go down such a route. Thus formed a democratic state of Pakistan with a veneer of Shari'ah law .... Religious dissent on this framework is that if Shar'ah is not absolute then the set up is doomed ... Shari'ah will work brilliantly only if implemented over 100% of the political framework ... if it constitutes a portion then not only will it fail but it will become worse that what a totally secularised country will be .... Shari'ah is an all or nothing ideology ... otherwise you will get injustices.

Based on this I believe Zaid Hamid wants to establish Shari'ah ... but I don't see why he has been banging on about the 2 nation theory ... and when Marvi stated that the 2 nation theory (treatise) is no longer relevant it would be for the reasons given above ...

[Dr.LuLworth]

Re: Liberal Pakistani activist Marvi Sirmed takes on Zaid Hamid

Wether its the original DOMINION of PAKISTAN or what came much later as THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF PAKISTAN...

...I'm kind of glad, that these people are actually able to speak their opinion. Zahid uncle or Aunty Ji both. It's their opinion and they can say it if they wish. Dialogue has to take place though, be it ugly. People will get polite soon enough. But these types of dialogues HAVE to happen. This is good.