Ok.. We can give a commitment that India will take its army back once Pakistan gets China to withdraw its army from the land that was gifted to China by Pakistan.
For all the tears that is being shed for the Kashmiris I think it is time that some tears are also shed for the Pakistanis who were stranded in Bangladesh..
I agree... But the Biharis are living in Bangladesh, and no one is torturing them, murdering them in "encounters," putting them under curfew, etc etc... There is no equivalence between the Biharis and Kashmiris. Thousands of Kashmiris have died at the hands of Indian security forces.
If the problem is with China, then the Kashmiris would be protesting the Chinese. As it so happens, the Kashmiris are only protesting against the state of India. Trying to deflect the issue by citing the Chinese wont change the facts on the ground. The main villain here is the Indian state.
The UN resolution says that both countries must halt all aggression and hold a referendum... Pakistan is ready for it, the people of Kashmir are ready for it. Why are the Indian so obstinate? Dont you feel like this is an immoral and unjust thing that your country does? If you are a genuine patriot who believes in the principles that your country was founded on, then you cant in good conscience support the occupation of Kashmir without the consent of her people. Isnt it time you people emulated Gandhi instead of just using his image to pay with and paying lip service to his legacy...
Exceptions are not examples. There are thousands of Muslims who are extremely successful and have a good life in India. It is very easy to scream discrimination at the drop of a hat. It is like the three ladies who screamed discrimination when they were asked to leave the restaurant in US by the Muslim owner.
There are thousands of Blacks who are successful in America, but that doesnt mean there isnt racism. Likewise, we have successful Hindus, Christians and Ahmadis in Pakistan. Doesn't mean there isnt discrimination against them...
Personally I dont have any interest in pointing out problems in India. I only mentioned it because I thought it was worth mentioning in this particular context. I didnt even bother to discuss it with said Doctor. Just something he mentioned in passing when I asked him why he didnt just go back to India to practice, since he's having a hard time getting residency here.
Good that you get the point. While you are at it, also please get down from the moral high horse and understand reality. Discrimination exists everywhere and nobody denies that more needs to be done, but to keep stressing the point that discrimination exists only in India is a part of the strategy to sustain oneself on this site. :D
I should think its rather obvious that discrimination exists everywhere... Kind of goes without saying. The high horse would be an Indian who thinks it doesnt exist in India, or its insignificant.
However, it occurs to me that you are not a Muslim.. So how can you consider yourself a spokesperson for a group you dont belong to ? You seem to make assumptions about Indian Muslims just as you (as a country) do about the feelings of Kashmiris.
Take its from the Kashmiris themselves India. Leave Kashmir for the sake of all parties involved. India leaving Kashmir means not only peace for Kashmiris but peace between Pakistan and India, and peace in India with itself.
I didn't state that discrimination exists only in India. I simply stated that there is discrimination against Muslims in India. Not sure what that has to do with a horse.
While you are at it, maybe you could list out the countries where there is rampant discrimination. Horse is something that you could sit on and counsel people on how to run a country.
I agree... But the Biharis are living in Bangladesh, and no one is torturing them, murdering them in "encounters," putting them under curfew, etc etc... There is no equivalence between the Biharis and Kashmiris. Thousands of Kashmiris have died at the hands of Indian security forces.
That is because they do not go around creating trouble like bombing civilians, throwing stones at the police etc. Fact of the matter is that they are confined to ghettos without the basic rights.
[quote]
If the problem is with China, then the Kashmiris would be protesting the Chinese. As it so happens, the Kashmiris are only protesting against the state of India. Trying to deflect the issue by citing the Chinese wont change the facts on the ground. The main villain here is the Indian state.
[/quote]
I thought you had better knowledge on world affairs. China deals with separatists in its own ways.
[quote]
The UN resolution says that both countries must halt all aggression and hold a referendum... Pakistan is ready for it, the people of Kashmir are ready for it. Why are the Indian so obstinate? Dont you feel like this is an immoral and unjust thing that your country does? If you are a genuine patriot who believes in the principles that your country was founded on, then you cant in good conscience support the occupation of Kashmir without the consent of her people. Isnt it time you people emulated Gandhi instead of just using his image to pay with and paying lip service to his legacy...
[/QUOTE]
My question was simple. UN resolution says that the entire Kashmir area needs to be demilitarized. Can you get your Chinese friends to vacate the area. Also if Pakistan was so much concerned about Kashmiris, why did Pakistan gift China part of the land.
Let us for a second imagine that the Kashmir issue is solved. Do you believe that hawks from both sides would allow peace to prevail. They will find means to create new issues.
There are thousands of Blacks who are successful in America, but that doesnt mean there isnt racism. Likewise, we have successful Hindus, Christians and Ahmadis in Pakistan. Doesn't mean there isnt discrimination against them...
Personally I dont have any interest in pointing out problems in India. I only mentioned it because I thought it was worth mentioning in this particular context. I didnt even bother to discuss it with said Doctor. Just something he mentioned in passing when I asked him why he didnt just go back to India to practice, since he's having a hard time getting residency here.
In India at least there is no institutionalized discrimination. All Indians have equal rights in the eyes of the law.
Can you say the same about Pakistan.
A person who is used to the comforts of the first world would find it difficult to adjust to life back home. Discrimination might not even be the reason. Lack of infrastructure might be the reason. You did not even discuss it with the doctor, you just assumed that it was discrimination.
I should think its rather obvious that discrimination exists everywhere... Kind of goes without saying. The high horse would be an Indian who thinks it doesnt exist in India, or its insignificant.
However, it occurs to me that you are not a Muslim.. So how can you consider yourself a spokesperson for a group you dont belong to ? You seem to make assumptions about Indian Muslims just as you (as a country) do about the feelings of Kashmiris.
You make a very good point. I am not a Muslim and I cannot claim to be a spokesperson of the group. I was born into a minority community. I am not a Hindu. I know how I have been treated in this country. I have traveled across the country and seen first hand the kind of benefits the Kashmiris enjoy. That gives me some right to talk about it while you ...
While you are at it, maybe you could list out the countries where there is rampant discrimination. Horse is something that you could sit on and counsel people on how to run a country.
Ok. I will do that when I know what that has to do with this discussion.
World is now knowing about struggle in Kashmir Reuters TV @ReutersTV](https://twitter.com/ReutersTV)
A young generation of militants is on the rise in northern India
That would help to give a perspective on the kind of discrimination faced by Kashmiri Muslims in Kashmir.
Sorry I don't get it.
The thread discusses Kashmiri Muslims have been persecuted. Brining up instances of discrimination elsewhere is relevant only if someone claims such discrimination happens only in India.
The simple point is that discrimination exists everywhere and if everyone who feels discriminated takes up arms and creates havoc there would be uncontrolled chaos across the world. Since you are widely traveled and have volunteered to do it, it would be helpful to understand the levels of discrimination across the world and see if the Kashmiri Muslims face discrimination to that level that warrants them taking up arms.
The simple point is that discrimination exists everywhere and if everyone who feels discriminated takes up arms and creates havoc there would be uncontrolled chaos across the world. Since you are widely traveled and have volunteered to do it, it would be helpful to understand the levels of discrimination across the world and see if the Kashmiri Muslims face discrimination to that level that warrants them taking up arms.
Living under foreign occupation is discrimination enough to warrant freedom struggle.
I am not condoning taking up arms. However, why are they in this situation? It is my understanding plebiscite was promised. Why have not they been allowed to determine their own destiny.
What moral authority does someone have to condemn them? Why is history being ignored?
The above was not even part of the discussion. Someone brought up Kashmiris were being discriminated against. A fair person would simply acknowledge it. And will not say - but others do it too.
To simply say a popukation is wrong without bringing into the discussion the history and the violence inflicted on the popukation is not honest. Since I don't know you, I can simply state in general I am not surprised. The media does a great job of presenting only one side. And the Patriots buy all of it.
Proud to be riding the horse, if that makes you happy
I am not condoning taking up arms. However, why are they in this situation? It is my understanding plebiscite was promised. Why have not they been allowed to determine their own destiny.
What moral authority does someone have to condemn them? Why is history being ignored?
The above was not even part of the discussion. Someone brought up Kashmiris were being discriminated against. A fair person would simply acknowledge it. And will not say - but others do it too.
To simply say a popukation is wrong without bringing into the discussion the history and the violence inflicted on the popukation is not honest. Since I don't know you, I can simply state in general I am not surprised. The media does a great job of presenting only one side. And the Patriots buy all of it.
Proud to be riding the horse, if that makes you happy
Maybe it would have been better if the understanding of history was better. For plebiscite to happen, certain conditions need to be met. These conditions cannot be met at this juncture. If people are allowed to break away at whims and fancies of a certain group of individuals, there cannot be peace in the world.
The problem with the so called liberals is that they try to understand each situation by looking just at the immediate history and forming opinions based on some preconceived notions.I am not saying this about anyone in particular but about people who try to act liberal. Historically there have been too many wrongs. It is not possible to correct every wrong that has happened in history.
Good to know that you are comfortable riding the horse since you were probable not clear on what horse you were riding on initially.:)
Maybe it would have been better if the understanding of history was better. For plebiscite to happen, certain conditions need to be met. These conditions cannot be met at this juncture. If people are allowed to break away at whims and fancies of a certain group of individuals, there cannot be peace in the world.
The problem with the so called liberals is that they try to understand each situation by looking just at the immediate history and forming opinions based on some preconceived notions.I am not saying this about anyone in particular but about people who try to act liberal. Historically there have been too many wrongs. It is not possible to correct every wrong that has happened in history.
Good to know that you are comfortable riding the horse since you were probable not clear on what horse you were riding on initially.:)
Maybe it would have been better if the understanding of history was better. For plebiscite to happen, certain conditions need to be met. These conditions cannot be met at this juncture. If people are allowed to break away at whims and fancies of a certain group of individuals, there cannot be peace in the world.
The problem with the so called liberals is that they try to understand each situation by looking just at the immediate history and forming opinions based on some preconceived notions.I am not saying this about anyone in particular but about people who try to act liberal. Historically there have been too many wrongs. It is not possible to correct every wrong that has happened in history.
Good to know that you are comfortable riding the horse since you were probable not clear on what horse you were riding on initially.:)
First of all,Canada and UK have both held referendums on the separation of some part of their country in the past. They behaved in a civilized manner. They didnt send in their army and hold people at gun point. Also, many countries have split up amicably, and the world didnt come crashing to a halt.
The history of Indian occupation in Kashmir is only 60 years old.. The English control over Scotland was over hundereds of years... If the English and Scots could correct centuries of wrongs, then India can correct decades of wrong. Unfortunately, India isnt the UK or Canada.. It seems the underlying forces compelling India are a deep sense of insecurity, and inadequacy.
Second, Kashmiris arent choosing to leave Kashmir on a whim. They never choose to be Indian to begin with. The Indian state, through the sheer force of its military, is able to force these people to be Indian. Your point is irrelevant to Kashmir.
Lastly, you have no moral standing on the matter. The people dont want to be Indian. Give them their due rights. Simple as that. Your never going to truly have Kashmir, it will only remain Indian at gunpoint, and in the Indian imagination. These people will never accept India or truly believe they are Indian. Your only fooling yourself.
You make a very good point. I am not a Muslim and I cannot claim to be a spokesperson of the group. I was born into a minority community. I am not a Hindu. I know how I have been treated in this country. I have traveled across the country and seen first hand the kind of benefits the Kashmiris enjoy. That gives me some right to talk about it while you ...
Yes the Kashmiris enjoy having the Indian army occupy their homeland. Apparently, those "benefits" havent diminished the Kashmiri will to fight for their freedom. Either your ignorant of the ground realities they face or their ungrateful... Either way, they have every right to choose to not be Indian. Its their home, not yours.
