I think we have enough evidence of jesus coming down alive in the previous posts.. by some other members..
Dead people don't bleed.. Jesus did.. Dead men don't sweat. Jesus did.. after he was taken down..
A soldier pierced Jesus’ side with aspear “and immediately there came out blood and water” (John 19:34).
Dead men don't walk and talk.. and then mysteriously disappear.. Jesus did..
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
Holy Qur'an doesn't prescribe stoning as a punishment.. i think Sunnis believe in it.. Non Muslim??
No beard lengths mentioned in the qur'an.. Sunnis think you have to have one.. Non Muslim?
Qur'an doesn't talk about the return of any Mehdi.. Sunnis are waiting for such a person.... Non Muslim??
i could go on..
[/QUOTE]
Quran tells us IN SHORT many things we should or shouldn't do. Like for example the salaat. In the Quran it's not prescribed exactly how to do it, just that we have to, how many raqaat etc. that sort of information we find in the Ahadith and Sunnat.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sadya: *
Quran tells us IN SHORT many things we should or shouldn't do. Like for example the salaat. In the Quran it's not prescribed exactly how to do it, just that we have to, how many raqaat etc. that sort of information we find in the Ahadith and Sunnat.
[/QUOTE]
and here you said..
[quote]
If you even say, that you believe everything written in Quran, but one thing, if you even reject one fact written in Quran, you are not a muslim. Not a bad one, not a good one, you are simply not a muslim if you don't believe EVERYTHING written in Quran.
[/quote]
think about it... just like you have excuses to turn towards other books.. other people have excuses to turn to their 'other' books.. now if your 'other' Books don't agree with their 'other' Books.. who's 'Muslim' and who's 'non-Muslim'???
Jesus died and so it says in the Qur'an. Now if your 'other books' tell you differently.. you follow them at the risk of being declared a 'non Muslim'.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Destino: *
Evidence please.. Do not generalize the discussion like ignorant people and bring some facts.. some examples of "our own different version of Quran"...
[/QUOTE]
I quote from a booklet called "Final rejoinder to Mirza Tahir" written by Muhammad Yusuf Ludhianvi:
A Qadinai must mould Quran and Hadith to his own will and wish. In your Qadiani Quran, new "aya" were added by the arch-liar, Mirza Qadiani e.g.
ienna anzalnahoe kareeba mmienal qadiaan.
Tazkirah p. 74
Mirza's another flabbergasting addition in the Holy Quran was
shaatan tazabihan
to precede and rhyme with
fabie ayyi allaa ie rabbie koema takaziebaan
in Surah "Ar Rahmaan" .
What a rustic homily from Mirza to confuse and averawe his followers! This ambigious addition (meaning two goats will be slaughtered) with the Quranic Ayat gives the impresssion as if this too is an aya of Surah Ar Rahmaan which is tantamount to ridiculing the Holy Quran.
To Sadya,
I have previously requested you to please go to an Ahmadiyya website and read the Holy Quran on that website and then come with the objections that Ahmadis have their own Quran.
But instead of doing that you go through a book of Yusuf Ludhianvi (an arch enemy of Ahmadis) and presented his writings over here. So I request you again to read the Holy Quran presented on the Ahmadiyya website again and then renew your allegations!
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
and here you said..
think about it... just like you have excuses to turn towards other books.. other people have excuses to turn to their 'other' books.. now if your 'other' Books don't agree with their 'other' Books.. who's 'Muslim' and who's 'non-Muslim'???
Jesus died and so it says in the Qur'an. Now if your 'other books' tell you differently.. you follow them at the risk of being declared a 'non Muslim'.
[/QUOTE]
Where exactly is it written in Quran that Jesus (pbuh) had died?
Ahadith and Sunnat are not 'other' books. They only explain what is written in Quran. To understand the text of the Quran better, you have to read how the prophet and the sahaba had explained the verses.
I know we have strong and weak and weaker Ahadith, but how are they different from the Quran? They only explain and add information.
To Sadya:
Please read the first mail that started this particular discussion thread. There you will find from Holy Quran the proof about the death of Jesus.
What you need to do is to remember whats written previously. You can't just keep marching forward and forgetting everything already discussed.
And don't forget to visit www.alislam.org to go through the Holy Quran.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sadya: *
Where exactly is it written in Quran that Jesus (pbuh) had died?
[/quote]
three pages and you just jump to the last???
[quote]
Ahadith and Sunnat are not 'other' books. They only explain what is written in Quran.
[/quote]
really???? is God in need for mortals to explain his divine text??
[quote]
To understand the text of the Quran better, you have to read how the prophet and the sahaba had explained the verses.
[/quote]
First off NO you don't and second off how would one ever know what you read was actually how the Prophet and Sahaba 'explained' it.
[quote]
I know we have strong and weak and weaker Ahadith, but how are they different from the Quran? They only explain and add information.
[/QUOTE]
how are they different?? these are the kind of books that led previous generations astray.... tell me.. is Allah short of words?? who are men to add and explain His words??? do they think they can do a better job than Allah Almighty Himself couldn't do in 6000+ verses??
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Destino: *
The fact is that most revered of the disciples of Jesus, Paul, the oringinator of trinity, was born long after Jesus.. people speculate that it was 50 or more years after the death of jesus, or even more.. No on e can be sure..
I can't believe that Paul ever met Jesus.. or had any divine guidence.. look at his views.. What he says about women.. His harshness.. he was exact opposit of the loving person of Jesus..
[/QUOTE]
Correcting some untruths:
Paul was not "the originator of trinity. The word didn't even exist in his time!
Paul was a contemporary of Jesus as clear facts indicate and not born 50 years later. An example: He was already a scholar with Gamaliël when Jesus was preaching, and was present with the stoning of Stephen (Acts.7v58). Your info therefor is wrong.
Nothing wrong about Pauls views. He never were reprimanded by any of the other disciples that knew Jesus' teachings intimately.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
really???? is God in need for mortals to explain his divine text??
First off NO you don't and second off how would one ever know what you read was actually how the Prophet and Sahaba 'explained' it.
how are they different?? these are the kind of books that led previous generations astray.... tell me.. is Allah short of words?? who are men to add and explain His words??? do they think they can do a better job than Allah Almighty Himself couldn't do in 6000+ verses??
[/QUOTE]
its not Allah who needs men to explain His words....
its men who need someone to explain to them the divine words....
text books, written for students, r always unclear to them, unless the teacher explains the things....
have u even been to school and experienced this????
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by fatehahmad: *
To Sadya,
I have previously requested you to please go to an Ahmadiyya website and read the Holy Quran on that website and then come with the objections that Ahmadis have their own Quran.
But instead of doing that you go through a book of Yusuf Ludhianvi (an arch enemy of Ahmadis) and presented his writings over here. So I request you again to read the Holy Quran presented on the Ahmadiyya website again and then renew your allegations!
[/QUOTE]
Why don't YOU proove he's wrong? Enemy or not, is this point of his not true?
for a while there circulated here also versions of Ahmadi quran with no additions in it, but there the translation was wrong!
I don't understand, if it's written on so many places in Quran that Muhammed is the last messenger of Allah, and there will be no others after Him, then how anybody could believe otherwise.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by fatehahmad: *
To Sadya:
Please read the first mail that started this particular discussion thread. There you will find from Holy Quran the proof about the death of Jesus.
[/QUOTE]
That is another example of bad explanation of what is really meant...
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
three pages and you just jump to the last???
[/QUOTE]
Maybe you yourself should go back to the first page. My first post in this topic starts on the end of the first page....
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
really???? is God in need for mortals to explain his divine text??
First off NO you don't and second off how would one ever know what you read was actually how the Prophet and Sahaba 'explained' it.
how are they different?? these are the kind of books that led previous generations astray.... tell me.. is Allah short of words?? who are men to add and explain His words??? do they think they can do a better job than Allah Almighty Himself couldn't do in 6000+ verses??
[/QUOTE]
Oh, of course, then we should just believe a man like Mirza, about whom Allah Himself has prooved in front of everybody that he is a liar.
For example, his predictions didn't come true about his second marriage to an already married lady, Muhammadi Begum; that is when her husband would die, Muhammadi Begum, the widow would marry Mirza Qadiani. (second part of his prediction to which he referred in his writing: "Remember, if the second part of this prediction does not come out, I should be deemed worse than every wicked." Appendix to Anjam-e-Atham) What happened, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani died before his rival Romeo....
What about this:
. a mubahala challenge between Mirza Qadiani and maulana Abdul Haq Ghaznavi (May Allah rest his soul in peace). This was held on Zeeqada 10, 1310 AH in Eidgha of Amritsar. The late Maulana's challenge was on this issue: Mirza and his Mirzais were a coterie of liars, unbelievers, heretics, impostors and dualist-infidels. And Mirza Qadiani had already decleared that:
Who soever is the liar out of the Mubahala participants, perishes during the lifetime of the truthful. (malfuzat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani, vol.9, p440).
In accordance with the above stipulation Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani was the liar as he perished during the life time of Maula Abdul Haq Ghaznavi on may 26, 1908, whereas the Maulana Sahib, (Allah's mercy on him), lived for 9 years after Mirza's death. (Raees-e-Qadian, Vol. 2 p.192 and Tarik-e-Mirza, p. 38)
maybe we should take this discussion to a different thread, since this is off topic in this one.
Explain this:
A)5:75 The Messiah, son of Maryam, was none but a Rasul, surely the Rasuls have passed away before him. And his mother was a truthful woman and they both used to take food…
(1) Jesus(pbuh) was only a Rasul,
(2) Rasuls before him have passed away.
3:143 Muhammad is no more than a Rasul, surely the Rasuls before him have already passed away. If then he dies or be killed, will you turn upon your heels?…
(1) Muhammad(pbuh) was only a Rasul,
(2) Rasuls before him have passed away
Any Exceptions???
B) (On day of Judgment Jesus will explain to God)
5:117 "I did not say to them anything except about what You had ordered me, namely, “serve Allah, my Rabb and your Rabb” and I was witness over them so long as I was with them, but when you caused me to die (wafat), You were Watcher over them. And You are a Witness over all things.
C)Lets talk about “alterations” in Quran. This is a popular translation of Sunni Muslims..
4:157 Hilali & Khan :"And because of their saying (in boast) “We killed Messiah Isa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah,” -but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of Isa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man)….
Show me the Arabic of “was Put over another man” in the verse..
(this is correct translation):157 And (because of) their saying: “Surely we have killed the Masih, - ‘Isa, son of Mar-yam” the Rasul of Allah, and they could not murder him, nor could they kill him by crucifixion, but he was made to resemble to them. And verily those who differ regarding him are certainly in a doubt about him. They have no knowledge about it but are merely following a guess; and they could not kill him for certain;
D)3:54 Behold! Allah Said: "O Isa! I shall cause you to die (Ya Isa, inni mutawaffika wa rafi’uka ilaiya) and I shall exalt you towards me and I shall clear you of those who reject Faith, and I am going to make those who follow you above those who reject Faith - until the day of Awakening. Then towards Me is your return, so that I shall decide among you as to in which you used to differ.
**Interpretation of the word ‘wafat’: ** Among all the popular mainstream muslim translations Each and every scholar translated the word “wafat” as death in at least 20 different instances in their translations. However, in this particular verse, they interpreted the meaning as ‘take away’ and insinuate physical ascension.
**Interpretation of the word “rafa” – to raise/to exalt: **
the true meaning of the word ‘rafa’ – exalt in honor and/or exalt in spiritual dignity. This verse tells us that while the Jews were planning to kill him, (he will not be killed, rather) Allah will cause him to die a natural death and sanctify him against the charges of the enemies.
The word rafa’ is used for Hz. Idris (as)19:57 as: And We raised him to an elevated state. (WA rafa’naa hu…). The use of ‘rafa’ here should prompt you to declare that Allah raised Idris(pbuh) in alive condition in the Heaven or at least to a place hanging high above.
about the status of different Prophets : 43:32 …And We have raised some of them above others in rank.
(…WA rafa’ na…)
About Holy Prophet :saw: 94:4 And We have exalted for you your mention (…WA rafa’ NA…)
Prophet Ibrahim(pbuh) has been exalted by Allah.
6:84 ….We exalt in degrees whom We please (…narfa’u darazaa…)
All good deeds are raised towards Allah.
35:10 …all pure speech and all good deed, --He exalts it…. (…yarfa’uhu. …)
House of pious Muslims are raised high by Allah.
24:36 in (certain) houses which Allah has permitted to be raised up… (…an turfa’a WA yuzkara…)
Now you decide??
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by The Old Man: *
Correcting some untruths:
Paul was not "the originator of trinity. The word didn't even exist in his time!
Paul was a contemporary of Jesus as clear facts indicate and not born 50 years later. An example: He was already a scholar with Gamaliël when Jesus was preaching, and was present with the stoning of Stephen (Acts.7v58). Your info therefor is wrong.
Nothing wrong about Pauls views. He never were reprimanded by any of the other disciples that knew Jesus' teachings intimately.
[/QUOTE]
Paul, Saint (circa ad 3-62), the greatest missionary of Christianity and its first theologian, called Apostle to the Gentiles. (encarta)
Columbia, 6th erdition:
d. A.D. 64? or 67?, the apostle to the Gentiles, b. Tarsus, Asia Minor
The chronology of St. Paul’s life is difficult, but there is general agreement (within a few years) on almost all details. The hypothetical dates given here are according to one chronological system.
The sources for St. Paul’s life are the Acts of the Apostles, in which he is the dominant figure, and the Pauline Epistles. The value of the latter depends on the extent to which they are accepted as genuinely written by the apostle. Romans, First and Second Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, Colossians, First Thessalonians, and Philemon are undoubted; Ephesians and Second Thessalonians are rejected by most critics; First and Second Timothy and Titus are generally considered to be in their present form later and non-Pauline; finally, Hebrews was not written by St. Paul himself.*St. Paul became a fountainhead of Christian doctrine, and countless interpretations have been given of his teachings. Thus, Roman Catholic theology leans upon him at all times, and Martin Luther derived from the Epistle to the Romans his principle of justification by faith alone. There can be no doubt that Paul’s interpretation of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus, his doctrine of the church as the mystical body of Christ, his teaching on law and grace, and his view of justification have been decisive in the formation of the Christian faith. *
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by armughal: *
its not Allah who needs men to explain His words....
its men who need someone to explain to them the divine words....
[/quote]
in other words Allah was careless in selecting his words and made them cryptic or difficult to understand without the use of a teacher??? the Qur'an says otherwise.... but then again when did you guys ever put the Qur'an first.. your holy books were written by Persians.
[quote]
text books, written for students, r always unclear to them, unless the teacher explains the things....
have u even been to school and experienced this????
[/QUOTE]
and here I thought you were one of the fortunate ones to have attained higher studies; where everyone studies themself and the teacher is at the same level as the students.. maybe it's not done that way wherever you are.. but in most advanced countries, that's how they learn.. together.. not one Mullahhead shoving his own interpretations down everyone's throat without any room for disagreement, argument or further research.
let's get back to the argument.. the mod can decide if these posts stay or get removed..
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sadya: *
Oh, of course, then we should just believe a man like Mirza, about whom Allah Himself has prooved in front of everybody that he is a liar.
[/quote]
huh?? since when did this thread become another Ahmadi bashing festival?? i thought we were talking about Jesus's natural death..
[quote]
For example, his predictions didn't come true about his second marriage to an already married lady, Muhammadi Begum; that is when her husband would die, Muhammadi Begum, the widow would marry Mirza Qadiani. (second part of his prediction to which he referred in his writing: "Remember, if the second part of this prediction does not come out, I should be deemed worse than every wicked." Appendix to Anjam-e-Atham) What happened, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani died before his rival Romeo....
What about this:
. a mubahala challenge between Mirza Qadiani and maulana Abdul Haq Ghaznavi (May Allah rest his soul in peace). This was held on Zeeqada 10, 1310 AH in Eidgha of Amritsar. The late Maulana's challenge was on this issue: Mirza and his Mirzais were a coterie of liars, unbelievers, heretics, impostors and dualist-infidels. And Mirza Qadiani had already decleared that:
Who soever is the liar out of the Mubahala participants, perishes during the lifetime of the truthful. (malfuzat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani, vol.9, p440).
In accordance with the above stipulation Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani was the liar as he perished during the life time of Maula Abdul Haq Ghaznavi on may 26, 1908, whereas the Maulana Sahib, (Allah's mercy on him), lived for 9 years after Mirza's death. (Raees-e-Qadian, Vol. 2 p.192 and Tarik-e-Mirza, p. 38)
[/QUOTE]
do u think i give a rat's ass to what Mirza might have said and what the Sunnis thought of him?? for once can't we all just study the Qur'an without wearing that ball'nchain of our own sect??? why can't we be impartial and study the revealed verses as Arabic.. with context.. trying to understand them from within the Qur'an.. can we do that once? just pick up your Qur'an and remove ANY kind of preconceived notions about Jesus from your mind.. you know NOTHING.. now read.. and then try and prove from the Qur'an that he lives..
it's simple.. but it worked for me.. I do not follow the Ahmadiyya sect.. but yes I do believe the Qur'an doesn't say anything about him living forever or returning before the end of time..
TO Sayda:
Your last mail about some allegations on the Promised Messiah is not related to the topic of thread. It would be nice if you open a new thread or put it into an older thread 'A Question to Ahmadis', so that it can be answered appropriately.