Khalifa, the definition, requirement (split from What is Pakistan thread in PA).

Society Religion & Philosophy
41

What kind of question is that? Perhaps I was not clear. Off course not.:smack:

I gave few examples. The essence was that Khalifa is not required to do what is needed to be done.

42

Re: Khalifa, the definition, requirement (split from What is Pakistan thread in PA).

diwana, please refer to my post on page # 1 (post # 14 & 21). I shared my understanding of the Islamic rulership there (to the best of my knowledge). Wallahu aalam.

wasalaams
ramesha

43

All fardh are prescribed in Quran, can you please enligthen us where Allah swt mentioned that establishment of Khilafah is fardh and that of the type established by Companions RA.

44

Walekum Salam friend,

All what i can say is in my post 33.

Simply put there is no need for ANYONE for any human being to do hard work and good deeds. All it needs is motivation from inside.

Rest of the stuff I can agree with you for the sake of agreement.

45

u r undermining the role of a leader my friend. The yazeeds/saddams/firaouns/namroods of the world do not mind our prayers, zakat, hajj at all. It is the rule of the God that they are afraid of. Hazrat Ibrahim, Musa, Isa, Mohammad were opposed by the establishment of the time because they looked them in the eye and challegened their unjust authority.

46

Re: Khalifa, the definition, requirement (split from What is Pakistan thread in PA).

^ for once, i totally agree with u

47

no doubt that Islam has emphasised alot on the self purification and that should be the goal of all the Muslims on the personal level but this is not a condition for establishment of an Islamic leadership. The rule of Imamat/Khlafat is to guide the ummat after our master Guide Prophet Mohammad passed away. And i think that guidance should be descending and not ascending. And remmember what was said above by a brother that Islam has a greater role to play then just on the personal level ie political.

bro if u think that somehow miracoulously all the Muslim ummah will achieve self purification and then there wont be any bad guys left and when no bad guys left then a JUST leader will be chosen/nominated to fill the leadership vacuum. And since all the people will be SADIQ and AMEEN, they will abide by this khalifa/imam and all shall live happily ever after! bro as much as i would love to see the above happen it wont. Coz u know shaitaan isn't sitting there doing nothing. And no representative of Allah has been able to get the people to agree on the truth. Like sister said in earlier post that even in Prophet Mohammads' time there were munafiqeen within the Islamic circles. So if people who sat, ate, drank, talked with our Prophet did not accept his mission and worked against him, how could you expect today after 1400years 1.6Billion Muslims to somehow miracoulously embrace it and agree on it.

In Quran Sura Nissa verse 59, obedience to the "Prople in charge/authority" is made obligatory and i find it hard to believe that Quran will not contain any guidance as to how this authority is established. On one hand we say Quran is a complete book and contains everything from what to eat, who to marry, what to wear, how to engage in sexual activities etc and on the other hand we say Quran does not say anything about something as fundamentaly important as chosing a leader! Some have said that Allah subhana wa ta'lah has left that for us to decide. Well if this was the case then Quran would have said so and put forward clear rules like it has done for the other commands. I believe that Quran does have EVERYTHING in it and we just have to look harder. May be we have gone blind and may be it will take Imam Mahdi to open our eyes! May Allah hasten his appearence, Insha Allah........in the meantime we must strive to purify ourselves, ask Allah and his messenger for continous guidance so we could recognise the right from wrong and support the forces who are fighting for the truth.

Timepass / Uncle Ehsan's Baithak - August 2012
48

I appreciate that brother. Thanks

49

One post above gave example of the mistakes people do when they try to follow one person. Saddam, firoun or whatevr. Anyone good enough to lead muslims? The goodness is inside us all if we look for it.

OK. After reading above posts I am convinced we have no will to do good in personal life and all around the world. We will keep waiting for some god sent ‘leader’ to tell us what to do.:smack:

Till someone comes, we will not pay tax, clean roads, build
infrastructure, govern people honestly and make our country strong.

We should keep looking at the sky.

50

Re: Khalifa, the definition, requirement (split from What is Pakistan thread in PA).

^ i dont disagree at all with wht u have said must be done on the individual basis. But wht we r trying to discuss here is how Islamic model of leadership could help collect these individuals and then mobilize them to spread ideas Islam stood up for, that is love, fairness and equality for all the mankind w/o any iscrimination. u c the trouble is that the goodness that u say is inside all of us is not shared by the powers that control the world. I m sure American ppl r good but arent their govts' ambitions evil? Australians r nice n friendly and dont approve of their govts involvement in invasion of the other countries! Brits r good and certainly dont like the lies of their govt! any human with even a touch of humanity will detest the situation Palestinians have been living in for decades. Yet nothing has been done abt it!

Having said that first we will have to clean our house and put it in order. We as Muslims with the template given to us by the Prophet should have been the chamapion of the human rights. But unfortntly today we r the front runner violators of the human rights and everythingelse Islam stood up for and promised to deliver. We have a dark record of killing our 2nd, 3rd, 4th Khalifa. Heck, we didnt even spare our Prophets' family and brutally killed them only 50 years after the Prophet had passed away! Why is that? May b we need to critically study the history and find out at what point the Islamic mission halted and what were the main causes behind it?

Despite all this the main power of the world still see Islam as a major threat to its injustices. This means that the Islamic mission is not completely dead and the reason for that is that Islam is the message of God and it is protected by God himself. If its defence was upto us then it would have long gone because it has seen some serious resistence from day one.

Islam will not come to us but its our job to go to Islam. Its just that we arent prepeared from inside to go towards it. And brother, in saying we r waiting for the God-sent leader it doesnt mean we stop striving to work for what Islam stood for. With right intentions 3 decades ago a man called Ruhullah Khomeini brought the revoloution of the century that changed the nation of 60 million! Today unfortunately this empty seat is being hijacked by the Talibans, Osama B Ladens and other corrupt Mullahs of the world. Our enemies couldnt be happier with this scenario or may be they are the ones who r backing these evils to be the flag bearers using the name of Islam! But God protects his religion through some people as stated in Quran and when i see Hezbollah and Hamas, i see the evidence of that.

51

Re: Khalifa, the definition, requirement (split from What is Pakistan thread in PA).

Just need confirmation that prophethood was completed way before and by the time Imam Mehdi or some god sent khalifa comes as it is believed, people have responsibility on their own PERSONAL shoulders to carry out good work.

Today is the day we do good and hope to do good tomorrow. Without someone telling us.

The example you gave of Khomeini is of only that country. What about rest of muslim population in the world? Do you want to see hundreds, thousands or whatever large number of people to get killed before citizens of a country do good things inclluding not following evil dictators or tulers? We know Khomeini had to kill people in masses to get achieve his goal. Good or bad doesn't matter. Many say it was good and many say it was not.

I mean Why hung up on Khalifa theory. I call it theory since it has no strong basis. Whatever Quranic verses qouted here only talk about human being or mankind as a whole being khalifa on earth. NOT JUST ONE PERSON.

In other words we all are appointed as khalifa and must do good as individuals.

If a large number of people do good together it helps everyone and earth is peaceful.

If you were travelling in african jungle, would you have called by cellphone the khalifa what to do when river comes in front of you and you have no boat? Just an example but a lot to ponder my friend. You better know how to cross river if out in the jungle. Same is true in living in this world. You better know how to live happily and constructively without one person help.

Allah did not want ONE PERSON to be the leader of mankind after he was done sending Nabi or prophet.

If he wanted then he would have sent more prophets after the last one. Also Imam mehdi and Issa are to come back as the followers of last messanger carrying out the same message. As I understand.

So here we go. The same message you and I have in our possesion we need to ACT ON IT. Not wait for someone to tell us.

If we do not act on it, Imam Mehdi and Issa will come back and spank us.

So do the right thing (pay the tax, clean the road, heal the sick, pray, and fast without show-off, don't lie, rape, murder etc.) and don't wait for so called Khalifa to tell you what to do.

52

Right when you show me where it claims its fardh to recite fatiha in Salah?

Whether we like it or not, Khilafat will come before the days of Judgement. I dont get why we bite our nails over it.

Its funny how pakistanis think white people are gods.

53

bro could u provide a proof for me from the Holy Quran abt ur claim that between the Prophet and Imam Mahdi the responsibility is with the people? What mode of govt are people to choose? As far as i know in Islam it is not the government of the people; it is the government of Allah (verse 33:36)

And please inform me where Seyyed Khomeini “killed people in masses” as i would love to find out. Feel free to provide from even American sources.

When Allah said that he is to make a khalifa on earth, read from tafseer Al Mizan an excellent explaination: Tafseer Al-Mizan

lastly, i dont even know if i make myself clear in my writing. Read the following book if u get time as i found it very useful- http://www.al-islam.org/imamate/

54

Ammar man, you may be sincere in your thinking but you need to learn a lot from your fellow Pakistanis here in GS. :D

Just spend a few months and I am sure you would start thinking rationally. In fact, when you really do become rational, then your love for Islam would channel into something productive that really brings a positive change.

So chill..!!

Cultural Shocks
55

I have no intention to make anyone feel bad here or turn into a deeper argument. I would say you are right and we do not need to bang head to each other.

I have already given my thoughts.

Just do the good deeds.

Peace.

56

this is just another topic here on this forum among billions of other topics being discussed on the internet and i tried to write what i have understood so far in life. In the real world i try to achieve no more than wht u ve said, that is try to better myself. Imam Ali said "One who got to recognise his true SELF will find the GOD".

i have a very good life & i m sure u have too Insha Allah, thats why we even have time to come here to pass our time. but i dnt know if we cud ever truely comprehend the sufferings the ppl of the world, including muslims and non muslims, that they r going thu. Its a terribly oppressive world out there. So right was Iblees when he told Allah that this human tht u have created will make a lot of bloodshed on the earth!!

i wish we cud end all this by just being good or doing good deeds ourselves. But unfortntly that is not possble for various reasons tht r well known to ppl. But we have the biggest hope in the name of Imam Mehdi whose arrival our Prophet has promised. But at the same time recognise and support the ppl who we believe r standing up for the truth on this earth. Given the situation of the world today who knows, tomorrow we mite have to choose sides and things mite not be as comfortable as they are today! and i fear if i stay ignorant and self centered, i could be one of the people who fought our Prophet when he declared Islam! Or i wonder if i was in karbala which side would i have been on? Peace and nice talking to u. All the best.

57

Thanks. Good thoughts.

There is no way you will be on the wrong side if keep up with your concious voice. There is inherent good in human being. When Shaitan said this human will cause fasad on earth the creator said I know what you don't know.

So search your soul and you will find your own khalifa right inside you if you are sincere. Then you can follow anyone with better understanding if you still want to follow ONE MAN.

Peace and take care.

58

Re: Khalifa, the definition, requirement (split from What is Pakistan thread in PA).

Khilafat is biddat, isn't it? There was no Khalifa in the time of Prophet :)

Khalifa is a title just like Caesar, Shahenshah, Czar, etc.

We can call Zardari our Khalifa, he sure is not half as bad as the Ummayiads.

59

[QUOTE]
Khilafat is biddat, isn't it? There was no Khalifa in the time of Prophet
[/QUOTE]

[sarcasm]yes i agree with you.

There is also no shalwar kameez at the time of the Prophet, nor any trousers[/sarcasm]

i think you need to look at the Quran because Allah has made it a hukm to appoint a khaleef as the one who administer the laws of Allah within the Quran... and Prophet (saw) administered the laws as entered Madinah even though his compainions (and the Ansar) were minority but still everyone Madinah knew who was incharge so the Jews settled disputes with Muslims by going to appointed the Prophet as well as their social disputes but their religious disputes they solved it themselves... thus he administed the laws of Allah (swt) after gaining nusrah from the Ansar of Madinah...

Regarding the above Quote... your opinion is based on a slogan that you do not understand,,, how about studying... Oh i forgot studying requires sacrifice,, and it is easier to take a slogan and shout it, then study it..

(just like jashne-azadi in 14 th August... What freedom..there is no such thing as absolute freedome.. and if you translate it to independance, then definitely that is poor translation, a misleading translation and very dangerous slogan indeed).

I don't wish to enter the debate because it reeks of opinions without evidences...

but I will add my contribution by quoting my favourite

[QUOTE]

Most Islamic groups that were founded after the fall of the khilafa recognize the importance of re-establishing al khilafa again. There was a time during the decades of the eighties and nineties when the Salafi’s, Ikhwaan, Jamaat Islami, HT, Jihad groups and even some of the sufi’s talked about khilafah. Since then and because of the fact that the West has made it clear that it doesn’t like that idea and would not tolerate it, some groups have backed off completely from any talk of khilafah while others toned it down. Only a few remained steadfast in their call to establish the Islamic system again.

[/QUOTE]

and

[QUOTE]

The next problem is that when you repeat a lie long enough you end up believing it. For those who knew these groups from the eighties it is strange for them to see how much they have changed over time. Now they are saying and I have heard this more than once from their prominent members that now we genuinely do believe in the democratic system. We believe in the ballot not bullet. And if the ballot decides that a secular or disbelieving party wins we will accept that.

[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]

The final problem is that the Muslims’ method is not a method of infiltration. Muslims do not try to infiltrate the system and work from within. It is just not our way. It is the way of the Jews and the munafiqeen but not the way of the Muslims. We are honest and straightforward with friend and foe

[/QUOTE]

and finally and probably most partaining the poster of the original discussion

[QUOTE]

To wait for nusrah until it arrives is to wait for a miracle. Tribes or military generals that are supposed to give nusrah and establish the religion of Allah are not going to be won over simply by discussions. They will only be won over when they see a group of believers living by what they say and sacrifice all that they own for the sake of Allah. This is what will inspire others to join. The two success stories of powerful people giving nusrah to the religion are some of the former officers of the Iraqi baath regime who joined the insurgency and the former president of Chechnya, Dudayev, who was a high ranking officer in the Soviet army. Both these successful examples of nusra were not won over through debates, demonstrations and pamphlets but by them seeing a living example of men struggling in the path of Allah.

[/QUOTE]

It may appear a bit cryptic if you read it alltogether but as I said my intention is not enter the debate that lacks evidence and provides many opinion, .. my purpose is simply to sprinkle some of the fancy salt (or add more opinions if you prefer)

60

arabs you mean? :)