Kashmir Again, What to do?

Re: Kashmir Again, What to do?

Its nice that there is no institutionalized discrimination. little good that would do the Dalit couple that was murdered recently over 20 rupees.
And sure there is discrimination in Pakistan, but this isnt about Pakistan, its was about India. Besides, if Pakistan is the standard by which to judge India, then well, you have issues.

And perhaps its not 'institutionalized" but your govt sure doesnt seem to bothered by it.

Re: Kashmir Again, What to do?

lol Irony...
Kashmiris are fighting an occupation Army. No different from when the Indians were fighting the British. Ironic that your using the same line of reasoning that the British did to justify their violence towards the Indians...

If your army weren't torturing, murdering and imprisoning the Kashmiris, they wouldnt need to fight you. The biharis arent being murdered, imprisoned, or tortured by Bangladesh.

There are Kashmiris protesting the Chinese? news to me... LOL. Your the Donald Trump of GupShup!
News flash, the Kashmiris are only protesting India.. Wonder why?

Sure we can get our Chinese friends to vacate the area. And we will also insist the Indians depart with their Army, as will the Pakistan Army (although most of the Kashmiris on the Pakistan consider that to be their own Army). Now if only the Indians would stop refering to the place as "an integral part of India" we could get this show started.

The part given to China was through negotiations on the boundry between Kashmir and China. That boundary has been debated since the 1800's. Since the Kashmiri's do not have their own govt to negotiate with the Chinese, it falls on the Pakistan govt to negotiate on their behalf. The settlement between pak and china however acknowledges that its is temporary, and subject to change pending a final settlement on the issue of Kashmir as a whole. I suspect its also for security purposes. Difficult to prevent Indians from capturing it as they did Siachin. Pakistan would prefer to focus its attention on the populated centers of Kashmir and defend that against Indian aggression and allow the Chinese to defend the part they have. Its our abiding concern for the Kashmiris that we allowed our allies in China to defend that part of Kashmir as otherwise it would likely have come under Indian control. Better an ally then the enemy.

Re: Kashmir Again, What to do?

There is no other issue preventing peace between India and Pakistan other then Kashmir. The hawks exist because of Kashmir. Pakistan's only gripe with India is over Kashmir. Pakistan has no interest in any part of India, its not trying to take over Punjab or Rajasthan. Pakistan has no inherent hate for India or Indians.
India is in the wrong on Kashmir. It needs to end its occupation and hold the plebiscite. Lame excuses aside. Move on already.

Re: Kashmir Again, What to do?

Why is it so difficult to be honest? And why is honesty considered unpatriotic? Right is right. Wrong is wrong.

This is true not just in the are of politics but also in personal dealings. It is almost as if the relatives back home live in alternate reality. Where consensus trumps truth.

Re: Kashmir Again, What to do?

A piece from history
[RIGHT]صرف پاکستان پیپلزپارٹی شہیدبھٹوکےدورسےکشمیرکی آزادی اوررائےشماری کی بات کرتی ہےاوراب بلاول بھٹواپنےناناکی بات دہراتاہے
بھٹو صاحب کی تقریر ضرورسنیں[/RIGHT]
https://fbexternal-a.akamaihd.net/safe_image.php?d=AQAxZ96iCqacaeGt&w=158&h=158&url=fbstaging%3A%2F%2Fgraph.facebook.com%2Fstaging_resources%2FMDExMTI3ODY2ODIzOTU1MDc5OjE5MjA5NDA0MTc%3D&cfs=1&upscale=1(9)Zulfikar Ali Bhutto%27s Speech At Gugrat On Occupied Kashmir Issue.wmv](http://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fbhutto.org%2FAudio%2F(9)Zulfikar%2520Ali%2520Bhutto%2527s%2520speech%2520at%2520Gugrat%2520on%2520occupied%2520Kashmir%2520Issue.wmv.mp3&h=kAQFWbnTx&enc=AZMlV3WzsLMivavHazGZHyL7F6yiM8afxkIfaUmopdtD8IorxnAJGOYQ5UFTGdDypJZ8vuhmdiPdvyn3EnWGuBPzvGYtSGiZltbsvv5D5MzdxjYovMKRjbYFO5VcQfeAzvf_QawdnpQLze8fncvSRskjHfZ8dTXVuXryOrd2Q8TjYHuXX2CLt4hht8XzjCUHjCsNpZhXyjDcc_hYR4G1oycc&s=1)

Re: Kashmir Again, What to do?

It seems alright when you set such low standards for yourself. :smack:.

Did you read the follow-up news my friend.

Re: Kashmir Again, What to do?

Traitorous people need to be dealt with according to the law. Biharis are subjugated and exist without the basic rights. If they go against the law of the land, they know how they will be dealt with.


In your haste to respond to my messages, you did not read my reply. Please understand on how the Chinese government deals with separatists.


: Please get your Chinese friends to vacate the area first and then let us talk:D

There could have been some representation from the Kashmiri people in the negotiation with the Chinese government. What gave Pakistan the right to negotiate on behalf of the Kashmiris. Why did Pakistan unilaterally decide on behalf of the Kashmiri people.

Re: Kashmir Again, What to do?

Good discussion Med11. I understand your perspective, respect your opinion and I think it is time that we agree to disagree.

To summarize my Point of View..
1) Kashmir is a thorn in India-Pakistan relations. I do not believe that it is the only thorn. Hawks from both sides do not want the issue to be resolved since it furthers their own agenda
2) Mistakes have happened on Kashmir front.. Sending in army soldiers and refusing to accept them as soldiers is not going to help matters. This has happened multiple times. (1947 and 1999 on a large scale)
3) Fomenting terrorism is not going to help either nation. If you rear snakes, do not expect the snake to bite only the neighbor
4) Peace has to prevail. Concessions have to be made from both sides. Considering the larger public opinion in both countries, I do not see this happening in the near immediate future

Re: Kashmir Again, What to do?

Traitor implies the Kashmiris owe their loyalty to India. Kashmiris never choose to be Indian, hence they ow no loyalty to India, and hence are not traitors. They are a people under occupation. Biharis have no relevance to this conversation.

Chinese dont need to respond to Kashmiri seperatists since there are no sepretists to deal with.. The part of Kashmir that China controls is essentially uninhabited. Check the population of the regions under Chinese control. The Himalayan glaciers aren't ideal for crops or people...Yes?

The area under Chinese control was never formally a part of Kashmir to begin with. There has never been a mutually agreed upon border between Kashmir and China, except in the minds of Indian's (and the British to some extent). Secondly. Pending a formal agreement on Kashmir between all parties involved, it is agreed that the border between Kashmir and China will be revisited. Your trying to deflect by referencing China is a bit sad. You know you have no argument so you repeat these old talking points. We've heard the same tired old Indian talking point verbatim by multiple Indian posters on this forum before you arrived. Please ask your govt for a new script.

:)... When it suites you, suddenly the will of the Kashmiri people is paramount! Im sorry, but you're really clutching at straws here. How do you know there weren't representatives from Kashmir? Azad Kashmir is is autonomous, which has its own government. However, Foreign affairs, defense, etc is left to Pakistan. That being said, the final settlement of the border with China, which I remind you is not a formally recognized border as neither the British nor the Chinese ever agreed upon it, can still be renegotiated pending a final settlement to the overall Kashmir situation. The 1962 agreement between Pakistan and China, recognized the border in accordance to the Macartney-MacDonald line of 1893 which put Aksia Chin and the part on the Pakistan side as being within China.

Unlike India, which despite not having any genuine claim over the region still calls it an Indian territory, Pakistan still recognizes Kashmir as a disputed territory. And at the end of the day, most Kashmiris still support Pakistan while protesting India. Go figure.

Re: Kashmir Again, What to do?

Unfortunately, the obstinate nature of the Indian side coupled with a refusal to acknowledge basic reality poisons any meanful relations between Pakistan and India.

  1. I cant think of any other thorns, can you?

  2. How about sending in an actual army, illegally occupying a place, and then arrogantly pretending that your some how morally justified in holding millions of people who obviously dont want to be a part of your country as hostage... Then telling others THEY are in the wrong.. That's ok with you?!?!

  3. Pakistan isnt the first country to use such proxies. That being said, the current bout of tension is due exclusively to Indian incompetence in dealing with the Kashmiri population...Clearly, terrorizing civilians with you army isnt winning you much support. How many times will you need to be bitten?

  4. Yes concessions have to be made. The problem is not among Pakistanis, its among Indians. Pakistanis have generally come to terms with the situations. Indians have married the issue with ultra-nationalism and so to them its a zero-sum game. Indias govt could help the situation if they stopped calling it an "integral" part and recognize what it truly is. You cant be for negotiations and compromise, while fomenting nationalist sentiments at the same time. You can understand why Pakistanis dont trust the Indian govt. on the one hand you say your will negotiate, while on the other you claim the entire area is non negotiable. So whats you position?

Clearly your govt, both current and past have used the Kashmir issue for their own political ends. They have complicated the situation even further by turning it into an issue of national pride and ego, and made a negotiated resolution next to immpossible.

Re: Kashmir Again, What to do?

I dont set Pakistan’s standards. If only they would make me the pm. That being said, Pakistanis never claim to be the pillars of justice and human rights.. Most sane Pakistanis recognize that the country is deeply flawed. But again, this thread is about India not Pakistan. If you want to criticize Pakistan, I will join you on a separate thread.

I have read the follow up news. However, their is still rampant discrimination in India which is ignored. Have you heard of this “Gai Rakshak” movement? They post these vile videos of themselves torturing anyone they suspect of possessing “beef” or harming cows in any way. Invariably that means they attack Muslims and Dalits.

Re: Kashmir Again, What to do?

@Med11, if you honestly believe that it is only India which is the cause of all the troubles in Kashmir, I do not have anything more to say. It helps to understand the situation from a holistic view before forming opinions.

Re: Kashmir Again, What to do?

This is pure plain hypocrisy. You want the world to treat you in an exemplary manner. If others request you to treat them in the same manner as you expect to be treated, there are a lot of reason on why that cannot be done. It is a sort of entitlement which I have never understood.

Remove the log from your own eye before you attempt to take the speck from your brother's eyes. It will help you to see better.

Re: Kashmir Again, What to do?

If you want to discuss Pakistan, then start a new thread. Trying to deflect attention from Indian occupied Kashmir wont work. Pakistan has its flaws, but that doesnt change the fact that India is occupying a state against the will of her people.

Does it occur to you that your Democratic nations entire claim over Kashmir, is based entirely on the "Instrument od accession" signed with the unelected Hindu ruler of a Muslim majority state? Set in any other context, and you would be livid. Imagine if a Muslim ruler were to accede his Hindu majority state to Pakistan (Nizam of Hyderabad choose independence from both but was still invaded by India).

How do you people in good conscience call yourself a Democracy while denying millions of people their basic rights.!?? At least initially India had the pretext of wanting an eventual "plebiscite," but they've abandoned that completely, and currently just simply say "its OURS!"
Its despicable on all levels. India's position is immoral, its hypocritical, and seen objectively is utterly indefensible.

Re: Kashmir Again, What to do?

Pakistans fault is in poor planning and resorting to war... Just cause, poor strategy.
But I dont see how anything could justify India not allowing the people of Kashmir their rights.

The trouble in Kashmir started soon after partition, but everything went to hell after the rigging of the 1989 elections. It was compounded by Indians sending in thousands of soldiers, with little or no oversight to put down an uprising and in the process committing horrendous human rights violations, which continue to this day.

Re: Kashmir Again, What to do?

Not sure whether anyone mentioned the UNSC resolutions on this Issue. But these are it on this issue. Resolution number 47 (1948)

United Nations Documents on UNMOGIP - United Nations Military Observer Group in India and Pakistan

Let me paraphrase the first 9 points / items to be met sequentially to fix this dispute as per UNSC resolutions and highlight the important points in it.

  1. The government Of pakistan should :

a). Secure withdrawal of tribesmen and pakistani nationals
not normally resident who entered for fighting and any furnishing
of material aid to those fighting in the state;

  1. The government Of India should :

a). When it is established to the satisfaction of the commision
set up in accordance with the council’s resolution 39, that
the tribesmen are withdrawing and that arrangements for the
cessation of the the fighting have become effective, put
into operation in consultation with the commission a plan
for withdraing their own forces from J & K and reducing them
progressively to the minimum strength for the support of
civil power in the maintainance of law and order;

b). Make known that the withdrawal is taking place in stages
and announce the completion of each stage;
c). When the Indian forces have been reduced to the minimum strength,
mentioned in (a) above, arrange in consultation with the
commission for the stationing of the remaining forces to be carried
out in accordance with the following principles:
(i) That the presence of troops should not afford any
intimidation or appearance of intimidation to the inhabitants of the state;

(ii) Small number of troops should be retained in forward areas

(iii) Any reserve troops which may be included in the total strength, should
be located within their present base area

3). The government of India should agree that until such time
as the plebiscite administration finds it necessary to exercise the powers of
direction and supervision over the state forces and police, they will be held
in areas to be agreed upon with the plebiscite administrator

4). Recruitment of locals for maintainance of law and order

5). If these local forces are inadequate, both government of Pakistan and India
should make up for it

6). The government of India should undertake to ensure that the
Government of the state invite major political groups to
designate responsible representatives to share equitably and fully
in the conduct of the administration at the miniterial level while the plebiscite is being carried out

7). The Government of India should undertake that there will be established in J & K a plebiscite administration to hold a plebiscite as soon as possible
on the question of the accession of the state to India or pakistan

8). The Government of India should undertake that there will be delegated by the state to the plebiscite Admin such powers as the latter considers necessary
for holding a fair and impartial plebiscite

9). GOI, should at the request of Plebiscite Admin, make available from Indian forces such
assistance as the plebiscite admin may require for the performance of its functions

Re: Kashmir Again, What to do?

If i have to summarize these are the things which have to be met sequentially **in order:

*1. **Pakistan should first withdraw military and non military personals from Azad Kashmir / Pakistan occupied Kashmir
2. India can maintain small number of troops
3. Plebiscite Administrator will be established
4. Give law and order to locals
5. Any help needed by locals, forces could be provided by India / pakistan
6. Special arrangements have to be made to protect minorities
6. Plebiscite will be held
*

Re: Kashmir Again, What to do?

Not sure of Pakistan, But in Indian side of Kashmir, there are no outsiders (except for the military and people who came to work / migrants). Article 370 in Indian Constitution, bars any other Indian to purchase any land in Kashmir. This is what some members in current government want to be repealed.

If pakistan hasn't fulfilled this one basic requirement, to what extent this resolution is applicable?..if at all it can be applied.

Re: Kashmir Again, What to do?

If pakistanis are unhappy with Indian Government for not resolving Kashmir dispute, then they have their own government to blame. Kashmir's ruler had remained neutral, it was pakistani government that "jumped the Gun".

And Indian government's mistake was to rig elections in the end of 1980's, when they were valuing democracy so much.

For me personally, solution is to make LOC international border, or get prepared for one more redrawing of border based on religious lines. Since latter one can be very uncomfortable, would go with the former. Kashmiris might want Azadi, but there are other people from other faiths, who are happy with indian presence. No wonder, Issue is complicated than some imagine!!