Jesus

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
I don't think the majority Christian viewpoint is that Jesus was 'lifted' up to the Almighty.. I think the fundamental Christian belief is that Christ died for their sins. There are small Christian sects however that hold the same belief as most Muslims, that someone was 'switched' in his place at the cross.. (imagine the odds of that happening when Jesus was such a widely known personality and his next of kin were present at the crucifiction).

So, since the majority Christian belief is that he died.. it's a legitimite question now to ask .. where is he buried?
[/QUOTE]

From my readings, the majority Christian view is that he(pbuh) did die, but was resurrected, which you also see in the movie "Passion of the Christ". Therefore, it is not a legitimate question to ask where he is buried, since he was "resurrected" according to majority Christian belief. My Christian friends also say the same thing, that he is alive, not dead, and will return as the Promised Messiah.

well we'd need someone knowledgable in the Christian belief to tell us what exactly they believe in.

If it's like: Jesus died at the cross.. was then resurrected, as himself - in flesh and blood, and then disappeared into thin air.. ..then that's that..

but if the belief is that Jesus died, and was then resurrected, but only spiritually, we're missing a body and a burial place.

Quran and Jesus

“Behold! God said: ‘O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee of the falsehoods of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the day of Resurrection. Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.” 1 (Quran, Chapter 3, v. 54)

Orthodox Muslims point to this Quranic verse to support their interpretation of the hadith (mentioned later) that refer to a return of Jesus Christ to establish Islam. It is important to note that all Muslims regard only the Arabic Quran as authentic, all other language versions being a translation. The above verse comes from the Yusuf Ali English translation, probably the most respected by orthodox Muslims, who believe 3:54 states that Jesus was taken up to heaven (“raise thee to Myself”) alive. It is worth noting some other orthodox Islamic translations of 3:54:

Pickthall : “O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me”

Rashad Khalifa : “O Jesus! I am terminating your life, raising you to Me…”

Mohammad Sarwar : “He told Jesus, ‘I will save you from your enemies, raise you to Myself…’”

M. H. Shakir : “O Isa (Jesus)! I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me”

Al-Hilali & Khan: “O Iesa (Jesus)! I will take you and raise you to Myself…”

Another Quranic reference used by Orthodox Muslims in support of their beliefs about Jesus’ ascension to heaven is chapter 4, verses 157-158:

“That they said (in boast), ‘We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah,’ but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them. And those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.” (Quran, Chapter 4, vs.157-158)

Still other orthodox translations of the above verse follow the same pattern. So the generally accepted orthodox Muslim translations of the verses in question suggest that Jesus Christ was not crucified, but he was somehow taken up to heaven. The following interpretation of Chapter 4, verse 157 speaks to the Substitution Theory mentioned earlier:

“And because of their saying (in boast) ‘We killed Messiah Isa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah,’ but they killed him not, nor crucified him. But the resemblance of Isa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man)” (Hilali & Khan translation)

This interpretation of 4:157 is no longer universally accepted amongst orthodox Muslims. For example, Nadeem Quraishi, an orthodox Muslim who no longer accepts these translations, offers his proof that these are erroneous translations of the Arabic language:

“Behold! Allah said: ‘O Isa! I shall cause you to die and I shall exalt you towards me and I shall clear you of those who reject Faith, and I am going to make those who follow you above those who reject Faith—until the day of Awakening. Then towards Me is your return, so that I shall decide among you as to that in which you used to differ’”

Aside from the above challenge to the standard orthodox Islamic translations of the verses in question, the Ahmadiyya Movement interprets 3:54 similarly to Mr. Quraishi’s version:

“Remember the time when Allah said, ‘O Jesus, I will cause thee to die a natural death and raise thee to Myself, and will clear thee of the charges of those who disbelieve, and will exalt those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, and I will judge between you concerning that wherein you differ.’”

To gain more insight into this new challenge to orthodox Islam occurring within its own ranks, the reader is encouraged to visit Nadeem Quraishi’s website, “Jesus (pbuh): Dead or Alive?” . If you are unfamiliar with the issue of the death of Jesus Christ in Islam, then Mr. Quraishi’s website is must reading. Nadeem Quraishi meticulously breaks down the Arabic of the Quran in his attempt to prove that the words of 3:54 generally translated by orthodox translators as “take thee” have been translated incorrectly, and that the true translation of the Arabic word, wafat, is not “take thee,” or “gather thee,” but “die” or “cause to die” or “death.” Quraishi offers the following examples in the Quran where the word wafat is used, and demonstrates that in every case where wafat was mentioned in the Quran, the translators—even the orthodox translators—translated wafat as “die” or “death” and not as “taken up.” So Quraishi asks, for what reason did the translators, when they translated 3:54, decide to depart from the standard way of translating wafat as “death,” and choose, instead, to translate it as “take thee,” i.e., physically take up to heaven? Below are 20 examples that Quraishi cites where orthodox Muslim translators translated wafat as “death” or “die” in the Quran, and not as “take thee.”

Chapter 2, v. 234
Chapter 2, v. 240
Chapter 3, v. 193
Chapter 4, v. 15
Chapter 4, v. 97

Chapter 6, v. 61
Chapter 7, v. 37
Chapter 7, v. 126
Chapter 8, v. 50
Chapter 10, v. 46
Chapter 10, v. 104
Chapter 12, v. 101
Chapter 13, v. 40
Chapter 16, v. 28
Chapter 16, v. 32

Chapter 16, v. 70
Chapter 39, v. 42
Chapter 40, v. 67
Chapter 40, v. 77
Chapter 47, v. 27

This is a clear demonstration of the tedious and heated arguments within Islam over this issue. Again, Quraishi, an orthodox Muslim himself, offers a biting criticism of the orthodox stand, claiming to stick steadfastly to the original Arabic meanings. In this case he focuses on the Arabic word, rafa, translated in the orthodox translation of 3:54 as, “raise.” And again Quraishi backs up his views by citing many other Quranic verses where the word rafa is used to mean “exalted,” or raise in status, not raise bodily, in the literal sense:

Diva4U .. you try too hard :)

we're only trying to find out where he's buried.. let those who believe he vanished into thin air continue beliving that.. while those who claim he died need to find some proof as to his whereabouts after his survival from the crucifiction and his ultimate burial place.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
imagine the odds of that happening when Jesus was such a widely known personality and his next of kin were present at the crucifiction).

[/QUOTE]

lets see what the Quran says on the topic.

[Pickthal 4:157] And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.

someone was crucified alrite, but it wasnt Jesus they saw.

thanks for the reply, just so I have it right, baby Jesus himself stated that he was not the Son of God, as per this passage?

19:30 He said: "I am indeed a servant of God: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;

also this following passage is relevant:

19:35 It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be," and it is.

interesting that Jesus' father is said to be an angel, yet his status as a prophet in not "above" Mohammed's (PBUH)

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by humhaipakistani: *

lets see what the Quran says on the topic.

[/quote]

I know what the Qura'n says.. it doesn't say anything about a 'switcheroo'.. the verse u quoted only proves Jesus survived the cross. Where people got the idea of the 'switch' can be attributed to imaginative story telling only.

Pakistani Abroad :-

The fact is there was NO switcheroo..

You are correct in saying that the whole switcheroo scenario seems more like a story-telling.

PA:

1)what do you mean by a switcharoo?

2)'...but it appeared so unto them;..' what do you believe this part of the ayah means?

stu, the angel is not Jesus's father. He was Gabriel. Jesus was without a father, just like Adam was without either parent.

Let me ask the question in simple terms which may be what the original question of the thread was about...
After Jesus "died"... and his body was left hanging on the cross.... what happened to that body? Did someone bury it? If so, where? Or was it just left hanging?

“switcheroo” is a commonly held theory among most Muslims that Jesus was ‘switched’ at the cross by someone resembling him.

the “but it appeared to them” is about not being able to ‘kill Jesus’..

Suppose someone makes an unsuccessful attempt at your life somewhere.

What if I tell everyone: “Hey someone said they killed you.. but they’re wrong in saying that, for sure they did not kill you.. it only appeared to them… and they killed you not for sure.”

Now how do we go from that to: “But someone LIKE YOU was switched at the place where you were supposed to be killed”? :konfused:

all it tells us is that someone made an attempt at your life and while they think they killed you.. they didn’t.

Pretty much what that particular verse tells us.

quran says “it appeared to them”, now what can explain it? either all of those people were on crack and had hallucinations, or they really did “SEE” someone they thought was jesus being crucified. but since he (AS) was not crucified, what happened? you pick what you want, the crack theory or the switcharu theory. i would stick with the switcharu theory.

all i wanted was to know that if there was a SHRINE or a "kabar" for jesus in this world? or "so" called jesus, whoever that person was!

Furqan, amongst a myriad of different opinions… also read this. I found this interesting. Not sure if this is a loony or if its some credible theory.

Anyway, here it is

http://www.michaelhorner.com/articles/resurrection/

deleted by AAG.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ThandyMazaq: *

quran says "it appeared to them", now what can explain it? either all of those people were on crack and had hallucinations, or they really did "SEE" someone they thought was jesus being crucified. but since he (AS) was not crucified, what happened? you pick what you want, the crack theory or the switcharu theory. i would stick with the switcharu theory.
[/QUOTE]

The crack theory ??? Wow, and this is a prophet of God that you are talking about. Have some respect please.

Re: Jesus

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Furqan: *
Where is jesus's body buried? Why Is there not a shrine?
[/QUOTE]

There is a shrine.

The Church of the Holy Sepulture in Jerusalem is located at what
traditionally is thought to have been the historical location of where Jesus' body lay between burial and resurrection.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Diva4U: *

The crack theory ??? Wow, and this is a prophet of God that you are talking about. Have some respect please.
[/QUOTE]

Diva: so jesus is buried in kashmir? Why do all the ahmedi's go there?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Diva4U: *
The crack theory ??? Wow, and this is a prophet of God that you are talking about. Have some respect please.
[/QUOTE]
Sorry to be facetious ... but he does not seem to be talking about the prophet, but rather the other people around him who couldn't figure out who is who. Not to endorse one or the other of the various fantastic theories flyng here.

Re: Re: Jesus

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PurelyAvgGirl: *

There is a shrine.

The Church of the Holy Sepulture in Jerusalem is located at what
traditionally is thought to have been the historical location of where Jesus' body lay between burial and resurrection.
[/QUOTE]

thanks for the info... :)