Khalifa, the definition, requirement (split from What is Pakistan thread in PA).

[ramesha]

salaam desertbird,

The declaration at Ghadeer is defenately not a lie as it is one of the most narrated event of the Islamic history. You may wish to disagree with the interpretion of the event which you have a right to. For details you could search this forum and there has been plenty of debates about it before.

Secondly, you said that Quran does not mention anything explicitly as to how to chose a leader. I beg to differ as Quran clearly says that the right to chose a leader belongs to Allah (swt) alone and not the people (Sura Qasas 28:68). For example, story of Talut is in reasonable detail in the Quran (Sura Baqarah: 246, 247). Hence creation and legislation is by Allah's will alone and man has no choice in either of these fields.

Thirdly, i would like to clarify the methods you mentioned were used to chose the first 4 khalifas:

1- Hz Abu Bakar was nominated at Saqifa not by majority but by just 3 influential muhajirs and a party of Ansar who did not entirely agree with his appointment either (Sahi Bukhari has some details if you wish to read more)

2 - Hz Umar was nominated by Hz Abu Bakar and not chosen by the people.

3 - Hz Umar made a comittee that picked Hz Usman as the Khalifa. Remmember that Ibn Awf, the cousin of Hz Usman, was given a kind of veto power over the other members of the committee that included Imam Ali.

4- For a month or more the seat of Khalifa remained empty and arguments grew inside masjid e Nabawi where people had gathered to chose a leader until mass of people decided to go to Imam Ali house and said not to leave until he accepts the office. I guess they knew that he was the only one who had such tremendous and unmatched personal strength as to be able to handle the situation people found themselves in. Imam Ali reluctantly took it despite the grave situation of the time. However what happened next could be read in the history books. Prophet (saww) had foretold Imam Ali of the hard tests he was to face after his departure and Imam Ali showed great resolve and patience in the worst of times.

[ravage]

Re: Khalifa, the definition, requirement (split from What is Pakistan thread in PA).

it is impractical and silly. it is a pipe dream and you know it even before you consider pros and cons, so whats the point?

remember a religiously elected ruler of a country like Pakistan is NOT a khalifa in (sunni) Islamic terms i.e. God's vicegerent etc, since there 50 other equally Muslim countries where the guy has no jurisdiction.

[AikPakistani]

Astaghfirallah, Allah help you people.

I have stated before, as I will now, that the way to help Pakistan is to rejuvinate the faith of the people in Allah swt and to help rebuild the society with the economic system of Allah swt, charity system of Allah swt, political system of Allah swt, and the social system of Allah swt. Islam isnot only a rleigion, it is a way of life. If you reject this, you are not truly Muslim.

Pakistan is a Muslim country, not a secular country, it was made for Muslims. If you don't like Islam, go to India. You will get along fine over there.

So what kinda khilafat you would like in Pakistan? Sunni khilafat, Wahabi khilafat, shia khilafat, qadyani khilafat, agha khani khilafat, …..

What is the guarantee that the ruling party would not hang all the people who say Ya before Mohammad, or recite durood some other ways. Would all sects have to keep the designated length of beard. What if the length of beard varies from sect to sect. What is the guarantee that there wouldn’t be bloodshed over beard issues? Who would ruling party side with, people who attach Hazrat and RaziAllatalah anho with Yazid’s name or people who mourn for prophet’s family for two and a half months. What if I liked to follow my Mullah instead of the king mullah. Would king mullah spare me?

[desert_bird]

salaam desertbird,

The declaration at Ghadeer is defenately not a lie as it is one of the most narrated event of the Islamic history. You may wish to disagree with the interpretion of the event which you have a right to. For details you could search this forum and there has been plenty of debates about it before.

Secondly, you said that Quran does not mention anything explicitly as to how to chose a leader. I beg to differ as Quran clearly says that the right to chose a leader belongs to Allah (swt) alone and not the people (Sura Qasas 28:68). For example, story of Talut is in reasonable detail in the Quran (Sura Baqarah: 246, 247). Hence creation and legislation is by Allah's will alone and man has no choice in either of these fields.

Thirdly, i would like to clarify the methods you mentioned were used to chose the first 4 khalifas:

1- Hz Abu Bakar was nominated at Saqifa not by majority but by just 3 influential muhajirs and a party of Ansar who did not entirely agree with his appointment either (Sahi Bukhari has some details if you wish to read more)

2 - Hz Umar was nominated by Hz Abu Bakar and not chosen by the people.

3 - Hz Umar made a comittee that picked Hz Usman as the Khalifa. Remmember that Ibn Awf, the cousin of Hz Usman, was given a kind of veto power over the other members of the committee that included Imam Ali.

4- For a month or more the seat of Khalifa remained empty and arguments grew inside masjid e Nabawi where people had gathered to chose a leader until mass of people decided to go to Imam Ali house and said not to leave until he accepts the office. I guess they knew that he was the only one who had such tremendous and unmatched personal strength as to be able to handle the situation people found themselves in. Imam Ali reluctantly took it despite the grave situation of the time. However what happened next could be read in the history books. Prophet (saww) had foretold Imam Ali of the hard tests he was to face after his departure and Imam Ali showed great resolve and patience in the worst of times.

OK Ramesha, i agree :)

We cannot change each other views nor can change this thread to usual shia-suuni thread, copy pasting, ansar, answering ansat etc etc .

@ravage

it is impractical and silly. it is a pipe dream and you know it even before you consider pros and cons, so whats the point?

remember a religiously elected ruler of a country like Pakistan is NOT a khalifa in (sunni) Islamic terms i.e. God's vicegerent etc, since there 50 other equally Muslim countries where the guy has no jurisdiction

OK Sir ,u can call it a religious government but not Khalifa . But what other 56 countries do, do they all want to be united and ruled by a single Caliph, its impossible, even Arabs cannot be united what to speak others. Its only hapens near Qiyaamah when Imam Mahdi will come, otherwise i dont see any single Caliph in whole muslim world
Regards

[Das_Reich]

Re: Khalifa, the definition, requirement (split from What is Pakistan thread in PA).

ammar man u r totally right what to be expected of someone whose namesake gave his life for khilafat i.e ammar b yasir]

but pakistan was not formed on theological basis , but its movement was promoted largely by secular minded muslims , its only much later the religious parties jumped on the bandwagon
first we need unity amongst muslim states only then a khalifa is a practical option.
also we need to think of khalifa as "deputy of rasulallah" not as a "viceroy of God" thats a corrupted interpretation of the nature of khilafat

[burqaposhx]

Discussion of Khilafat in Pakistan is just a waste of time and in fact really dangerous for our country.

Had it remained academic discussion, things were OK. At most it would have earned ridicule from the mainstream.

But the religious fundamentalists have already abused this noble concept and started a civil war in Pakistan. Don't you know how many tribal maulanas aspire to be Khalifahs. Look what Sufi Muhammad did back in the 1990s. Look what his nephew is doing right now. They are killing innocent Pakistanis and so many of our precious soldiers have lost their lives.

Let's stop this discussion and ask ourselves a simple question. "Have we the Pakistani Muslims prepared ourselves for a righteous society"? The answer is clearly no!

If you look at Mohammad pbuh's life, he was known as Sadiq, Ameen, and Raheem BEFORE declaring Islam.

In modern day life is there ONE Islamic country let alone Pakistan where majority of people are:

1. Sadiq - Truthful to the highest degree
2. Ameen - Trustworthy to the highest degree
3. Raheem - Tolerant and forgiving to the highest degree.

If you as a society cannot even fulfill the basic three pre-requisites of being a Muslim, then whey the heck even talk about much more complicated concepts such as Khalifa etc.

Even if you want a Khalifa to be there for "simple guidance" and not for a true governance, it is really difficult and in fact very corrosive to even pick someone for even simple guidance.

Here is a proposal for the Sunnis in Pakistan. Let's declare Imam Khamenei as our Khalifah. I mean the guy has a good beard. He is a direct decedent of Mohammad pbuh. He knows an ayah or two.

Let's pick him as Khalifa and move on with building or rebuilding Pakistan. But if you hate to see a Shia as your Khalifa, then all this talk about Big Brother Khalifa of ALL muslims is just balloon filled with hot air that is ready to pop with a single pin prick.

[USResident]

Re: Khalifa, the definition, requirement (split from What is Pakistan thread in PA).

Ammar, most of your discussion is widely obtuse and not very practical. You should also stop accusing people aboout weakness of Iman. Please think before you talk.

First of all the verses you have quoted do not refer to the system of Khilafat but refer to Adam AS being created as the vicegerant on earth in the sense that he will establish and rule by the wisdom and laws provided by Allah SWT. Now that same principle is definitely to be embodied in in the one who becomes the Khalifa on the muslim ummah. I can understand you perhaps have loe for reviving the old Islamic terminology used for the ruler and leader of the muslim ummah but it is in no way different than a head of a state. Muslims countries are fragmented and there are boundaries between them and not just geographical. It would be nice to see all muslim countries unite as one ummah and geographies have no importance between them anymore. It would be nice if unite to enforce commonality in more than just our religious beliefs, maybe trade, currency and other aspects that can be united.

The bottomline for striving for a Khalifa or leader even within a small group of muslim people should be the same as it originally was i.e. it should be based on the piety of the person firstly, statesmanship next. Today our leaders as chosen on popularity and resoucerfulness not the criteria according to which Allah SWT judges us.

If you analyze the first four Khilafat periods, you’ll each one was indeed among the most pious among their generation and companions though they all differed in their statesmanship and approach. The first two Abu Bakr RA and Umar RA had state advisors who were loyal to the progression of the state which is what complimented their Khalifas whereas the latter two Uthman RA and Ali RA though pious and learned suffered much because of the lack of good state advisors. Back then the qualities of statesmaship, economy and wars was not as complex as it is in todays society and multiple dimensions of every aspect of todays life.

So today just choosing a Khalifa is not the solution to our problems, infact it highlights how unaware you are of what is needed today for muslims and still lost in our past glory. We need quite a bit of change than just having someone we can call Khalifa.

[burqaposhx]

....... ..........So today just choosing a Khalifa is not the solution to our problems, infact it highlights how unaware you are of what is needed today for muslims and still lost in our past glory. We need quite a bit of change than just having someone we can call Khalifa.

Right on! Very well said.

........It would be nice to see all muslim countries unite as one ummah and geographies have no importance between them anymore. It would be nice if unite to enforce commonality in more than just our religious beliefs, maybe trade, currency and other aspects that can be united. .

Again well said.

I'd just a few comments though. If a Muslim from Ghana wants to unite with Pakistan then it may make sense. Why because Ghanians may gain some technical or scientific knowledge or some education scholarships from Pakistani universities.

But it boggles ones mind to see Pakistani dying to unite Islamic countries. Majority of the Muslim countries are dirt poor and cannot offer Pakistan any trade benefits.

Even if some idealist wants to unite for the sake of unity, it still needs Godly powers. Why? because we can't even unite our own country. The very Islamists who jump up and down in the name of Ummah are at this very moment killing and suicide bombing Pakistanis and destroying our infrastructure.

FYI. Modern day world is not united about religion and it never was. It was always the economic interest that brought people together in a cohesive way. This is true long before Islam showed up in the religious scene, and it has been so even now.

Even as individuals are immigrating to other countries regardless of the prevalent religion.

Most of the posters on this forum are either from Pakistan or from US and UK. Saudis and Kuwaities do not even give resident permit to Pakistanis (without strict conditions) let alone citizenship.

And yet our youth is so much romantic about the Khalifas, the Islamic brotherhood, and the unity fraud.

[Das_Reich]

Re: Khalifa, the definition, requirement (split from What is Pakistan thread in PA).

just because in todays world there are many problems that impede us from achieveing a caliphate does not mean we abandon the ideals....

politics is an integral part of islam , without it islam is incomplete

[diwana]

Discussion of Khilafat in Pakistan is just a waste of time and in fact really dangerous for our country.

Had it remained academic discussion, things were OK. At most it would have earned ridicule from the mainstream.

But the religious fundamentalists have already abused this noble concept and started a civil war in Pakistan. Don't you know how many tribal maulanas aspire to be Khalifahs. Look what Sufi Muhammad did back in the 1990s. Look what his nephew is doing right now. They are killing innocent Pakistanis and so many of our precious soldiers have lost their lives.

Let's stop this discussion and ask ourselves a simple question. "Have we the Pakistani Muslims prepared ourselves for a righteous society"? The answer is clearly no!

If you look at Mohammad pbuh's life, he was known as Sadiq, Ameen, and Raheem BEFORE declaring Islam.

In modern day life is there ONE Islamic country let alone Pakistan where majority of people are:

1. Sadiq - Truthful to the highest degree
2. Ameen - Trustworthy to the highest degree
3. Raheem - Tolerant and forgiving to the highest degree.

If you as a society cannot even fulfill the basic three pre-requisites of being a Muslim, then whey the heck even talk about much more complicated concepts such as Khalifa etc.

Even if you want a Khalifa to be there for "simple guidance" and not for a true governance, it is really difficult and in fact very corrosive to even pick someone for even simple guidance.

Here is a proposal for the Sunnis in Pakistan. Let's declare Imam Khamenei as our Khalifah. I mean the guy has a good beard. He is a direct decedent of Mohammad pbuh. He knows an ayah or two.

Let's pick him as Khalifa and move on with building or rebuilding Pakistan. But if you hate to see a Shia as your Khalifa, then all this talk about Big Brother Khalifa of ALL muslims is just balloon filled with hot air that is ready to pop with a single pin prick.

Good.

Don't know about khaminee being khalifa. But nothing wrong with that if someone just moves beyond useless discussion at the present time.

What is needed you explained very well.

[diwana]

Right on! Very well said.

Again well said.

I'd just a few comments though. If a Muslim from Ghana wants to unite with Pakistan then it may make sense. Why because Ghanians may gain some technical or scientific knowledge or some education scholarships from Pakistani universities.

But it boggles ones mind to see Pakistani dying to unite Islamic countries. Majority of the Muslim countries are dirt poor and cannot offer Pakistan any trade benefits.

Even if some idealist wants to unite for the sake of unity, it still needs Godly powers. Why? because we can't even unite our own country. The very Islamists who jump up and down in the name of Ummah are at this very moment killing and suicide bombing Pakistanis and destroying our infrastructure.

FYI. Modern day world is not united about religion and it never was. It was always the economic interest that brought people together in a cohesive way. This is true long before Islam showed up in the religious scene, and it has been so even now.

Even as individuals are immigrating to other countries regardless of the prevalent religion.

Most of the posters on this forum are either from Pakistan or from US and UK. Saudis and Kuwaities do not even give resident permit to Pakistanis (without strict conditions) let alone citizenship.

And yet our youth is so much romantic about the Khalifas, the Islamic brotherhood, and the unity fraud.

Agree.

Aur Bhi Gham Hain Zamaane Mein Khilafat Ke Siwa.

Arabs do not respect Pakistan or Pakistani awam. A lot of them are very nice and humble but their laws and general attitude smells of racism and bigotry.

I must say, most of Europe and North America is united due to common religion and fear of muslims again ruling the world. (Turkey bechara tries hard to be in big boys club.) I remember the movie Khuda Ke Liye in which Anwar Maqsood wrote and spoken by US girl: "You are dangerous, you stay minimum 800 years wherever you go" Something like that.

[ramesha]

^Your views are realist. Trouble is that as soon as you mention these issues to the people supporting the idea of khilafat, you are instantly labelled as a "western-ist" or a "pessimist". I feel that if we are to go anyway near the idea of the establishment of the true Islamic values we will have to confront these issues first orelse the future will be no brighter.

[diwana]

^Your views are realist. Trouble is that as soon as you mention these issues to the people supporting the idea of khilafat, you are instantly labelled as a "western-ist" or a "pessimist". I feel that if we are to go anyway near the idea of the establishment of the true Islamic values we will have to confront these issues first orelse the future will be no brighter.

Thanks if you pointed to my post.

We also should not label those who talk about khilafat as extremists or whatever. They see the solution of problem in different way which is long, almost impossible and un-practical.

Shorter and effective rout is to just do the right thing individually and not wait for some god-sent khalifa to come and tell us what to do. It does not take a 'khalifa' to pray, give zakat or help others.

Nowhere it is indicated to have khalifa to do all the good deeds or live in peace and harmony among ourselves or with others.

If we place morality and honesty infront and ahead of our actions we can achieve both worldly and 'unworldly' success.

[ramesha]

Re: Khalifa, the definition, requirement (split from What is Pakistan thread in PA).

^ I agree with what you have said must be done on an individual level. But surely Quran and the Prophet (saww) must possess a solution about formation of the government!

[diwana]

^ I agree with what you have said must be done on an individual level. But surely Quran and the Prophet (saww) must possess a solution about formation of the government!

Yes but who should do that. Also no structural detail of a govenment is advised in religion. Whatever works for current time and whatever benefits individuals.

Who will make government? Peolpe will do it and they need to be reformed individually.

Waiting for Khalifa or Imam Mehdi to do what is already been told is wrong approach.

Waiting for tomorrow to do good work makes no sense.

One has to make today the best day since it is not only today, but future of yesterday and past of tomorrow.

[Das_Reich]

Agree.

Aur Bhi Gham Hain Zamaane Mein Khilafat Ke Siwa.

Arabs do not respect Pakistan or Pakistani awam. A lot of them are very nice and humble but their laws and general attitude smells of racism and bigotry.

I must say, most of Europe and North America is united due to common religion and fear of muslims again ruling the world. (Turkey bechara tries hard to be in big boys club.) I remember the movie Khuda Ke Liye in which Anwar Maqsood wrote and spoken by US girl: "You are dangerous, you stay minimum 800 years wherever you go" Something like that.

hardly , europe knows that arab and muslim world dont pose any threat whatsoever to them ...muslims cant even establish islam in their own lands how can they rule the world ?

they are united because they have seen the destructive effects of 2 wars in 50yrs

we shudnt take political lessons from a upstart like anwar maqsood or anonymous european girl

[ramesha]

....Also no structural detail of a govenment is advised in religion. Whatever works for current time and whatever benefits individuals.......

If by religion you mean 'Islam' then could i please request you to back your statement from perferablly Quran or atleast a hadith?

[Das_Reich]

Thanks if you pointed to my post.

We also should not label those who talk about khilafat as extremists or whatever. They see the solution of problem in different way which is long, almost impossible and un-practical.

Shorter and effective rout is to just do the right thing individually and not wait for some god-sent khalifa to come and tell us what to do. It does not take a 'khalifa' to pray, give zakat or help others.

Nowhere it is indicated to have khalifa to do all the good deeds or live in peace and harmony among ourselves or with others.

If we place morality and honesty infront and ahead of our actions we can achieve both worldly and 'unworldly' success.

so islam is only namaz, roza zakat for you ?

[diwana]

hardly , europe knows that arab and muslim world dont pose any threat whatsoever to them ...muslims cant even establish islam in their own lands how can they rule the world ?

they are united because they have seen the destructive effects of 2 wars in 50yrs

we shudnt take political lessons from a upstart like anwar maqsood or anonymous european girl

Hope you are right.

[diwana]

If by religion you mean 'Islam' then could i please request you to back your statement from perferablly Quran or atleast a hadith?

Tell me please which kind of government structure is advised in islam?

Khalifa/ Kingdom/dictatorship/Shura/democracy or socialism or some unknown type?

more importantly why there is no harmony in islamic countries in making a government which is dictated in islam?