You missed this!
Ahlel Bayt Articles Hadith About the (Non)Incident of the Pen and Paper [A Sunni Perspective]
Amazing to c the lengths ppl like Ibn Sadique go to defend Khalifa Umar. E.G. he compares Khalifa sahab's refusal and clear disobedience of Rasool Akram (s.a.w.w.) (which made the prophet angry and made even Ibne Abbas cry, all according to the great Sahi Bukhari) to Imam Ali's unwillingness to write a statement which is against fundamental belief of Islam!
-Did the prophet condemn or** became angry with Imam Ali ath the hudaybia treaty **as he did with Khalifa Umar in the event of thursday? (i think the earlier is what Mr Ibne Sadique may b trying to portray)
-Imam Ali's action was infact a great one since only the prophet of Allah had the right to address himself as 'Mohammad Bin Abdullah' as the whole deen of Allah with its kalima e shadat that we read revolves around the prophet and the Almighty. Hence its only Allah (swt) or his apostle who have to authority to alter/change it. This actually shows the solidness and strength of Imam Ali's emaan, subhan Allah!
Nussairee Obviously you are just skimming through and not reading well - please ponit out in the hadith where it clearly says that Prophet (saw) got angry with Hz. Omar (ra) specifically.
Prophet (saw) go angry with hue and cry of the people around - the anger was not directed at Hz. Omar (ra) - just your wishful thinking.
Nussairee Obviously you are just skimming through and not reading well - please ponit out in the hadith where it clearly says that Prophet (saw) got angry with Hz. Omar (ra) specifically.
Prophet (saw) go angry with hue and cry of the people around - the anger was not directed at Hz. Omar (ra) - just your wishful thinking.
I am posting the actual hadees here from Sahi Bukhari:
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 288:
Narrated Said bin Jubair:
Ibn 'Abbas said, "Thursday! What (great thing) took place on Thursday!" Then he started weeping till his tears wetted the gravels of the ground . Then he said, "On Thursday the illness of Allah's Apostle was aggravated and he said, "Fetch me writing materials so that I may have something written to you after which you will never go astray." The people (present there) differed in this matter and people should not differ before a prophet. They said, "Allah's Apostle is seriously sick.' The Prophet said, "Let me alone, as the state in which I am now, is better than what you are calling me for." The Prophet on his death-bed, gave three orders.......
Thanks for admitting that Rasool Allah (s.a.w.w.) did get upset. Now having said so, what was the reason of his grievance? Why was the cause of the disagreement? Was it not Khalifa Umar's disobedience once again? What does Quran say about obeying the prophet (s.a.w.w.)
Surah Nur verse 54 "Obey Allah and his Prophet and if you dispute, then on him is what is imposed on him and on you is what is imposed on you; and if you obey him you are guided aright; and there is no duty on the Prophet save the clear delivery"
Surah Nisa verse 80 "He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah: But if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds)."
Surah AL-AHZAB, verse 36: "It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path"
Surah Anfal verse 46 "And obey Allah and His Messenger and do not quarrel�."
There is so much else to write on Khalifa Umar but i will try not going to waste further time on this. I recommend u guys to go study tareekh.
*ive studied enough about the companions of prophet muhammed ( saw) :) what they are and who they are? they the ones who stood by our prophet (saw) in hardship...I]
Assalam Alaikum wrw all,
wow, thanks for the thread ibn Sadique. I am going to suppress the urge to reply for the cause of Iteehaad e Bainul Muslimeen thanks to the senior respected guppies Pathan Bhai and Code_Red.
Still i will ask our sister ayesha, since she is new here, to read the background of the following verse:
Chapter 3, verse 152: The Amramites (Ãli-´Imrãn)
Allah verily made good His promise unto you when ye routed them by His leave, until (the moment) when your courage failed you, and ye disagreed about the order and ye disobeyed, after He had shown you that for which ye long. Some of you desired the world, and some of you desired the Hereafter. Therefore He made you flee from them, that He might try you. Yet now He hath forgiven you. Allah is a Lord of Kindness to believers.
May Allah protect us from your evil!
Destroyed are those who compromise on Aqeedah, which is extracted from the Quran and the Sunnah, in favor of adultered history.
:
your beliefs are as irrational and historically inaccurate as the beliefs of those who believe in infallible imams. Adultrated history is what you believe in whitewashed by fabricated narrations as you are the follower of those who for centuries licked the boots of the usurper kings.Who disregarded the shura and persecuted the best amongst the muslims and put the worst amongst them in power.
by companions I meant sahaba...
i mean the same the words sahabi and companion are almost interchangable
btw thank you bro ibn sadique for making that change
I am posting the actual hadees here from Sahi Bukhari:
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 288: Narrated Said bin Jubair:
Ibn 'Abbas said, "Thursday! What (great thing) took place on Thursday!" Then he started weeping till his tears wetted the gravels of the ground . Then he said, "On Thursday the illness of Allah's Apostle was aggravated and he said, "Fetch me writing materials so that I may have something written to you after which you will never go astray." The people (present there) differed in this matter and people should not differ before a prophet. They said, "Allah's Apostle is seriously sick.' The Prophet said, "Let me alone, as the state in which I am now, is better than what you are calling me for." The Prophet on his death-bed, gave three orders.......
Here the prophet Muhammad (SAW) was concerned about his ummah even when he was deathly ill ... subhanAllah he loved his Ummah! In the time of need Islam permits self-preservation. According to those who love him they will want him to recover before he uses up his energy doing things for others. It broke out into an argument because some people who were more concerned with their own 'guidance' which is noble too, were not obviously understanding the concern the close companions had for the welfare of the prophet Muhammad (SAW). But because there was an argument Muhammad (SAW) wanted to settle it.
Thanks for admitting that Rasool Allah (s.a.w.w.) did get upset. Now having said so, what was the reason of his grievance? Why was the cause of the disagreement? Was it not Khalifa Umar's disobedience once again? What does Quran say about obeying the prophet (s.a.w.w.)
No it was no such thing as per hadith the only cause for the becoming upset was due to the argument that developed afterwards. I can say this because just like any mother loves it when her son disobeys her about letting her clean the dishes and he sits her down and does the dishes himself even when she insists, in the same way RasulAllah would have been pleased with Umar (RA) for the disobedience in favour of his health.
Surah Nur verse 54 "Obey Allah and his Prophet and if you dispute, then on him is what is imposed on him and on you is what is imposed on you; and if you obey him you are guided aright; and there is no duty on the Prophet save the clear delivery"
That is true.
Surah Nisa verse 80 "He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah: But if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds)."
So Nussairee why are you watching over the deeds of other people, when you can see clearly that Allah (SWT) is telling you not to do so?
Surah AL-AHZAB, verse 36: "It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path"
That is true also ...
Surah Anfal verse 46 "And obey Allah and His Messenger and do not quarrel."
That is true also ...
There is so much else to write on Khalifa Umar but i will try not going to waste further time on this. I recommend u guys to go study tareekh.
I recommend you to study adab. And to ask yourself why certain people did certain things. I also recommend you to study the manner in which context should be taken with regards to Ayaat and how they are or are not applicable. Just because the generality of a verse seems to fit your understanding it does not mean there cannot be specific scenarios that modify your understanding of those verses.
As I said earlier .... Obeying someone is noble but disobeying someone for their love and benefit is also noble. There is a system of priority in Islam. Umar (RA) did not believe that Muhammad (SAW) would die, but rather have him recover and then tell everyone what was needed. That is the only thing that makes sense here, otherwise he would have been rebuked by many of the companions. Rather the only morsel of a statement was a retrospective one, because only afterwards it was realised that Muhammad (SAW) was on his final moments.
Note: Ali (RA) also out of love disobeyed RasulAllah (SAW). And I'm sure if you are a good son to your mother you will also prevent her from washing your dishes or cooking you food.
Re: In defence of Hz Umar (ra) (In response to Pagluu’s Post)
I believe it is not fair to compare two refusal from two noble companion of holy prophet (pbuh) [Hazrat Ali(ra) and Hazra Umar(ra)] because the whole background is different
As rightly pointed out by Nussairee
*-Imam Ali's action was infact a great one since only the prophet of Allah had the right to address himself as 'Mohammad Bin Abdullah' as the whole deen of Allah with its kalima e shadat that we read revolves around the prophet and the Almighty. Hence its only Allah (swt) or his apostle who have to authority to alter/change it. This actually shows the solidness and strength of Imam Ali's emaan, subhan Allah!
*
On the other hand refusal of Hazrat Umar can be termed as human weakness. He has known to have repented later in life for his rude behaviour and arguing with prophet (pbuh) during Treaty of Hudaibya.
Similarly, prophet Muhammad (pbuh) got very annoyed with Hazrat Ali (ra) when he planned to do 2nd nikkah while in presence of his first wife Hazrat Fatima (ra) [beloved daughter holy prophet pbuh ]
So we can not take an isolated account of history and judge a person's charachter selectively. That is very biased approach IMO.
We should take human weakness into account as these noble companion were best of the best muslims. And we can learn all the good things about religion from them and ignore few errors and misjudgments.
ive studied enough about the companions of prophet muhammed ( saw) :) what they are and who they are? they the ones who stood by our prophet (saw) in hardship. and whats the whole grudge against umar (ra) about?
Thats why i am saying, you dont know about the other chapter, my advise to is that , please and read about the first year of death of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh).. what happens to his family,, who burnt Fatima(as) house,, how she lost her few months baby, why she stop talking to first caliph.. and so on,,,
also see, what happens to prophet grandsons,, how they died, where they died,, who is responsible for these mass death,,,,,,,,,,gooooooooooooooooooooooooo
and come back after study....
your beliefs are as irrational and historically inaccurate as the beliefs of those who believe in infallible imams. Adultrated history is what you believe in whitewashed by fabricated narrations as you are the follower of those who for centuries licked the boots of the usurper kings.Who disregarded the shura and persecuted the best amongst the muslims and put the worst amongst them in power.
The day you bring us something from the Quran or the Prophet's Sunnah in support of your wretched views, is when you'll be considered worth answering.
I recommend u guys to go study tareekh.
And here is the secret behind the misguidance of many in this forum.
Formalizing their creed according to whatever tareekh they read. A recipe for disaster!
Assalam Alaikum wrw all, wow, thanks for the thread ibn Sadique. I am going to suppress the urge to reply for the cause of Iteehaad e Bainul Muslimeen thanks to the senior respected guppies Pathan Bhai and Code_Red.
Still i will ask our sister ayesha, since she is new here, to read the background of the following verse: Chapter 3, verse 152: The Amramites (Ãli-´Imrãn) Allah verily made good His promise unto you when ye routed them by His leave, until (the moment) when your courage failed you, and ye disagreed about the order and ye disobeyed, after He had shown you that for which ye long. Some of you desired the world, and some of you desired the Hereafter. Therefore He made you flee from them, that He might try you. Yet now He hath forgiven you. Allah is a Lord of Kindness to **believers.
*Pagluu *– Now you remember “Iteehaad e Bainul Muslimeen” after you have spewed your venom here – All your accusations were debunked.
Don’t even try to pretend to be concerned about “Iteehaad e Bainul Muslimeen” . You were aware and intentions were clear when to posted the BS.
You bring all the BS from extreme 12er sites believing it be true and post it here to cause fitnah.
Don’t suppress your urges now. If you the guts be a man and defend what posted.
Lucky you that I have some spare on me time this week and can take on your challenge and if you persist I will bring forth material attributed to your imams which will make even the hardcore sailors blush.
Now again you have quoted an ayah from the Quran – Please show us how this ayah relates to Hz. Umar (ra)?
In fact if you had only read the ayah yourself you would have got your answer.
"Therefore He made you flee from them, that He might try you. Yet now He hath forgiven you. Allah is a Lord of Kindness to believers". 3:152
Allah (swt) tried the Muslims at the time of battle of Uhud – When the Quraish under the command of Hz. Khalid bin Al Waleed ambushed the Muslims and overwhelmed them, some Muslim fled.
Allah (swt) has stated that He forgave them and that they are the Believers.
Who are you to account them when Allah (swt) Himself has forgiven them and addressed them as Believers?
I recommend u guys to go study tareekh.
Guidance is ONLY in the Quran and Sunnah of the Prophet (saw) - And if you are looking for Guidance then you will find it there and not in history books.
History is always distorted, subjective and biased. Leaved it to scholars.
Allah (swt) is not going to ask you questions from history but how much you followed the Quran and the Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (saw).
Therein lies your salvation - Quran and the Sunnah
I believe it is not fair to compare two refusal from two noble companion of holy prophet (pbuh) [Hazrat Ali(ra) and Hazra Umar(ra)] because the whole background is different
As rightly pointed out by Nussairee
**
On the other hand refusal of Hazrat Umar can be termed as human weakness. He has known to have repented later in life for his rude behaviour and arguing with prophet (pbuh) during Treaty of Hudaibya.
Similarly, prophet Muhammad (pbuh) got very annoyed with Hazrat Ali (ra) when he planned to do 2nd nikkah while in presence of his first wife Hazrat Fatima (ra) [beloved daughter holy prophet pbuh ]
So we can not take an isolated account of history and judge a person's charachter selectively. That is very biased approach IMO.
We should take human weakness into account as these noble companion were best of the best muslims. And we can learn all the good things about religion from them and ignore few errors and misjudgments.
About right.
Thats why i am saying, you dont know about the other chapter, my advise to is that , please and read about the first year of death of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh).. what happens to his family,, who burnt Fatima(as) house,, how she lost her few months baby, why she stop talking to first caliph.. and so on,,,
also see, what happens to prophet grandsons,, how they died, where they died,, who is responsible for these mass death,,,,,,,,,,gooooooooooooooooooooooooo
and come back after study....
honestly bro I know alot more than you think about the prophet (saw) and thier family,... the first year of the prophets (saw) death was'nt pleasent for fatima (ra) and what happened with the ahley bait in karbala goes beyond words rite? but how is the first caliph responsible for any of this? for one thing I hate the ones who did wrong with ahley bait and for another im sure it wasnt any of the first three caliphs.. all this about fatima (ra) house being burnt by one of them is mere conspiracy.
*Pagluu *– Now you remember “Iteehaad e Bainul Muslimeen” after you have spewed your venom here – All your accusations were debunked.
Don’t even try to pretend to be concerned about “Iteehaad e Bainul Muslimeen” . You were aware and intentions were clear when to posted the BS.
You bring all the BS from extreme 12er sites believing it be true and post it here to cause fitnah.
Don’t suppress your urges now. If you the guts be a man and defend what posted.
Lucky you that I have some spare on me time this week and can take on your challenge and if you persist I will bring forth material attributed to your imams which will make even the hardcore sailors blush.
Now again you have quoted an ayah from the Quran – Please show us how this ayah relates to Hz. Umar (ra)?
In fact if you had only read the ayah yourself you would have got your answer.
"Therefore He made you flee from them, that He might try you. Yet now He hath forgiven you. Allah is a Lord of Kindness to believers". 3:152
Allah (swt) tried the Muslims at the time of battle of Uhud – When the Quraish under the command of Hz. Khalid bin Al Waleed ambushed the Muslims and overwhelmed them, some Muslim fled.
Allah (swt) has stated that He forgave them and that they are the Believers.
Who are you to account them when Allah (swt) Himself has forgiven them and addressed them as Believers?
Guidance is ONLY in the Quran and Sunnah of the Prophet (saw) - And if you are looking for Guidance then you will find it there and not in history books.
History is always distorted, subjective and biased. Leaved it to scholars.
Allah (swt) is not going to ask you questions from history but how much you followed the Quran and the Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (saw).
Therein lies your salvation - Quran and the Sunnah
About right.
Brother, there are much more kharafaat (even about our own Prophet!)in the Saha Sitta but i am refraining from writing them (i respect the book but its not 100% correct and above critical analysis specially considering it was writting during the caliphate of the damned Ummayas). Anyways, life goes on and we all as individuls have the gift of aqal and we all cud reach to our own conclusions if we try. And i think the main thing that counts is our actions that we will be questioned upon on the day of judement and not anyone elses (like Pathan Bhai said earlier). My main rationale behind criticizing Khalifa Umar was because he played the leading hand in a lot of way in issues that have shaped the Muslim ummat for the past and its current state (which is infront of everybody to judge. Its not pretty!). Anyways, disagreements aside, i think its time we post in this forum stuff against our real enemies and expose the likes of the Zionists, America, Britain, their proxy Muslim leaders etc who want to destroy our faith completely.
Re: In defence of Hz Umar (ra) (In response to Pagluu’s Post)
" The Prophet said: "In the nations long before you were people who were spoken to [by the angels] although they were not prophets. If there is anyone of them in my Community, truly it is Umar ibn al-Khattab." This narration is elucidated by the two narrations whereby "Allah has engraved truth on the tongue ofUmar and his heart" and "If there were a Prophet after me verily it would be `Umar."
Enough said, some people need to stop wasting their time.
Brother, there are much more kharafaat (even about our own Prophet!)in the Saha Sitta but i am refraining from writing them (i respect the book but its not 100% correct and above critical analysis specially considering it was writting during the caliphate of the damned Ummayas). Anyways, life goes on and we all as individuls have the gift of aqal and we all cud reach to our own conclusions if we try. And i think the main thing that counts is our actions that we will be questioned upon on the day of judement and not anyone elses (like Pathan Bhai said earlier). My main rationale behind criticizing Khalifa Umar was because he played the leading hand in a lot of way in issues that have shaped the Muslim ummat for the past and its current state (which is infront of everybody to judge. Its not pretty!). Anyways, disagreements aside, i think its time we post in this forum stuff against our real enemies and expose the likes of the Zionists, America, Britain, their proxy Muslim leaders etc who want to destroy our faith completely.
*the book is not 100% correct? which book are you talking about? Umar ra was not the only khalifa who shaped Islam as we see it today...lol *
" The Prophet said: "In the nations long before you were people who were spoken to [by the angels] although they were not prophets. If there is anyone of them in my Community, truly it is Umar ibn al-Khattab." This narration is elucidated by the two narrations whereby "Allah has engraved truth on the tongue ofUmar and his heart" and "If there were a Prophet after me verily it would be `Umar."
Enough said, some people need to stop wasting their time.
exactly!... if the prophet (saw) hiself declared umar (ra) to be the bearer of truth how can you people be so unjust and claim him to be evil?
"every soul shall taste death" you will have to answer your accusations one day....
Re: In defence of Hz Umar (ra) (In response to Pagluu’s Post)
^ Ayesha, some people have too much time on their hands, and sheytaan gets them to waste it on futile things which could become harmful for them later on.
Let them be, they will learn soon enough.
^ Ayesha, some people have too much time on their hands, and sheytaan gets them to waste it on futile things which could become harmful for them later on.
Let them be, they will learn soon enough.
True...may Allah guide us all
Ameen:)
Pagluu - Nobody ever claimed that Saha Sitta are infallible- only Quran has this distinction. After Quran Saheeh Bukhari and Saheeh Muslim are the most authentic/correct books and these are followed by the next four books.
These great books were compiled by great scholars who have highest integrity and uprightness. These books are not written by Ummayyads – don’t pay much attention to what you are spoon fed by the Zakirs at the imambarghas.
As I have said before that I know which 12er Shia site from you have copied the material from and** it is better for you and your kind to pay some critical analysis to Shia books** – you will have material there which will make even a hardcore sailor blush.
Our great scholars have done all the “critical analysis” for these books – sorry we don’t need 12er Shia services for this – you stick to your books.
You so right and you can see that the Majority of Muslims (85% 90%) have used **their gift of aqal **and are not 12er Shia. They are more concerned with their deeds and beliefs rather than what happened 1500 years ago. Quran and Sunnah only
Your rationale??? And are an ayatollah or something!!!** You are not even fit to criticize the discarded slippers of Hz. Umar (ra).**
Your rationale??? My (left) foot.
Even the non Muslims acknowledge the greatness of Hz. Umar (ra) – it is only 12er Shias and their kin who hate him due to what they are spoon fed by Zakirs from day one when enter the Imambargahs.
Hz. Umar (ra) is the son in law of Hz. Ali and Hz. Faitmah (May Allah be pleased with them both).
Your infallible imams have tremendous love and loyalty Hz. Umar (ra) - Check your own books. Go ahead and deny it as usual that your imams got it wrong or the book is not well known or something to the effect.
Imam Jaffar as Sadiq (ra) expressed his support to Abu Bakr and Umar:
Once wife of Imam Jaffar as Sadiq asked him about Abu Bakr and** Umar**.
He replied, “I support them”.
Then he said to his wife,” you should support them also.”
His wife replied, “So should I say to my creator when I meet Him, that it is your order to support Abu Bakr and Umar.”
The truthful Imam Jaffar replied, ” Yes."
- Source: Rawzatul Kafi, vol.8, p.101
We have the following narration from Saheeh Bukhari - Obviously you will not agree to it.
Al-Bukhari reported on the authority of Ibn Abbas: When (the dead body of) 'Umar was put on his deathbed, the people gathered around him and invoked (Allah) and prayed for him before the body was taken away, and I was amongst them. Suddenly I felt somebody taking hold of my shoulder and found out that he was 'Ali bin Abi Talib. 'Ali invoked Allah’s Mercy for 'Umar and said, *"O 'Umar! You have not left behind you a person whose deeds I like to imitate and meet Allah with more than I like your deeds. By Allah! I always thought that Allah would keep you with your two companions, for very often I used to hear the Prophet saying, 'I, Abu Bakr and 'Umar went (somewhere); I, Abu Bakr and 'Umar entered (somewhere); and I, Abu Bakr and ‘Umar went out.’ *Saheeh Bukhari Volume:5 Book :57 (Companions of the Prophet)Number :34
See what Hz. Ali (ra) has said about Islamic unity – “So be with him and be with the great majority (of Muslims) because Allah’s hand (of protection) is on keeping unity”
With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority (of Muslims) because Allah’s hand (of protection) is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is (a prey) to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is (a prey) to the wolf.
Please next time refrain from attacking the great leaders of Muslims and leave your flawed rationale aside to yourself.
How about giving some critical analysis of Al-Kafi? Eagerly waiting for your scholarly analytical works.