Re: If Jinnah had lived…
he does look good in this pic (pork enriched looks :D).. but then budhape mein he looked more like a zinda laash.. he didnt give the impression of somebody who leads a country.. nehru on the other hand looked smart until his death..
Re: If Jinnah had lived…
Thats because he stopped eating pork by that time…If had continued eating bacon strips for breakfast along with gin-tonic he would lived for another 30 years…
Re: If Jinnah had lived…
Nehru looked happy healthy for having stolen the Viceroys wife, something for congressians to be proud of might i say…
Jinnah during his last years had Tuberculosis, which he didnt get treated properly for political reasons; thats bravery, dedication and leadership. all 3 top qualities for any leader of a nation, and that near-dead body of his did more than most robust men in history have ever done…
Re: Jinnah: Q & A (merged)
yeah depends on how u look at it.. for a pakistani like u he is the epitome of what one can hope for in a leader.. for an indian like me he is no better than a ghaddar. nehru also falls in the same category as he too conspired for partition...
Re: Jinnah: Q & A (merged)
desi banda, politics inside, why did you have to post about the way he looks? You should take that back I didnt expect that from you.
Re: Jinnah: Q & A (merged)
dude chill yaar i have nothing personal against jinnah or nehru. i am sorry if u were hurt.
Re: If Jinnah had lived…
what political reasons, would u care to explain?
r u saying it was poltical conspiracy?"
Re: Jinnah: Q & A (merged)
had Jinnah's rivals (Gandhi, Nehru, Mountbatten) known of his medical condition (TB), which in those days almost always lead to death, they would have prolonged the decisions to give the final decisions and accept the reality of what Muslims wanted. everyone knew it was under Jinnah's umbrella that the entire effort was focused. they could have waited for him to die by creating obstacles realizing that once he's gone, the whole issue would take a diff turn...
Re: Jinnah: Q & A (merged)
Ahh Harris, ...u and ur imagination !!
if u have decided that u r a true beliver, then I guess, ur creativity in imaginaing things, have to be supported with historical facts.
I guess Israel had done the same thing that u feared Nehro would have done. What is happening? Have palestinins renounced their rights to Palestine after Arafat's death? What hac actually changed after Arafat's death?
If muslims were so adamant on creating a new Pakistan out of India, then thousands Jinnahs would not have mattered, at all.
Re: Jinnah: Q & A (merged)
lostsoul,
you have an answer in your very mention of the Israel and Palestine-Arafat example. i wonder why you havent realized it yet...but thats exactly whats happening there...or will happen...the Palestinians are ofcourse determined for freedom but will never have another father figure like Arafat...now we cant go into the Arafat debate in this thread now...but everyone knows what Arafat meant for Palestine. if a soluntion, according to what Palestinians really want, with him alive was 50 years away from today now it seems to be a 150 away without him around...ofcourse you may have a diff view but thats how ground reality is and thats what palestinians feel too. the Jinnah Pakistan Nehru Mountbatten situation couldve been the same.
Re: Jinnah: Q & A (merged)
Harris,
u never know what palestinisn would have in time to come, and how soon.
But Arafat's position was very exaggerated in outside world. He lost his prestige a long time ago. Same was the case with Jinnah. He is a king and 'father' in Pakistan's text books only. The very seed of provincialism was fiorst sowed by him, declaring Bengalis need to use Urdu at all costs
It is time, we understand history from people's perspective. Leaders come and go, but as long as the passion remains alive, the nation has some future. If we justify bribery, military dictatorship, and govt control (like most of u do), then there is no future, Jinnah's presence notwithstanding.
Re: Jinnah: Q & A (merged)
Jinnah invisioned a pure democracy and his standing as one of the great leaders of the 20th century is beyond doubt. Pakistan was achieved thru the will power of one man worth a thousand and the embodiment of the collective desire of most of India's then 100 Million Muslims.
Re: Jinnah: Q & A (merged)
And this is the end of evening PTV news?
u rehearsed well, buddy !
Re: Jinnah: Q & A (merged)
That statement of mine is simple fact. You are at liberty to make of it what you wish.
Re: Jinnah: Q & A (merged)
nobody admires jinnah as much as our pakistani text books. we all dont know him, we just read what our pakistani media and text books wants us to know...
a guy who's daughter married a hindu shows a lot how well nourished islamic atmosphere he had in his surroundings ..
in islam someone who marries someoe outside from the ppl of the book and they have intercourse is considered zina .. so from jinnah onwards to his line to date theyve been "zaani" and who knows how many he had in england while studying i mean he did have good looks and was a very very weak muslim ..
to me he was not a hero but just another dude like all the others who struggled for separation.
Re: Jinnah: Q & A (merged)
Slander of the Qaid should result in suspension of posting privalages. His daughter, Dina, married a Parsi-turned Xtian named Neville. The surname escapes me, but I have the book and will check it up. As for J, yes indeed he was a moderate in his personal practice of Islam, but his sense of Islamic unity was quite profound, thats why the Great Leader championed a safe land for Muslims.
As for the situation with Dina, J did break of all contact with her for many years, and only later wrote her, addressing her in no more loving way then "Mrs Wadia"-her married name. (Btw, thus the guy was Neville Wadia). His disapproval was immense.
Plz stop the slander against Jinnah, our noble legal warrior and shining prince, whose face is reflected in the sun and snow that graces Pakistan. We will not allow anti Jinnah elemets to defame our Emperor, this I can assure you.
Re: Jinnah: Q & A (merged)
Yes,
akbarkhan,
you do realize using derogatory terms against the Founder of the nation in public is an offense in Pakistan against Pakistan and Pakistanis. His personal life to him and to everyone theirs. our concern with Quaid is only what he did for us not what his family or he did in private so you can call him whatever in pvt.
Yes Leg,
It was Wadia.
Re: Jinnah: Q & A (merged)
my read of jinnah is that he genuinely believed he had no chance of leading India or the muslims of India, so the only option was to split the country ...once thus formulated, it is quite easy to come up with some noble sounding principles for the country. Though he had the eduation and worldliness necessary and probably was better at politics than his Indian counterparts such Nehru, unfortunately he didn't seem to have had the governance depth to institutionalize much of those principles. The void thus created was easily filled by the religious mafia and the military.
Re: Jinnah: Q & A (merged)
A couple of articles about Ruttie and Dina Wadia. These were posted by some one in the general forum a long time ago.
Story by: Farishta M Dinshaw
Ruttie as she was called affectionately , was bright , gifted and graceful . Although she was only 16 years old when she met Muhammad Ali(Jinnah).... she was intellectually much more mature than other girls of her age. She had diverse interests ranging from romantic poetry to politics . With her maiden aunt she attended all public meetings held in Bombay and was familiar with the movement for swaraj , (home-rule) . She was a fierce supporter of '' India for Indians ,'' and many years later when asked about rumors of Jinnahs possible knighthood and whether she would like to be Lady Jinnah , she snapped that she would rather be separated from her husband than take on an English title. s chateau overlooked Mount Everest in Darjeeling or '' Town of the Thunderbolt '', The town was aptly named considering what was to happen to him there . In spite of the tremendous age difference - she was 16 , he was 40 - he was enchanted with Ruttie`s
In the summer of 1916 , Jinnah decided to escape the Bombay heat by vacationing at the summer home of his client and friend Sir Dinshaw . the Petit
precocious intelligence and beauty , and she in turn was enamoured by Jay as she called him .
*Ruttie's proposal ( (19 April,1918) *
Jinnah approached Sir Dinshaw with a seemingly abstract question about his views on inter-communal marriages . Sir Dinshaw emphatically expressed his opinion that it would be an ideal solution to inter-communal antagonism . Jinnah could not have hoped for a more favourable response, and immediately asked his friend for his daughter's hand in marriage .''Sir Dinshaw was taken aback . He had not realized that his remarks might have serious personal repercussions . He was most indignant, and refused to countenance any such idea which appeared to him absurd and fantastic .'' Although Jinnah pleaded his case as perhaps only a brilliant orator and a man passionately in love could have, but to no avail .
Not only was this the end of the friendship between the two men, but in a true filmi andaz Sir Dinshaw forbade Ruttie to meet Jinnah as long as she lived in his mansion . As she was still a minor, law was on his side but instead of diminishing their love for one another this merely served to make them more committed . Patiently they waited out the two - year period till Ruttie attained her majority . She converted to Islam adopting the name Miriun, and on April 19 , 1918 the two of them were married at his house South Court in Bombay .
*The Honeymoon *
The raja of Mahmudabad gifted the ring which Jinnah gave Ruttie . The raja and a few friends of Jinnah were the only guests at the wedding, and later the couple spent part of their honeymoon at the Mahmudabad lodge in Nainital . The rest of their honeymoon was at Maideraja of Mahmudabadns, a magnificent hotel just beyond the Red Fort in delhi .
*Happy couple *
Ruttie and Jinnah made a head-turning couple . Her long hair would be decked in fresh flowers, and she wore vibrant silk and headbands lavish with diamonds, rubies and emeralds . And Jinnah in those days was the epitome of elegance in suits specially stitched in London . And no two people could have been happier or more fulfilled than
the Jinnahs in the beginning years of their marriage . The only blot on their joy was Ruttie`s ostracism from her family . Sir Dinshaw mourned Ruttie socially even after his granddaughter Dina was born .
The Rift Begins
By mid 1922, Jinnah was facing political isolation as he devoted every spare moment to be the voice of moderation in a nation tone by Hindu-Muslim antipathy . The increasingly late hours and the personal distance between them lacerated Ruttie with feelings of desolation . That September she packed her bags and took her daughter to London .
The echoes of her loneliness are apparent in a letter which she sent to her friend Kanji, thanking him for the bouquet of roses he had sent as a bon voyage gift . ''It will always give me pleasure to hear from you, so if you have a superfluous moment on your hands you know [address] where you will find me if i don't lose myself . And just one thing more - go and see Jinnah and tell me how he is - he has a habit of overworking himself and now that i am not there to tease and bother him he will be worse than ever .''
*Busy Jinnah *
After her return, Ruttie tried to see more of her husband but he was too busy campaigning for elections as an independent Muslim candidate for the general Bombay seats . Jinnah too was grieving - photographs of him in this era never show him smiling - but the task he had under taken was too immense for him to move away from for personal reasons .
A world of her own
As a result, Ruttie withdrew into a world of spirits, seances and mysticism .Kanji remain a life line as she turned more and more to him for understanding and support . She wrote to him about her desire to visit a medium and communicate with spirits . When Kanji sent her information about dream travels, her response effectively told about her state of mind . ''There is nothing i would welcome with greater rejoicing then an experience of a sort to which you refer in your letter . But in my heavy drug - like sleep there is no redeeming feature ... a restive mind and correspondingly restless physical state ... I don't dream expecting very rarely .
''She tried to interest to Jinnah in metaphysical matters but his growing conservartism not with standing, his legal practice alone remained so demanding that he had little time to devote to the whims of a wife half his age . She wrote to Kanji ,'' My soul is to clogged. and thought i aspire and crave, God knows how earnstly, my researches to remain uncrowned - even by thorns. '' She was only 25 years old .
Second Honeymoon
In 1925, Jinnah was appointed to a subcommittee in of studying the plausibility of establishing a military collage like Sandhurst in India. For this purpose he was to under take a five- month tour of Europe and North America . He decided to take Ruttie with him on what he hoped would be a second honeymoon . Instead the trip simply magnified the growing personal gulf between them .
*Ruttie's deteriorating health *
Rutties health deteriorated rapidly in the years after they returned from their final trip together . But she kept her up interest in her pets and her close friends . Even when her health was frail and her feet were swollen, she often went out in bedroom sleepers, for as she wrote, ''no shoes are large enough to accommodate my elegant and lily - like feet !'' By 1927, Ruttie and Jinnah had virtually separated, the shifting of the Muslim Leagues office to Delhi was the final blow to a relationship which was in essence over .
*The Tregic Conclusion *
Ruttie lived at the Taj Hotel in Bombay , almost a recluse as she became more and more bed-ridden Kanji continued to be her constant companion, and by February 18, 1929 she had become so weak all she could manage to say to him was to look after her cats . Two days later, Ruttie petit Jinnah passed away . It was her 29th birthday .
She was buried on February 22 in Bombay according to Muslim rites . Jinnah sat like a statue throughout the funeral but when her body was being lowered into the grave, but as we was asked by a nearest relative to throw the earth on the grave first, he broke down and wept . *Later, Justice Changla said, ''That was the only time when i found Jinnah betraying some shadow of human weakness .'' *
It's not a well publicised fact that as a young student in England it had been one of Jinnahs dreams to play Romeo at The Globe . It is a strange twist of fate that a love story that started like a fairy tale ended as a haunting tragedy to rival any of Shakespeares dramas .
Re: Jinnah: Q & A (merged)
She was born in London shortly after midnight on August 14-15 in 1919 -“oddly enough”, in Stanley Wolpert’s words, “precisely twenty-eight years to the day and hour before the birth of Jinnah’s other offspring, Pakistan”. We are told that her arrival was signaled when her parents, Mohammad Ali Jinnah and Ruttie Jinnah were in a theatre “but they were obliged to leave their box hurriedly”.
There is another reference to Dina in Wolpert’s “Jinnah of Pakistan” from the period that the Quaid spent in London in 1930-33, “the least political years” of his adult life. "Dina was his sole comfort, but Dina was away at school most of the time and home only for brief holidays.
She was a dark-eyed beauty, lithe and winsome. She had her mother’s smile and was pert or petulant as only an adored, pampered daughter could be to her doting father. He had two dogs, one formidable black Doberman(Essie), the other a white West Highland Terrier(Peter)".
In the same paragraph, Wolpert writes: “In November of 1932, Jinnah read H.C. Armstrong’s life of Kemal Ataturk, Grey Wolf, and seemed to have found his own reflection in the story of Turkey’s great modernist leader. It was all he talked about for a while at home, even to Dina who nicknamed him ‘Grey Wolf’. Being only thirteen, her way of cajolingly pestering him to take her to High Road to see Punch and Judy, who surfaced in Hampstead every Sunday, was, ‘Come on, Grey Wolf, take me to a pantomime; after all, I am on my holidays’.”
After the death of his wife Rutti (originally a Parsi who converted to Islam before marriage to Jinnah after a long courtship), Fatimah Jinnah, his sister became too possessive of Jinnah, ever shadowing him. Hye says Fatimah was mainly instrumental in causing distance between Jinnah and his daughter Dina (original name Deen Bai but fondly called so). Jinnah wanted to marry her with barrister Akbar Ali, a member of Bombay’s elite. But this could not materialise due to Fatima,Hye says. ? Dina went back to the fold of Parsi religion as Fatimah would not allow him her father’s company??(Above para quite questionable…)(http://www.islamicvoice.com/october…pinion.htm~Syed Shah Abdul Hye now in his 90’s,Mohammad Ali Jinnah’s Chauffeur in 1930’s,currently lives in in Udipi, a coastal town of Karnataka.)
But they later grew apart, Dina never joined her father in Pakistan. She came to Karachi only for his funeral. The relationship was marred by the fact that Dina married a Parsi-born Christian, Neville Wadia. Jinnah tried to dissuade her, just like Sir Dinshaw had tried to influence his daughter many years ago, but to no avail. Jinnah, told her that there were millions of Muslim boys in India, and she could have anyone she chose. Dina’s counter-question was why didn’t Jinnah choose one of the millions of Muslim girls in India instead of her mother, a Parsi. Jinnah replied that he had married Rattanbai Petit after she had converted to Islam, so the case was different. Dina Jinnah, as she then still was, then asked how her father would react if Neville converted to Islam. He replied, “Possibly I might then consider it.”
The relationship became formal after she married. They did correspond, he addressed her formally as ‘Mrs. Wadia’.Dina and Neville lived in Bombay and had two children, a boy and a girl. Shortly after that they separated.
Sharifuddin Peerzada, who had served as Jinnah’s personal secretary, dispell certain misconceptions about the Quaid’s break with his daughter over the issue of her marriage to businessman Neville Wadia. Dina married Neville,( a Parsi who first converted to Christianity & then reconverted to Zoroastrianism so that he can enter back into his wealthy Parsi Family) in 1938. Peerzada believe that Quaid did not disinherit his daughter, as such as he was not permitted by the law of the time to do so.
In a will prepared in 1939, he left about 90 per cent of his estate to various Muslim charities and educational institutions, such as the Sindh Madressah that Jinnah attended as a boy and the Aligarh Muslim University, and almost all the rest to his sister Fatima Jinnah. However, he deposited Rs200,000 with Habib Bank, and settled the annuity thereof on his daughter. The former secretary to the founder of Pakistan also confirms Dina’s claim that she met her father after her marriage, contrary to the popular impression that he never saw her again.
He disclosed that; after her marriage, Jinnah met his daughter twice, once in 1943 after an attempt on his life had been made by a Khaksar. She visited him on her own initiative, and was admitted to his bedroom, but she did not stay for more than a couple of minutes.
The second occasion was as described by Dina, but Peerzada adds that this occurred when her husband had left her for another woman, and the objectionable husband was no longer on the scene. It might be guessed that the Quaid’s objection to Neville was not merely because of his religion, but perhaps because of certain character flaws in him that he perceived.
Dina also wrote on at least three occasions to the Quaid. Those letters were preserved in his records, one of them being to praise his June 3 speech, and another to ask for some of her mother’s books. It is not on record whether he replied or not. — Internews
Following is the text of Dina’s brief memoir of her father, titled A Daughter’s Memory: “My father was not a demonstrative man. But he was an affectionate father. My last meeting with him took place in Bombay in 1946. He had come from New Delhi, in the midst of most heavy preoccupations with crucial negotiations. He phoned, inviting me and my children to tea.
“He was very happy to see us - Dina was five and Nusli, two. We mostly talked about the children and politics. He told me that Pakistan was coming. Despite his pressing engagements in New Delhi he had found time to buy presents for us. “As we said good-bye, he bent down to hug Nusli. The grey cap, which he wore so often that it now bears his name, caught Nusli’s fancy, and in a moment he had put it on his grandson’s head saying, ‘Keep it, my boy.’ Nusli prizes the cap to this day. I remember the gesture because it was characteristic of his sensibility and consideration for me and my children. At the time of partition, Dina decided to stay on in India. She had married into one of the wealthiest Parsi families of India, the Wadia family.
At present Mrs Dina Wadia spends her time between New York and Mumbai. Her son Nusli Wadia (grandson of Mr Jinnah) is the managing director of one of India’s largest industrial groups Bombay Dyeing. This group is believed by some to be an active supporter and financer of the BJP. According to her she has stayed away all these years because, as she has says,she didn’t want to be appropriated by anybody for political
purposes.
A sad yet stoic Dina Wadia,now 85, then visited Pakistan in March 2004,(nearly 56 years after she came to attend her fathers funeral.) at the invitation of PCB chairman Sheheryar Ahmed Khan to watch the latest India-Pakistan cricket series. In a message that she left in the visitors’ book at Quaid’s mausoleum, She wrote: "This has been a very sad and wonderful occasion for me,May his dream for Pakistan come true."She was accompanied with her son and the owner of India’s Bombay Dyeing Group, Nusli Wadia(Quiad’s only Grandson) and her grandsons Jehangir and Ness.
Dina spent 2 days in Lahore & a day in Karachi.She indeed has a striking resemblance with her father(a huge crowd picked this up when she visited Hot Spot, a restaurant owned by the PCB chief’s son). The entire family came and left in Nusli Wadia’s private plane, did its sightseeing (Badshahi Masjid and Iqbal’s Mazar) and eating out (Cuckoo’s Nest) in the company of Yousaf Salahuddin and his sons.
Apparently years back Ness and Jehangir were studying at Tufts University in Boston at the same time as Yousaf’s sons. They have maintained contact and it is said they have visited Pakistan previously.
Dina practices Christianity rather then zoroastrianism(Parsi),contrary to a popular belief~(an inherritance of beliefs from her mother who apparently was a mixture of Irish-Parsi desecent).
The Wadias
The Wadias’ first venture, over 250 years ago, was in the area of ship building - more than 355 ships were designed and built by the Wadias, including men-of-war for the British Navy. It was on one such ship that the American National Anthem was composed.
With the wave of industrialization in the 19th century, trading grew, and with it, opportunities for new areas of business. In 1879, Bombay was next only to New Orleans as the world’s largest cotton port. It was at this time that Nowrosjee Wadia, the second generation Wadia, set his sights on India’s mushrooming textile industry. On August 23rd, he began a small operation. Here, cotton yarn spun in India was dip dyed by hand in three colors-turkey red, green and orange-and laid out in the sun to dry. The Bombay Dyeing & Manufacturing Co. Ltd. had been born. A modest beginning for a company that was to grow in the following 115 yr. into one of India’s largest producer of textiles.
Neville Wadia(Dina’s Ex-Husband & Nusli’s Father), the third generation of the existing business family of the Wadias, was born in Liverpool on 22nd August 1911. He was educated at Malvern College and University of Cambridge. He started his career in 1931 as an apprentice with the Bombay Dyeing and Manufacturing Company Ltd., owned by his father Mr. Nowrosjee Wadia. In 1933 he was appointed the Director of the company. After his father’s death in 1952, Mr. Neville Wadia took over as the chairman of the company. At the age of 66, after spending forty eight years with Bombay Dyeing, he handed over the rein of control to his son, Mr. Nusli Wadia. Currently Bombay Dyeing has risen to the status of one of the most respected and widely diversified business houses.
In 2001 Ness Wadia, eldest son of Nusli was appointed the Deputy Managing Director of the company. Nusli and Maureen Wadia’s second son, Jeh,was married to Celina Marie Yovich in March 2003.