Koonday

[muali]

Re: Koonday

All that matters to me is that Koonday does taste really good.....yummmmm

[ravage]

Re: Koonday

[quote]

by larger framework of religion I mean religion as noted in quran. Nothing to do with our current day mullahs opposing or accepting it.

[/quote]

but present day mullas would be for it or oppose it on the basis of valid sources of Islamic beliefs, including Quran (and hadis/established tradition for some folk).

You are no different from a Mulla (i dont mean an insult by it). I just meant interpreter of religion.

There is religious basis for it. Those who observe it believe it to be something encouraged by an imam (imam jafar).

[quote]

so maybe a nice to do, but not per religion's commands. I mean I can start feedng ppl kitkats on some day and while t may be considered as a good thing of bring pp together and sharing etc, it does not become part of religion.

[/quote]

No... at worst a nice thing to do, at best something that has religious value (mustahab, but not wajib). I for one am not sure it is something authentically Islamic based on valid islamic sources, but feel at worst its like giving people kitkats.

[quote]

so what islamic religious event does koonday observe? eid? mairaj? hajj? ramadan?

[/quote]

I meant the opposite, I was pointing out a problem in your analogy i.e. whereas i think all christians celebrate christmas in some way or another (with or without the cultural variance of the tree) that doesnt apply to koondey, i.e. it isnt a universal religious event with cultural variance.

[ravage]

Re: Koonday

interestingly enough, you mention mairaaj as an islamic religious event and there is a current thread that is debating whether it is infact an islamic religious event.

[smma59]

Re: Koonday

@fallenpieta

We are not talking about hindus/jews/christians. It was a simple question: Is this a shia practice?

are you a new muslim that do not know majority of muslim including celebrate 22 rajab koonday?

22rajab koonday is also a symbol or islamic unity because all the sunnis and shia both celebrate in the same way explained by you.

shocking

[Mr_Fraudia]

Re: Koonday

*but present day mullas would be for it or oppose it on the basis of valid sources of Islamic beliefs, including Quran (and hadis/established tradition for some folk). *

present day, or past days. I mean all I know is that the prophet did not do koonday ad niether did anyone around hi.

You are no different from a Mulla (i dont mean an insult by it). I just meant interpreter of religion.

I am not interpreting religion, I am asking for the basis to consider it a religious event/obligation. So far I dont see any basis in religion for it. historial basis..maye, religious, not really.

There is religious basis for it. Those who observe it believe it to be something encouraged by an imam (imam jafar).

ahh and thats where we are different, with as much respect as I have for all of our imams, ulema and sahaba,, I dont think they are God or the prophet (pbuh), and while they can interpret and while they can give insights, they cant add..or delete from what is religion.

No... at worst a nice thing to do, at best something that has religious value (mustahab, but not wajib). I for one am not sure it is something authentically Islamic based on valid islamic sources, but feel at worst its like giving people kitkats.

hey man, I have no issues with nice things, as long as someone does not tell me its part of religion. Its a tradition bringing people together in some sort of remembrance, but to me thats about all it is. but thats just my point of view.

I meant the opposite, I was pointing out a problem in your analogy i.e. whereas i think all christians celebrate christmas in some way or another (with or without the cultural variance of the tree) that doesnt apply to koondey, i.e. it isnt a universal religious event with cultural variance.

Thats why i as asking that if koonday is cultural way of celebrating some religious event (I think its more of a historic event than religious event whatever it is).. what is this event. see religious events are significant to all adherents of a religion, but historic events may or may not have significance in the religion context, but could still be meaningful to followers i.e. observing the arrival date of the gentleman who brought islam to Morocco, significant in Morocco as a historic event but has no real religious meaning.

[Mr_Fraudia]

Re: Koonday

@ravage

interestingly enough, you mention mairaaj as an islamic religious event and there is a current thread that is debating whether it is infact an islamic religious event.

I just threw a few examples out there, does not mean that I believe that shab e mairaj does or does not have any religious significance in terms of observing or celebrating.

[ravage]

Re: Koonday

@Fraudz

**but present day mullas would be for it or oppose it on the basis of valid sources of Islamic beliefs, including Quran (and hadis/established tradition for some folk). **

present day, or past days. I mean all I know is that the prophet did not do koonday ad niether did anyone around hi.

I also mentioned “established tradition”. for some people ijtihad and bai’t are also valid sources of Islamic belief. There is no existing school of thought (not even salafi) that does not recognize the rulings of eminent jurists and imams as valid sources of Islamic belief.

I am not interpreting religion, I am asking for the basis to consider it a religious event/obligation. So far I dont see any basis in religion for it. historial basis..maye, religious, not really.

ahh and thats where we are different, with as much respect as I have for all of our imams, ulema and sahaba, I dont think they are God or the prophet (pbuh), and while they can interpret and while they can give insights, they cant add..or delete from what is religion.

That is the only place where I differ from you. Everyone who says what is and is not religion is interpreting the Quran and the words of the Prophet unless he is the Prophet of God. You are just as much an interpreter of the religion when you decide if a given basis if sufficient or not.

Nobody in my opinion can decide what Islam is definitively and have everyone else take his word for it. It can only be an interpretation, a viewpoint, a perspective.

hey man, I have no issues with nice things, as long as someone does not tell me its part of religion. Its a tradition bringing people together in some sort of remembrance, but to me thats about all it is. but thats just my point of view.

I have no issue with you saying it isnt part of religion from your point of view just as long as you recognize that from another point of view it it is part of how they practice their faith.

Also bear in mind that this thread started as a criticism of that practice and not a shia telling others that it is a part of their religion that they should observe.

Thats why i as asking that if koonday is cultural way of celebrating some religious event (I think its more of a historic event than religious event whatever it is).. what is this event. see religious events are significant to all adherents of a religion, but historic events may or may not have significance in the religion context, but could still be meaningful to followers i.e. observing the arrival date of the gentleman who brought islam to Morocco, significant in Morocco as a historic event but has no real religious meaning.

Okay… no, it isnt exactly like people celebrating the arrival of the person who brough Islam to Morocco, unless the people celebrating his arrival also believe they are getting sawab for it, and believe an eminent jurist/imam encouraged it.

[Sheraz_CT]

Re: Koonday

[Mr_Fraudia]

Re: Koonday

I also mentioned "established tradition". for some people ijtihad and bai't are also valid sources of Islamic belief. There is no existing school of thought (not even salafi) that does not recognize the rulings of eminent jurists and imams as valid sources of Islamic belief.

interpretations, not additions from what I know. I could be wrong, but thats what I know thus far.

*That is the only place where I differ from you. Everyone who says what is and is not religion is interpreting the Quran and the words of the Prophet unless he is the Prophet of God. You are just as much an interpreter of the religion when you decide if a given basis if sufficient or not. *

I dont see a basis yet, so I cant interpret it.

*Nobody in my opinion can decide what Islam is definitively and have everyone else take his word for it. It can only be an interpretation, a viewpoint, a perspective. *

well, I think the basic parts of faith are listed in the Quran, anything above and beyond that is dodgy..

I have no issue with you saying it isnt part of religion from your point of view just as long as you recognize that from another point of view it it is part of how they practice their faith.

I am saying I do not find basis of this practice in the word of god or the prophet.

Also bear in mind that this thread started as a criticism of that practice and not a shia telling others that it is a part of their religion that they should observe.

and my intent is not to bash, but to learn, and sometimes direct questiosn help more than the links and the long cut and pastes people write. If you have doubts on my intent you can even read the hijab thread where I was asking for exact definition of ijab per religion. consider me the proverbial gadfly

Okay... no, it isnt exactly like people celebrating the arrival of the person who brough Islam to Morocco, unless the people celebrating his arrival also believe they are getting sawab for it, and believe an eminent jurist/imam encouraged it.

I think they do celebrate it thinking there is sawab, and believe that it is encouraged.

I mean many things we do provide us sawab, but it does not mean that they become a religious commandment.

are people who are not participating in this ignoring something that they should be doing. Additionally the manner of observing it, does it have religious significance. i did not realize that koonday was a shia event, as I know many ppl shas and sunni who do it. I dont think that they have meethi puri etc for this day either among iranians, iraqis or indonesians :) and I dont think that Imam Jafar had meethi puri either.

I could however be mistaken

[ravage]

Re: Koonday

@Fraudz

I also mentioned “established tradition”. for some people ijtihad and bai’t are also valid sources of Islamic belief. There is no existing school of thought (not even salafi) that does not recognize the rulings of eminent jurists and imams as valid sources of Islamic belief.

interpretations, not additions from what I know. I could be wrong, but thats what I know thus far.

ijtihad will always entail believing a new thing to be a part of Islam.

strictly speaking bringing guests over and having food with them is not an addition to the religion in that it is already considered to be a mustahab sawab (sila rehmi, hospitality, being kind to relatives). the only question is that of timing,

I dont see a basis yet, so I cant interpret it.

I am saying I do not find basis of this practice in the word of god or the prophet.

Interpreters’s dont always decide the meaning of a basis. They also decide the validity of it.

well, I think the basic parts of faith are listed in the Quran, anything above and beyond that is dodgy..

Yes, and being kind to your neighbours and relatives is there. As we know how to practice the beliefs listed in the Quran has been explained and expanded over time by the Prophet and those who came after him.

and my intent is not to bash, but to learn, and sometimes direct questiosn help more than the links and the long cut and pastes people write. If you have doubts on my intent you can even read the hijab thread where I was asking for exact definition of ijab per religion. consider me the proverbial gadfly

I appreciate that, i meant that I personally would want to tell you that its a part of the faith that you should practice.

I think they do celebrate it thinking there is sawab, and believe that it is encouraged.

It is like that then.

I mean many things we do provide us sawab, but it does not mean that they become a religious commandment.

If by commandment you mean obligation, then sure I agree. It isnt an obligation at all. It is sawab though.

are people who are not participating in this ignoring something that they should be doing.

Should people be participating in something that is sawab? Potentially we ignore millions of things every day that we could do to gain sawab, i think this is one of those things.

Additionally the manner of observing it, does it have religious significance. i did not realize that koonday was a shia event, as I know many ppl shas and sunni who do it. I dont think that they have meethi puri etc for this day either among iranians, iraqis or indonesians and I dont think that Imam Jafar had meethi puri either.

I could however be mistaken

Oh i didnt say its only a shia event. A lot of sunnies do it apparently, although I dont know any who do. The only basis I know of is from Imam Jafar, perhaps sunnies have another basis (although sunnies also revere Imam Jafar and he is a teacher of imam abu hanifa).

[Mr_Fraudia]

Re: Koonday

Thanks ravage, I think I have a better understanding of this than I had when i joined this thread. Appreciate your straight forward responses and answers.

[ravage]

Re: Koonday

your welcome :k:, wish all discussions were this way

[Oscar]

Re: Koonday

I m Sunni Muslim Alhamdolillah, and still I feel that if shias celebrate 22 rajab for the alleged reason, they are right.

[OMG]

Re: Koonday

[fallenpieta]

Re: Koonday

@smma59

are you a new muslim that do not know majority of muslim including celebrate 22 rajab koonday?

22rajab koonday is also a symbol or islamic unity because all the sunnis and shia both celebrate in the same way explained by you.

shocking

Instead of name calling, why don’t you just answer a simple question?

[fallenpieta]

Re: Koonday

@ravage

pieta, your kindof late in the thread. you have code-red here, and there are atleast some other sunnies who practice it, I’ve posted an archived paklinks thread on this topic earlier in the discussion. see this post:

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showpost.php?p=4347427&postcount=28

whether they are sufies/barelvies is another matter, and you excommunicate them elsewhere.

I put this question before everyone a very long time ago.

[smooth_guy]

Re: Koonday

I found a fatwa on MSN groups. Please don’t use it to flame other sects. I just got the confirmation of 22nd Rajab’s event that took place. Thats all I needed. No Shia bashing plz. Lakum Deena Kum Wal Yadeen.

http://groups.msn.com/ISLAMzProtector/articals.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=119

Thanks everyone for sharing your views. I think This thread can now be closed.

[Sheraz_CT]

Re: Koonday

@smooth_guy

I found a fatwa on MSN groups. Please don’t use it to flame other sects. I just got the confirmation of 22nd Rajab’s event that took place. Thats all I needed. No Shia bashing plz. Lakum Deena Kum Wal Yadeen.

http://groups.msn.com/ISLAMzProtector/articals.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=119

Thanks everyone for sharing your views. I think This thread can now be closed.

thanks for posting the link..inshallah aglay saal aur josh say koonday manayengay :biggthumb :yahoo:

[Jal_Pari]

Re: Koonday

Oh god what is the big deal here? We did Koondays in Pak all the time. Yes it is cultural thing and we do it for Imam Jaffir Sadiq. I failed to see what harm is in gathering up some relatives and reading up Quran and Naat and giving out food and donations. It gives us just another day out of 365 of busy days to do something good . At least we are not doing Mattam wataam or crying or beating ourselves up. No it is not Shia thing. It is not compulsary but it is recommeded to do as a cultural thing and have some sawab at the same time. I will always remember this day when we had most yummy food making puris etc and I read Quran paras as much as I could.

[smooth_guy]

Re: Koonday

Jal, I assume you can’t read Urdu. If you can or in family if anyone can then find out the real intention behind it. In our family as well some ppl used to do that back in Pak, but as I wanted to do a reality check I raised this question. And I have got the answer for my satisfaction. I am not saying you should do the same, but I am against any celebration that has dubioius roots, specially when it is based on a hatered and non of Sahaba or Ta’abai did it.

From now on, I will ask my family to do fatiha and Quran khwani etc etc on a more significant day. i.e. Hijrat-e-Madinah, Fatahe Makkah, Youme Badar etc etc, or any day of the year in remembrance of great work that was done by Prophet :saw: and all of his companions. Not to mention that we do isaale sawab for all of them and kul momineen o mominaat round the year anyways, specially during Ramadan, Eidaien, Moharram, Nisf-Shabaan, every Friday and other recommended days by Prophet himself.