Lahore Metro Train : Orange Line

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Re: Lahore Metro Train : Orange Line

Im optimistic that with such projects, and the evolution of the political process along with governance in this country, that such issues will resolve themselves over time. Accountability is improving in Pak, people are more aware of the issues.

But none of this will happen without economic development and empowerment. Mass transit is step toward both. It is as essential as electricity is to the far flung villages. Im sure you understand the importance of such projects to the development of the nations cities, and the central role that large cities play in growth.

All I can say is, give it time. Pakistan's problem isnt one of corruption so much as it is about instability. The lack of a stable political environment creates the environment in which corruption and institutional weakness can thrive. Let the system evolve and function. Over time, the wrinkles will be ironed out. India is considered stable not for lack of corruption, but for democratic institutions, built over successive decades which create at least a modicum of political stability and thus growth.

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True but in no other country does PM or CM take direct credit for building roads or rail tracks etc.

Such projects are undertaken at local level

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lol... Of all the things to notice, you notice her purse.

if you were guilty of "looting" the last thing you would want to do is flaunt it with expensive purses i suppose.

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Well, theirs is an antiquated feudal mindset. I think they are part of an old system of patronage going back to the time of the Mughals and then carried on by the British, and now the Pakistanis... Its a tradition in which the leader doles out money and gifts to his subjects, and they bow and thank him... He is the tap from which all things flow... Its that sort of mindset that these people cultivate and the mass populous naively laps up. Its will take time but eventually they will evolve past such a mentality as people become more educated and more discerning. Thats my theory anyway.

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Re: Lahore Metro Train : Orange Line

I'm probably just a product of my environment, but in Britain we say that opposition is half of your government. Opposition is the soul and heart of democracy and it is opposition that sets democracy apart from all other forms of governance styles. Metro Bus project have so many loopholes that it is frankly quite counter productive to ask people not to identify those black holes and speak against them so the future projects can benefit. Opposing world expensive shady projects on merit should not be equated with call for political instability and regime change.

I don't know but you seem to have this impression that before Metro, people in Lahore were riding on donkey carts. But fact is, Metro is just one lane bus route whereas there are 50 different routes in Lahore with severe bus shortages. So really what factor made Metro project the most expensive mass transit project in the world with so many loopholes? Unfortunately, the project cannot be audited because the government building that was storing all Metro files caught fire. How convenient.

But still, one heavily subsidized, debt ridden extravagant icon project cannot be seen as symbol of 'economic empowerment'. Fact is Metro Lahore project alone is costing Pakistan's trouble economy the daily cost Rs5 million. Is this really a sustainable economic model, if you can even call is that?

One thing I have learned from the crisis in Middle East that 'time alone' doesn't fix anything, you need constant efforts to keep the evolutionary process moving forward. Despite political disruptions, Pakistan's economy was actually doing better than India up until the early 90s, while Pakistan got the most corrupt civilian governments in the face of PMLN and PPP to waste the whole decade, India made landmark economic reforms to liberalise their economy to make it more market friendly. So it was not time, India had to think outside of the box and pass reforms to achieve something.

How can the euphoria of economic empowerment be felt when in reality Pakistan has the third highest cooperate tax in the world, it is ranked below Bangladesh in poverty and human development, industries are shut, unemployment and illiteracy is sky high, and there is so much regional and ethnicity based glaring economic disparities?

In the day of information and staunch regional competition - I refuse to believe that Pakistan has the luxury of wasting another generation hoping that time will automatically fix everything.

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Also, Pakistan was the rising economy of swinging sixties, and boom, few years later you lose half of your territory due to long neglected economic disparities. Yes we can argue endlessly that East and West Pakistan was never meant to be together, but if the issue of electoral injustice and economic deprivation was properly addressed, maybe instead of an all out war, a gradual devolution of power and slow succession would have happened which could have saved many precious lives.

So really, couple of cities of Punjab getting debt ridden single lane mass transit pretty buses cannot be an indicator of economic empowerment. That's really naive. Your Baluchistan is still largely uninhabitable, Sindh is backward and undeveloped and so is South Punjab, KP is largely rural and war torn, Karachi is on the brink of infrastructural meltdown, so really the idea of 'progressive' Pakistan cannot be propagated based on prettiness of Lahore and Islamabad or the fact PMLN government a sewerage fixed in Gujranwala or Faisalabad in their 30 years of rule.

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No ones arguing against the importance of the opposition. But let it productive opposition. Lets not be antagonistic for the sake of being antagonistic. The Dharnas and sit ins are useless. In the case of the Metro bus, CPEC etc, the opposition seems to protesting just for the sake of it. So sure, you dont agree with the way in which the Metro Bus was built or is operating... But at least acknowledge that such a system is important to have. But the opposition doesnt even admit to that. They simply oppose it outright, without even considering the benefit to the public. It seems like political point scoring, not productive criticism.

A proper transit system is one which is organized and efficient. Private buses and rickshaws just dont cut it. There is no modern city without a proper transit system. I dont know of any large city other then Karachi, that relies on and functions efficiently, with just private transport. My understanding is that they plan to expand the system in the future. It wont be just this one corridor. Corruption in this case obviously cant be proven, but I like to think that the advantages outweigh costs. i

Almost all Public transit, anywhere in the world, runs in the red. The saving comes through its overall benefit to the average rider, and by extension the rest of the economy. Yes it costs money to run, but what about the money it saves the riders? Thats money they can now put back into the economy. That a poor student or a laborer or anyone living pay check to pay check, can now reach his/her destination economically and efficiently, is true empowerment. There is the benefit of reduced stress for riders, increased productivity, improved health... I mean the benefits of mass transit are immense.
Look at property values. Prices have jumped along that route... Another benefit to the overall economy.

Its not just time that we need to fix things... Its "productive time." Meaning we build the institutions, we allow them to function, we empower people to vote and express their opinion, legislation is passed, reforms are introduced... Yes things need to change, but revolution brings about even more instability then it seeks to cure. What I see from this current opposition is revolutionary mindset... To quote George RR Martin, they would see the country burn if they could rule over the ashes.

Pakistan grew in the past but its was the inherent instability in the political system which meant no long term progress could be made. Army men come and overturn institutions, then democratic govts come and overturn that. India's biggest benefit is its political stability... Stable environments encourage growth and investment.

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Yes Pakistan was growing the 60's. But again, that was a short lived period. Policies are never carried forward, the institutions that a democracy requires weren't allowed to evolve. Without those institutions, Supreme Court, Parliament etc, democracy doesn't work and the grievances that were meant to be resolved democratically cant be resolved.

Look at this insanity... One day the countries a Democracy, the next the entire system is overturned and it becomes a Military dictatorship, then it becomes a quasi democracy, then full democracy, then Army rule... Everyone's introducing their own amendments, handpicking their own parliament, getting rubber stamps from a compliant judiciary... Its mental. Imagine your a potential investor and you see this... You think thats a recipe for success?

And again, i disagree with you assessment of the Metro Bus. This system is one thats been tested and emulated around the world. Its the ideal for economically poor countries like Pakistan. Its transformative in many ways.
Karachi isnt richer for lack of public transport, neither is Peshawar. It needs even more then Lahore obviously.
But no progress can realized unless the democratic system is allowed to continue... Even a broken democratic system is better then none at all. It will be a slow process, but eventually political and social stability will result in growth and overall progress.

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This is simply not true at all. You seem quite misinformed on the whole issue. If opposition didn't believe the importance of mass transit than likes of Karachi and Peshawar wouldn't be asking for an approval of a similar system of their own and funded by their own provisional budgets, from PMLN led Federal government. Things are not as black and white. You really need to differentiate between the concept of mass transit system which is wholly beneficial and PMLN style 'Metro project' which has so many blackholes and drawbacks. If you don't want to hear any opposition to projects you don't like, that's fine, but you can't call it an opposition of sake of opposition. That's how opposition is suppressed and dismissed under dictatorship, not in democracies!

This is not the right attitude. As much you personally like to downplay corruption and massive cost of the project, it is extremely naive to assume that opposition parties won't pick up on it, and they should simply just make peace with it? Why should they? India had managed to come this far because despite weak governments, India always had a tradition of producing strong opposition that's why they didn't really need a third party to keep things in checks and balance. Condemning the opposition view is such anti-intellectual attitude that stops people from thinking, analyzing things, learning from mistakes and striving for better. Metro project cannot be above criticism, it was crictsim of Metro that made KPK Gov come up with a mass transit plan that wouldn't even cost half the price of Lahore Metro. So yes, constructive criticism is essential and it never goes in vain. If someone says that instead of pouring all the debt money in highly subsidized extravagant lollipop projects to win the next elections, money and energies should be invested in launching some kind of education emergency and pass reforms to build institution. If you don't agree with such ideas, that's fine, but don't call them useless!

Again, institutions are not built by sitting idle and hoping that time alone will fix them. Institutions are build when you acknowledge and accept that there are faults that needed to be fixed. From my experience people who use the whole rhetoric of institution building are also the first one to get defensive and obstructive the moment any non-performing and politicised institution lands in hot water. Classic example would be ECP.

As with Metro project, you are simply looking at qualitative analysis of mass transit system which I don't disagree with, but I am more concerned about quantitative drawbacks and strain of debt ridden mega expensive projects like Punjab Metro on Pakistan's economy and growth. You simply won't understand the other side of argument, so it's a pointless debate.

Just so you know, Peshawar wants its Mass Transit and PMLN led Federal government is blocking that. Again you are going to pretend that Pakistan is Scandinavian country, you can possibly fathom any dirty politics is being played at top level by hands of parties like PMLN. So I'm really not going to go into this.

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Re: Lahore Metro Train : Orange Line

I'm not an economist, just know enough about economy to get by in life. But pardon my ignorance, if a passenger pays Rs.20 for bus fare and the government pays Rs.30, how it a benefit to the economy when your economy is incurring a daily loss of billion? Your government is not making any revenue from it, in fact they are paying more money from their own pockets to run the services, it is huge burden on your crippled economy. So as a result, government imposes many high indirect taxes, increases the living cost, and refrains from investing in many other human development and industrial projects because they don't have enough funds as billions are going somewhere else. Consequently, which sector suffers the most in this vicious cycle of shortsightedness? The class the travels on the Metro. Please realise that this actually quite proportionally massive cost of subsidy. Whatever saving passengers are making at individual level is quite irrelevant when we are talking overall economic growth and revenue.

You still haven't answered the question why Punjab Metro is the most expensive mass transit system in the world. What is so special about Punjab Metro that you don't find in the mass transit system belonging to developed countries or equally corrupt countries like India and Latin America. Let's crack the code today.

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What is a definition of 'broken democratic' system? In theory, Military regimes in Pakistan were way more democratic as only in the military regimes that you had local government, and the parliament was also utilized in military regimes. Besides, the biggest 'democratic' party in Pakistan is nothing but monarchical feudal club, people will only analyse these things and reject empty rhetoric and false advertisement only when they have enough education about what a true democracy should look like. But if the definition of broken system is holding periodic elections, then yes Pakistan was always a democracy and so is half of the Middle East. What Pakistan needs is a true democracy, a productive, quality and transparent democracy that bores through independent EC and quality electoral system. Again, it is a very anti-intellectual and undemocratic attitude to demonise opposition because you think it endangers democracy. It's an oxymoron.

How can you even have a proper democracy in a country where your uneducated and educated folks thinking electoral rigging is okay and it is 'part of the system'. Revolution on the streets yields nothing blood and but a revolutionary mindset is needed to steer through a lot of this BS so your mind can always strive for better. A complement mindset which is satisfied with mediocrity is counter productive.

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Yes you are not economist and its clear by your question. So let me try, though i am not an economist but i do public policy type work for living. you need to understand concept of disposable income and economic multipliers. In your example of 20 paid by passenger and 30 paid by Govt is very small part of the equation but lets see how it works in an alternative world where we dont have mass transit the cost of travel say is still 50 but all paid by passenger. So it seems there is an economic wash. However, when Govt pays 30 and passenger saves 30, that 30 savings are going to be used by passenger is number of ways any where from one extra meal outside, fee for child, cup of tea, tikka, etc. This is covered in economic multiplier or how a unit of currency saved by average person goes back in to economy and how it translates in to higher numbers. The interstate development in US generally estimate an economic multiplier of about 6 or every dollar saved in mas transit generating 6 dollars of economic output in the country. There is quite a bit of that in feasibility report. But lets take further the cost of health care. In case of alternative transportation with extra emission, more cars, longer wait times in traffic has economic costs that are being AVOIDED in mass transit. This is call non direct benefits. Simply the cost of society that is reduced by reduced emissions generally overcome most of the first cost of construction.

As for Why Lahore metro was most Expensive. Let me give you the answer by giving you some facts. Firs and foremost the Cost is just one part of the equation. You need to remember benefits as well. There are two kinds of benefits, the benefits that will be generated over the life of the project and additional benefits that are generated if a project is completed in rush manner earlier than otherwise completed. Lahore metro was completed in about 2 years. A similar project average time to complete is 5 years. So to complete in 2 years, offcourse you will work faster and incur more cost but 3 year early completion means 3 years of added benefits on emissions, disposable income, etc.

So In order to call lahore metro most expensive you first need to normalize costs vs. other projects you are comparing that is if another project was completed in 5-6 years, you need to adjust / normalize costs for apples to apples comparison and further you need to add the avoided benefits.

I can go in lot more detail and I am also not professional economist but I have enough training in economics to be able to distinguish whats true economic cost and whats true first cost. You can choose to believe all this or not, as it doesnt matter what you say or not, the benefits that are flowing to end users will determine how good the project is. Same Bull**** and Bakwas was uttered back in 92 about motorway and todays its economic lifeline.

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Re: Lahore Metro Train : Orange Line

Utter nonsense, and lies. The government is paying full price subsidy of empty seats and out of services buses. The Pindi Metro is already half utilised as it is. The poorly constructed few months old Metro bridge already has a crack in it and killed two people. The government is simply not making any revenue on Metro, it is paying back from its own pocket. Inflation is high and indirect taxes are all over the place, prices of petrol are still high despite record decrease in global market, unemployment is sky high, so really the average passenger is saving nothing. Besides, Metro is just one freaking lane. Hardly a proper bus network which is what every city of Pakistan needs. I don't understand why people are going so gaga about it.

Economic growth is measured by employment rate and industrialial output - not debt ridden economy running on $16 billion a year foreign remittance. Despite so called mega development, Punjab unemployment rate is record high.

Yes Nooras were so concerned about finishing the Metro for elections, hence the project got completed in 2 years. Never mind the fact billions more were poured into which could have poured into development. Have some shame, even Bangladesh has moved up the Human Development and Poverty Index league, and they don't have Metros, yet better industrial output.

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As i said same bakwas was done in 92, same bakwas will continue to happen, losers will be losers, haters will be haters, time has come to move on. Agree or not, accept it or not, like it or not, you and I both are irrelevant, I will let populace decide whether the project is good or not, empty statistics that are reflective or day or two are no way representative of life cycle but again it doesnt matter what you choose to believe or not! Vote will decide and yes Lahore metro was done fast for Elections, no denying it but there is an economic reasoning. If you are correct and Metro is not helping people they will VOTE nooras out. So be patient. You are Wrong and you will be proven Wrong.

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Metro project is being criticized the way Motorways projects in 92, and so called Jangle bus serivce in 2012-13...

Both above and many other projects are for now benefiting people at large...and have been crucial in getting PMLN the necessary votes to be important in politics ( i didn't use the word National here because it will burn some people upside down).

Now Orange Metro in Lahore, rural road development project, health and education projects...infrastructure projects in KPK ( hazara motorway), Balochistan and Sindh are going to win them the support they may need in 2018... This is what PMLN is focused and doing...

Now what other parties are doing, PTI...nothing significant ( what IK says doesn't matter, he is certified and proven liar) on ground can be seen...hence the frustration...

Ppp is feeling the heat, uzair baloch might be last mighty blow in Zardari's den and hope fully ppp can get rid of the corrupt...

Another master stroke by PMLN probably in February or March 2016, that is, operation by NAB and Rangers against the criminals in Punjab... This operation shall be cleaning likes of Rana Sanaullah types from PMLN hence acquiring a reputation of clean and better party...

On the other hand PTI is loosing ground in Punjab...reason is clashes between Ch. SARWAR and Aleem Khan and SMQ....and 2ndly stupidity of IK...

So political differences aside, PMLN's strategy is at work and seems to be best policy...and it will pay them off...the three coal projects with combine productivity of 3,500 mw if they get them operational and LNG deals comes through... They'll be considered successful...

IK is helping them out big time and this is something which have empowering Shareef's since 2008...

The frustration of your enemy shows if you are doing right thing...i guess the frustration of pti and ppp speaks alot about the performance...

Now pti supporters can rant all they want..seldom they have anything significant to say...and i can bet they'll be doing the same...till 2018 and would be doing it even after loosing 2018 elections

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Re: Lahore Metro Train : Orange Line

You are just a blind PMLN Jiyala. I can write so much to say what PTI is doing in KPK but your blind Punjabi chauvinism will never see it as development or admit that fact Pakistan goes beyond Lahore, Faislabad and Gujranwala, and it is important to acknowledge that other parts of Pakistan are doing relatively well and can do well. You will never give a brand new party of thee years any sort of credit for doing anything positive in Pakistan's most troubled province. It is not in your interest.

Yes PTI is has made great Reforms and improvement in Health, Education, Infrastructure, Police, Welfare, Environment, but it is pointless to talk to a bigoted mind about all this. You live in Lahore and see roads and Metros, and to you it means Pakistan has landed on moon under Shareef brothers.

Your Shareef brothers are free waste billions of taxpayers money and stolen wealth of other provinces on public ads. But KPK must keep its head down and keep performing and aim to peak at the right time. They don't have the luxury of spending billions on public ads or buying media houses. Yes a lot of your electricity is indeed being produced in public ads.

People like you are reason why there is so much frustration against Punjabis. You boast about mega expensive debt ridden lollipop projects coming in your city, and on basis of that you think your Punjabi oligarchic group must rule whole of Pakistan.

If you want to have Sharif family ruling until 2023, and then make excuses for likes of Hamza Sharif, Maryam Sharif, Hussain Sharif, Hassan Sharif and Maryam Sharif's daughters to rule for another 30 years after 2023, and that's your mentality. Bowing down to dynastic politics is a form of mental slavery.

But there are plenty of Pakistanis that want Pakistan to become a dynamic and robust democracy, and will different options to consolidate the system. If they can't tolerate supposedly working dictators more for than five years, is your saliva drooling wild wish that they will have the patience to tolerate your Sharif brothers for another 10 years. Keep dreaming.

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Re: Lahore Metro Train : Orange Line

^^^
Lol

Frustration at work....wonder if frustation can get pti the support they need...

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Yup. If Nooras keep producing electricity in public ads.

Unemployment all time high, poverty rising, country slipping below Bangladesh in Human development, no police reforms, mega scams, no legislative work and reforms, tax and export targets missed, foreign debt to grow by $90 billion. You freaking bet Patwaris won't be given run for their money in elections time. Keep dreaming.

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Rana sana ullah clean up isnt going to happen. It can be dreamt only.

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As of now Rana Sanaullah is biggest opposer of Rangers operation in Punjab and he at same time is liability for PMLN...which they want to get rid off...so either he fly to Dubai or London, the crime capital of world, or he have to be arrested...