Laanat, Curse !

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Laanat, Curse !

How did u know I was talking about Muawiya? Were those his traits?.......
Which infallible of yours said that........Yazid ibn Muawiya?

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Re: Laanat, Curse !

Peace Nussairee

I have a question. Whether or not Hazrat Hasan & Hussain (RA) cursed the king of Syria when he started cursing his predecessor? I've read they used to visit king and he also gave them money and gifts after the death of Hazrat Ali. If the king was that bad why visited him?

One more question whether Hazrat Ali cursed or taught to curse his predecessors?

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Re: Laanat, Curse !

King gave the gifts and money, did he receive anything ?

Dua-e-Sanam-e-Quraish.

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Re: Laanat, Curse !

Do you have anything to back this up ? some reference from Quran or hadith.....or is it just heard and told fatwa ?

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Re: Laanat, Curse !

Muqawee, ignore the replies I make to shardmanny......laatoun Kay bhoot, baatoun say nahi maantay.....

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Re: Laanat, Curse !

Still there ?

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Re: Laanat, Curse !

of course

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Re: Laanat, Curse !

Ok I thought you had apologized and ment your ways but anyways. Let me just recall the proceedings so far. You advanced this absurd notion:

To which I had responded:

And you said:

So here I bring what I have got for you. We read the following about Sahabi Samra bin Jandab:

**Ibn Abbas said: ‘Once Umar was informed that Samra sold alcohol. Umar said: "May Allah curse Samra! Allah’s messenger said: 'May Allah curse the Jews for Allah had forbidden them to eat the fat of animals but they melted it and sold it.’’
**Musnad Ahmed bin Hanbal, Volume 1 page 25 Tradition 170

As for Nasibi Sahabi Mughira we read in Musnad Ahmad bin Hanbal, Volume 4 Hadith 18485:

“The uncle of Ziad bin Alaqa narrated that al-Mughira bin Shu’aba abused Ali, so Zaid bin Arqam stood up and said: ‘You know that the Prophet forbade abusing the dead, then why are you abusing Ali when he is dead?’”

The hadith has been recorded and declared ‘Sahih’ not only by Shaykh Shoib al-Arnaut in his margin of Musnad Ahmed bin Hanbal, Imam Hakim in ‘Mustadrak’ Volume 1 page 541 Hadith 1419 ‘Kitab al-Janaiz’ but the beloved Imam of Salafies/Wahabies Nasir al-Deen al-Baani also called it Sahih in ‘Selselat al-ahadith al-Sahiha’ Volume 5 page 520 Hadith 2397.
Al-Mustadrak al-Hakim, Volume 1 page 541 Hadith 1419
Selselat al-ahadith al-Sahiha, Volume 5 page 520 Hadith 23

As for general, Ibn Tamiyah confirmed that Sahaba abused Ali bin Abi Talib (as). Remember abusing is a degree higher than cursing.
**
“Verily plenty of Sahaba and Tabaeen used to hate, abuse and fight against Ali.”
**Minhaj al Sunnah, Volume 7, page 137-138

One specefic example of that Ibn Tamiyah was referring to is:

**“On his way to Hajj, Sa’d met Mu’awiya and his companions mentioned 'Ali upon which Mu’awiya showed disrespect towards Ali, Sa’d got angry and asked ‘why do you say such things?’”
**Shaykh Al-albaani graded the above cited Hadith as’Sahih’ in Sahih Sunan Ibn Majah by Albani, Volume 1 page 26.

One of the favorite scholars of the Salafies/Wahaies namely Muhammad bin Abdulhadi al-Sindi (d. 1138 H) in his esteemed commentary of Sunan Ibn Majah testified that according to the tradition of Sahih Muslim, Muawiya ordered Sa’d to curse Ali bin Abi Talib (as).

نال معاوية من علي ووقع فيه وسبه بل أمر سعدا بالسب كما قيل في مسلم والترمذي
**“Muawiya insulted and abused Ali, verily he also ordered Sa’ad to abuse Ali as is mentioned in Muslim and Tirmidhi” **
Sharh Sunnan ibn Majah, Kitab al-Muqadma, Chapter: Merits of Ali bin Abi Talib (ra)

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Re: Laanat, Curse !

Shear stupidity. :smack:

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Re: Laanat, Curse !

apologise to shias? i dont think so

that post included a salaam so you should have known it was not for you at all

[quote]

So here I bring what I have got for you. We read the following about Sahabi Samra bin Jandab:

**Ibn Abbas said: ‘Once Umar was informed that Samra sold alcohol. Umar said: "May Allah curse Samra! Allah's messenger said: 'May Allah curse the Jews for Allah had forbidden them to eat the fat of animals but they melted it and sold it.’’
**Musnad Ahmed bin Hanbal, Volume 1 page 25 Tradition 170

[/quote]

not authenticated but theres no problem with most of the matn

sheikh arnout says sahih isnad nearly always means 'shias posting junk'. you see the same hadiths half of the time being posted as 'sahih sanad' other times just 'sahih'.

do you believe the 'the Prophet forbade abusing the dead'?

i did notice the change of subject to abusing -which in the case of these reports can be a very broad subject including the area of criticising

[quote]

As for Nasibi Sahabi Mughira we read in Musnad Ahmad bin Hanbal, Volume 4 Hadith 18485:

"The uncle of Ziad bin Alaqa narrated that al-Mughira bin Shu'aba abused Ali, so Zaid bin Arqam stood up and said: 'You know that the Prophet forbade abusing the dead, then why are you abusing Ali when he is dead?'"

The hadith has been recorded and declared 'Sahih' not only by Shaykh Shoib al-Arnaut in his margin of Musnad Ahmed bin Hanbal, Imam Hakim in 'Mustadrak' Volume 1 page 541 Hadith 1419 'Kitab al-Janaiz' but the beloved Imam of Salafies/Wahabies Nasir al-Deen al-Baani also called it Sahih in 'Selselat al-ahadith al-Sahiha' Volume 5 page 520 Hadith 2397.
Al-Mustadrak al-Hakim, Volume 1 page 541 Hadith 1419
Selselat al-ahadith al-Sahiha, Volume 5 page 520 Hadith 23

As for general, Ibn Tamiyah confirmed that Sahaba abused Ali bin Abi Talib (as). Remember abusing is a degree higher than cursing.
**
"Verily plenty of Sahaba and Tabaeen used to hate, abuse and fight against Ali."
**Minhaj al Sunnah, Volume 7, page 137-138

One specefic example of that Ibn Tamiyah was referring to is:

**"On his way to Hajj, Sa'd met Mu'awiya and his companions mentioned 'Ali upon which Mu'awiya showed disrespect towards Ali, Sa'd got angry and asked 'why do you say such things?'"
**Shaykh Al-albaani graded the above cited Hadith as'Sahih' in Sahih Sunan Ibn Majah by Albani, Volume 1 page 26.

One of the favorite scholars of the Salafies/Wahaies namely Muhammad bin Abdulhadi al-Sindi (d. 1138 H) in his esteemed commentary of Sunan Ibn Majah testified that according to the tradition of Sahih Muslim, Muawiya ordered Sa'd to curse Ali bin Abi Talib (as).

نال معاوية من علي ووقع فيه وسبه بل أمر سعدا بالسب كما قيل في مسلم والترمذي
*"Muawiya insulted and abused Ali, verily he also ordered Sa'ad to abuse Ali as is mentioned in Muslim and Tirmidhi" *
Sharh Sunnan ibn Majah, Kitab al-Muqadma, Chapter: Merits of Ali bin Abi Talib (ra)
[/quote]

just junk

sa'ad ra was Muawiya ra's approved governor

we have statements from both Ali RA and Muawiya RA limmiting their disagreement

all the above although designed to sensationalise has nothing to do with the basis of my comments

*the cursers of the sahaba, can say 52 prayers a day and they will still be outside the fold of islam. will Allah SWT have some mercy on them? i dont know about all of them, but certainly most of them will not be forgiven neither will they be allowed intercession. *

this opinion is from Quran and does not apply to personal disagreements between sahaba but applies to 12er shias inlight of their aims

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Re: Laanat, Curse !

I knew some Nasibi junk was coming where one would even disown his own scholar. But no problem, here is another authentication for you in terms of matn. In fact, its gonna hurt you a bit since this will tell you the deceiving tactics used by a grand scholar/author. There is no doubt about the incident since it can also be found in Sahih Bukhari. Bukhari recorded this very tradition from his master Humaidi but being a staunch biased Sahaba worshipper, he deleted the name of Samra and hence we can read this tradition in Sahih Bukhari in this manner:

*Narrated al-Humaidi from Sufyan from Amro bin Dinar from Tawoos from Ibn 'Abbas: *
*Once 'Umar was informed that a certain man sold alcohol. 'Umar said, "May Allah curse him! Doesn't he know that Allah's Apostle said, 'May Allah curse the Jews, for Allah had forbidden them to eat the fat of animals but they melted it and sold it." *
See English Sahih Bukhari ,Volume 3, Book 34, Number 426

When we read this tradition from the original source from where Imam Bukhari had taken it i.e. from Musnad al-Humaidi, we find the name of Sahabi Samra is cited:

Narrated Sufyan from Amro bin Dinar from Tawoos from Ibn Abbas who said:
**Once 'Umar was informed that Samra sold alcohol. 'Umar said, "May Allah curse Samra! Doesn’t he know that Allah's messenger said, 'May Allah curse the Jews, for Allah had forbidden them to eat the fat of animals but they melted it and sold it."
**Musnad al-Humaidi, Volume 1 page 17 Tradition 15

[QUOTE]
do you believe the 'the Prophet forbade abusing the dead'?

[/QUOTE]

It does not really matter what I believe or not. We are debating over your beliefs here and per your school, it is indeed forbidden:

"Abusing a Muslim is Fusuq" (Sahih Bukhari)

But why do you ask this question? Isnt it better to stay on the topic instead of enquiring the permissibility of abusing someone or not?

[QUOTE]
i did notice the change of subject to abusing -which in the case of these reports can be a very broad subject including the area of criticising
[/QUOTE]

Not at all. Abusing is worst than cursing hence we all are still on the topic.

[QUOTE]
just junk

sa'ad ra was Muawiya ra's approved governor
[/QUOTE]

Yeah and unlike other Nasibi governors of Muawiyah such as Busr bin Irtat, Ziyad, Kathir bin Shahab, Marwan bin al-Hakam, Sa'ad did not obey they orders of Muawiyah of cursing Ali bin Ai Talib (as) from pulpits!!!

[QUOTE]
we have statements from both Ali RA and Muawiya RA limmiting their disagreement

[/QUOTE]

:DSo Nasibi propaganda machinery is at its best... ic. FYI, the practice of cursing Ali bin Abi Talib (as) from the pulpits was introduced by Muawiya "after Ali bin Abi Talib's death" which continued for 90 years until caliph Umar bin Abdul Aziz did not removed it. This historical fact is suffice to water down your feeble defence for your spritual father.

[QUOTE]
all the above although designed to sensationalise has nothing to do with the basis of my comments

*the cursers of the sahaba, can say 52 prayers a day and they will still be outside the fold of islam. will Allah SWT have some mercy on them? i dont know about all of them, but certainly most of them will not be forgiven neither will they be allowed intercession. *
[/QUOTE]

"All the above" is directly linked to the fatwa that you had advanced agasint the one who curses Sahabi. If an individual cursing a Sahabi is outside fold of Islam acording to you, then by the same token all those who cursed Ali bin Abi Talib (who also happens to be your fourth caliph) also go outside the pale of Islam. There CANNOT be double standards !!!

[quote]
this opinion is from Quran and does not apply to personal disagreements between sahaba but applies to 12er shias inlight of their aims
[/quote]

There is nothing such as "personal disagreements between sahaba" because the instances were not over some personal properties or belongings, rather the basis of those disputes was religious. Dont tell me that the rebellion of Muawiya against your fourth caliph was because Ali bin Abi Talib had caused some personal loss to him :P

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Re: Laanat, Curse !

theres many reasons why imam bukhari rah may have a different matn

one of them is other hadiths of the Prophet Sallallahu alaihi Wasallam.

i dont see a problem with the hadith as it is in bukhari.

for the accused it says "*Doesn't he know" *-did he know?

For Umar RA it speaks volumes for him, he forbid evil and commanded RIGHT!

[quote]

It does not really matter what I believe or not.
[/quote]

you dont have any fixed beliefs how can it matter?

thats one of the issues we have shia pagans cursing Companions RA and your source is very secretive but certainly not the Prophet SAW. so you are disbelievers and imposters, and you bring hermaphrodite type circus

[quote]

We are debating over your beliefs here and per your school, it is indeed forbidden:

"Abusing a Muslim is Fusuq" (Sahih Bukhari)

But why do you ask this question? Isnt it better to stay on the topic instead of enquiring the permissibility of abusing someone or not?

[/quote]

the question is what do i and other muslims think of a religion whose joint primary purpose is to curse and abuse?
**
the Prophet SAW said **"Abusing a Muslim is Fusuq (an evil-doing)" (Sahih Bukhari)

the Prophet SAW said:
The stars are means of security for the heaven, [that is, the heaven is maintained because of the delicate order among the stars]. When the stars are scattered [when that order collapses], what was promised for the heaven befalls it *. I am the means of security for my Companions [my Companions will continue to live in peace and security as long as I am alive]. When I leave the world, what was promised for my Companions will befall them. My Companions are means of security for my nation (Ummah). When my Companions leave the world, what was promised for my Ummah will befall them [they will be exposed to many misfortunes and calamities]

for Allah SWT the Prophet SAW said: "my generation is THE best"

[quote]

Yeah and unlike other Nasibi governors of Muawiyah such as Busr bin Irtat, Ziyad, Kathir bin Shahab, Marwan bin al-Hakam, Sa'ad did not obey they orders of Muawiyah of cursing Ali bin Ai Talib (as) from pulpits!!!

[/quote]
sa'ad just continued cashing his salary! ok, what happend to your imamat theory here?
did the Prophet SAW not make known what he was sent for?*

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Re: Laanat, Curse !

^ take that BOY-NICE!.....c if u can make some sense out of it....

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Re: Laanat, Curse !

[QUOTE]
:DSo Nasibi propaganda machinery is at its best... ic. FYI, the practice of cursing Ali bin Abi Talib (as) from the pulpits was introduced by Muawiya "after Ali bin Abi Talib's death" which continued for 90 years until caliph Umar bin Abdul Aziz did not removed it. This historical fact is suffice to water down your feeble defence for your spritual father.

[/QUOTE]

you forgot to tell us Muawiya IBN YAZID was educated correctly, a pious man wasnt he? yazid installed him by mistake, failed to see the love of the Prophets familly in him!

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Re: Laanat, Curse !

Yazid installed him?.....when?......before he got lost in the jungle?

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Re: Laanat, Curse !

ok point accepted
yazidis installed him? tell me about ibn yazid

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Re: Laanat, Curse !

Marwanis installed him and uninstalled him to sit on the King's seat themselves....

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Re: Laanat, Curse !

I send lanat on zardari, altaf hussein, nawaz, mush all day all night.

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Re: Laanat, Curse !

Good on ya mate! the rest of the awaam is with you. :hehe:

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Re: Laanat, Curse !

Blah blah... Not rebutting the proofs I had provided means admission on your part that companions did abuse/curse each other. That is suffice to bring down the entire structure of the ediotic ideology fabricated by yopur forefathes regarding companions i.e. no one can criticise a companion otherwise he goes out of the pale of Islam.

Also, the point was to refute your typical Nasibi attitude via which you had made a feeble attempt to declare the report of Musnad Ahmed as weak. Its not surprising that you do not have further lies to offer!

[QUOTE]
you dont have any fixed beliefs how can it matter?
[/QUOTE]

So I now need to take lecture on "my beliefs" from a person who belongs to a cult that firmly believes in the stupidities such as Allah (swt) keep changes his position, he has legs, hands, travels on mosquitoes etc etc.

[QUOTE]
thats one of the issues we have shia pagans cursing Companions RA and your source is very secretive but certainly not the Prophet SAW. so you are disbelievers and imposters, and you bring hermaphrodite type circus
[/QUOTE]

How conveniently you escaped the main issue herein ie. aforementioned pagans cursing one of the great companions of your foruth caliph!! But I can understand, this is what happens when a Nasibi rely too much on the literature supplied my boy loving Mullahs fall flat in front of historical facts.

[QUOTE]
the Prophet SAW said:
The stars are means of security for the heaven, [that is, the heaven is maintained because of the delicate order among the stars]. When the stars are scattered [when that order collapses], what was promised for the heaven befalls it *. I am the means of security for my Companions [my Companions will continue to live in peace and security as long as I am alive]. When I leave the world, what was promised for my Companions will befall them. My Companions are means of security for my nation (Ummah). When my Companions leave the world, what was promised for my Ummah will befall them [they will be exposed to many misfortunes and calamities]
[/QUOTE]

LOL. The calamities and misfortunes had befallen on this Ummah because of the acts of some of the companions themselves that is why we see that they did not even spare other companions and waged war agasint them. Some malicious ones had audacity to rebel agasint the caliph of ther time, who also happened to be the greatst companion himself.

That is why you are constantly advsied to keep the home made fabrications to yourself otherwise you will keep facing embarrassment.

[quote]
sa'ad just continued cashing his salary! ok,
[/quote]

Be that as it may, but he did not obey the orders your nasibi spritual father, namely Muawiya bin Hind, for cursing Ali bin Abi Talib (as), period!!!

[QUOTE]
what happend to your imamat theory here?
did the Prophet SAW not make known what he was sent for?
[/QUOTE]

Now whats the point of this one?*