[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
Sorry to be facetious ... but he does not seem to be talking about the prophet, but rather the other people around him who couldn't figure out who is who. Not to endorse one or the other of the various fantastic theories flyng here.
[/QUOTE]
thanks for explaining, yes i meant that either the people who crucified jesus AS were on crack or they did really see some one being crucified. i hope my words were not taken as disrespect of a rasool of Allah...
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
If it's like: Jesus died at the cross.. was then resurrected, as himself - in flesh and blood, and then disappeared into thin air.. ..then that's that..
but if the belief is that Jesus died, and was then resurrected, but only spiritually, we're missing a body and a burial place.
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PakistaniAbroad, Christians believe the following about the death of Jesus and where he is now:
On the issue that someone else was crucified in Jesus' place: there is NO indication to such among ANY of his disciples documents. There was an attempt to do this with a man called Barnabas but the Jewish leaders would have nothing of it. They definitely hated Jesus so much that they would have made certain that it was Jesus that died. No Roman or Jewish documents allude to the fact that someone else died in Jesus' place. In fact, Jesus' followers would be the worlds greatest conmen for telling the world that Jesus died on the cross and was raised, because they died horrible for these believes (most being crucified themselves).
Josephus the well known historic (no Christian, and impartial) who lived and died in the first century, wrote that it was Jesus that died. The facts are so strong that anyone claiming, years after the incident, that it was not Jesus that died on the cross, could be laughed off. How can a wo/man hundreds of years after a fact, properly recorded, claim different without clear concrete evidence?!
The commonly held theory is not that Jesus was ‘switched’ at the cross by a look alike. The view is that Jesus went in to hiding when the jews were after his life, however someone betrayed Jesus and told them of his whereabouts (Judas i think).
This is when the switch occured, in that the people looking for Jesus saw someone else as him and caught him. The change was not physical but in the vision of the people. A miracle. That is what the ‘…but it appeared so unto them;..’ is about. Some say it was the betrayer who was seen as Jesus and crucified (more likely), others say it was some Rabbi.
The miracle is in the vision of the people that saved Jesus’s life. Thats why we dont believe in the resurrection because according to us Jesus never died in the first place. He returned 3 days later, and the people thought they had seen a resurruction.
ok point taken. So you’re of the belief that Jesus survived an attempted crucifixtion. Fair enough. IMO though, as The Old Man states, history verifies that the man on the cross indeed was dead. He was crucified in front of thousands. I believe his grave was also heavily gaurded for days after. How he survived all that, i dont know.
The Old Man:
Jesus on the cross is what we expected them to see since that is what ‘appeared to them’ and hence the well documented facts. However, I know that christianity is practically based on the crucifixtion theory and so without it, there’d be no point in following it. That is the main reason Islam came about and where they differ. Out of 1-5 points in your post, we only believe in number 4.
Barnabus was praised alot by Jesus was he not? so it would be worth seeing what he attempted to write even though he was discarded amd his gospels burnt, by the majority of christians.
I have a question though; when and how did judas die? im pretty sure it wasnt a natural death, but if youve got any info on it, i’d really appreciate it. thanks.
the Lord is in his holy temple.let all the earth keep silence before him.
Almighty,merciful,terrible,rightous,all seeing,all knowing God who was and,is and, is forever sees you and I right now.
Live accordingly.
Prophet Jesus (Peace be upon him) did not die, nor was he crucified. Allah (s.w.t.) raised him to heaven. Please read this Ayah from the Quran:'' and they said (in boast), -We killed The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah - But they killed him not, Nor crucified him...'' Surah 4, Ayah (157).
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by humhaipakistani: *
Jesus on the cross is what we expected them to see since that is what 'appeared to them' and hence the well documented facts. However, I know that christianity is practically based on the crucifixtion theory and so without it, there'd be no point in following it. That is the main reason Islam came about and where they differ. Out of 1-5 points in your post, we only believe in number 4.
Barnabus was praised alot by Jesus was he not? so it would be worth seeing what he attempted to write even though he was discarded amd his gospels burnt, by the majority of christians.
I have a question though; when and how did judas die? im pretty sure it wasnt a natural death, but if youve got any info on it, i'd really appreciate it. thanks.
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You are correct. Without the crucifiction AND resurrection of Jesus Christ there is no Christianity and then all Christians would still be awaiting the Messiah.
My spelling mistake - the one Pilate wanted to change for Jesus was BARRABAS not Barnabas. Barrabas left and as far as can tell, nothing was ever heard of him again. There is no evidence/scripture proving that Jesus "praised" Barnabas. Barnabas was a companion of Paul and wrote the Epistle/Gospel of Barnabas. His Gospel was not burnt by Christians. It was referred to by various early Christian leaders/writers. His writing did not contain anything new and can actually be seen to be a copy of what Paul wrote and taught (sometimes word for word). A translation is easily available and I quote some points he made:
About Jesus' death: For which cause we observe the eighth day with gladness, in which Jesus rose from the dead; and manifested himself to his disciples, ascended into heaven.
About Jesus:Then he clearly manifested himself to be the Son of God
Thanks for the information.
What about Judas though, any info on his death?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by humhaipakistani: *
Thanks for the information.
What about Judas though, any info on his death?
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According to Matt.27v5 Judas Iscariot hanged himself.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Lajawab: *
Stu, These are verses from the Quran:
The true story of Jesus' birth from Mary is narrated in the Holy Quran. We are told that he was born without a father by the command of God. Mary was single and a chaste woman.
**
(21:91) And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our Spirit, and We made her and her son a Sign for all peoples.
19:16 Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.
19:17 She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them: then We sent to her Our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.
19:18 She said: "I seek refuge from thee to (God) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear God."
19:19 He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son."
19:20 She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"
19:21 He said: "So (it will be): thy Lord saith, That is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': it is a matter (so) decreed." I have vowed a fast to (God) Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into no talk with any human being.' "
19:22 So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.
19:23 And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: she cried (in her anguish): "Ah! would that I had died before this! Would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!"
19:24 But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree): "Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee; 19:25 "And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: it will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee.
19:26 "So eat and drink and cool (thine) eyes. And if thou dost see any man, say,
19:27 At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!
19:28 "O sister of Aaron! thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"
19:29 But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?"
19:30 He said: "I am indeed a servant of God: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;
19:31 "And He hath made me Blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;
19:32 "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;
19:33 "So Peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the Day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!
19:34 Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
19:35 It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be," and it is.
19:36 Verily, God is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight.
19:37 But the sects differ among themselves: and woe to the Unbelievers because of the (coming) Judgment of a momentous Day!
**
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Dear Lawajab,
For the most part my catholic teaching does not disagree with these verses from the Quran you quote.
I was taught Mary was single, however when she gave birth to Jesus she was married to Joseph.
I was taught rather that Jesus was born in a manger, rather than in a group of palm tree's....but I suppose a shelter of palms could perhaps in olden times be called a manger...
I don't understand the quotes below which follow the story of Mary and the birth of Jesus. To me it seems like these {below} 19:35 -19:37
19:35 It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be," and it is.
19:36 Verily, God is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight.
19:37 But the sects differ among themselves: and woe to the Unbelievers because of the (coming) Judgment of a momentous Day!
are in contradiction to
21:91) And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our Spirit, and We made her and her son a Sign for all peoples.
AAG
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Furqan: *
Prophet Jesus (Peace be upon him) did not die, nor was he crucified. Allah (s.w.t.) raised him to heaven. Please read this Ayah from the Quran:'' and they said (in boast), -We killed The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah - But they killed him not, Nor crucified him...'' Surah 4, Ayah (157).
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Christians agree that Jesus was raised to heaven by God.
Perhaps the "They" in this ayat refer to are the Romans? or the Sanhedrin? as certainly there were no muslims at this time. I assume it must as Jesus followers certainly wouldn't boast of killing or crucifying him.
"But they killed him not, Nor crucified him...???" Perhaps is alluding to the fact that Jesus was raised to heaven by God.
I have never really understood this. If Haz Isa (as) has gone to heaven, then will he be able to read the qu'ran and then become a Muslim before he comes down to earth? And when he come, will it be clear to all he is back? And why is he coming back, our religion is complete :s
Hasee
It is because we as muslims are not "complete", that was the main reason for his return. We may have Islam as our religion but are we really and truly following it ?
The answer is No.
We as an "ummah" are incomplete without his message.
the creed
the creed of the apostles of Jesus who is the Christ the Son of the Living God.
I belive in God the Father Almight.Maker of Heaven and earth.And in Jesus Christ,His only son,our Lord who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,born of the virgin Mary,suffered under Pontius Pilate,was crucified,DEAD,and buried.
He descended into Hell,the third day he rose again FROM THE DEAD.
He ascended into Heaven,and sitteth on the right hand of GOD the father Almighty.
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost,the Holy and universal church.
The communion of the the saints,the forgivness of my sins,the resurrection of the body,and life everlasting.
Peace of our Lord Jesus Christ and of all the saints living and,dead to all of you. In his name. Amen.In the name and for the sake of all of the saints whose blood is spilled in the name Jesus Christ.Kyron.Paecum Novum Dos Requimus. Grace and peace upon you and your's for reading this.There is no God but God.
muslim bretheren.
All muslim bretheren are worshippers and adherents of the one and true God. he is the I Am. Jehovah,Jehovah Rahha,Jehoveh Nissi,Jehovah Rapha,Immam,Allah,Jehovah Jehri,El Al.
Let us worship our God Almighty, Peace to all bretheren.
they
The corrupt, the defiled,the liar,the warmonger,the whoremonger,the adulterer,the materialist,seek to steal our love of God from us.To twist our righteous love to evil ends.Love thy neighbor as thou love thyself.
The hungry shall be filled.The poor shall be satisfied,the pure in heart shall see God.
Blessed be to you when men revile you and, persecute you and, say all manner of evil against ,falsly,for my sake,rejoice and be exceedingly glad,for great is your reward in Heaven. Peace to all Bretheren.
one last thing
one last thing. our Islamic bretheren have given us mathemetics,medicine ahead of it's time,open thought,philosophy,the greatest architecture of all time,democracy in a time of barbarism.
Peace to all Bretheren.The sunday of palms is here. Let us recommit ourselves to our God.
Re: the creed
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by garcia: *
our **Lord* who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,born of the virgin Mary,suffered under Pontius Pilate,was crucified,DEAD,and buried.
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God died?
god died?
no brother.the body of the son incarnate in the flesh of a man was killed.
it wa them resurrected(next line(.miracle.resurrecta,in the latin or greek.poke fun,nice respect.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Hash00: *
I have never really understood this. If Haz Isa (as) has gone to heaven, then will he be able to read the qu'ran and then become a Muslim before he comes down to earth? And when he come, will it be clear to all he is back? And why is he coming back, our religion is complete :s
Hasee
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Islam is complete as stated in the Quran. Prophet Isa will comeback to slew the Dajjal.All prophets of Allah are muslims, ppl changed their message and distorted it. Prophet Isa will be recognized and acknowledged by all ppl including christians. He will tell the world to follow Islam and live his life than die like the rest of mankind.
Allah tells us about himself in the Quran in the following surah.
Following is the translation of
Surah IKHLAS
Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And their none comparable unto him.
This is what is in the core of a muslim's beleifs.
Allah is the One and the Only
Allah has created everything living or non living in the universe from the begining of time to the end of time..
Allah has no partners or sons or was ever created or will ever die. Allah is eternal without an end or begining and never changes. All in the universe depend on him for sustainance in every way. Allah is independant of all He created in every infinite way. There was never or ever will be anything or anyone comparable to Allah in any way.
Allah be any material being present within the universe, because His must be a will that existed before the universe and created the universe thereupon. The Almighty Creator is One Whom everything finds existence, yet Whose existence is without any beginning or end. All ability and power comes through Allah.
In all respects than how can god have a son?