Jesus Died a Natural Death - Part 1

[ratilman]

Jesus Died a Natural Death

To believe that Jesus died a natural death is said to be an insult to Jesus,
an offense to the Holy Quran and dissent from the teaching of the Holy
Prophet. Now, it is true that we believe Jesus to have died a natural death.
But it is not true that to believe him to have died is to insult him or to
offend the Holy Quran or to dissent from the teaching of the Holy Prophet.
For the more one ponders over the subject, the more one becomes convinced
that the offenses we are charged with do not follow from our belief in the
death of Jesus. They follow rather from the belief that Jesus did not die
but is alive in Heaven. We are Muslims, and as Muslims our first concern is
to uphold the Greatness of God and the honor of His Prophet. True, we
believe in all the Prophets of God. But our love and our regard for the Holy
Prophet are the highest, for he sacrificed himself for our sake; he carried
our burdens; he invited his own physical death to save us from spiritual
death; he grieved so much for us. He gave up even the slightest comforts for
our sake. He abased himself so that we should stand high. He planned for our
lasting good and prayed for our eternal welfare. He would let his feet swell
through standing long in prayer. Sinless, he prayed to cure us of our sins,
to save us from Hellfire; he would pray till his prayer mat became wet with
tears. He wept till his breast heaved like a boiling pot. He drew unto us
the Mercy of God; he toiled for His pleasure, again for us. He caused us to
be wrapped in the mantle of His Grace, the cloak of His Compassion. He
strove to find for us ways by which we may also please God; means by which
we may also achieve union with Him. What he did for us to make light our
journey to God had not been done before by any prophet for his people.
Fatwas of Kufr only please us. We would rather have the Fatwas than hold
Jesus an equal of God, our Creator, Nourisher, Sustainer, and Guardian, One
Who gives us our daily bread and the knowledge and guidance on which we
depend for our spiritual welfare. Fatwas of Kufr are more welcome to us than
that we should have to believe that Jesus is alive in Heaven without food or
drink, even as God lives for ever without food or drink. We hold Jesus in
honour. But why? Because he is a prophet of God, because God loved him and
he loved God. Our regard for him is due to our regard for God. Can we hold
him above God and dishonor God for his sake? Must we please the Ulema, but
strengthen the hands of Christian missionaries, whose daily occupation is to
find fault with Islam and the Quran? Must we let them think Jesus was God?
For if he was not God, how can he be alive in Heaven? If he was man, why did
he not die like other men? How can we, with our own mouths, say a thing
derogatory to the Unity and Oneness of God? How can we harm the interests of
true faith? The Ulema are free to do what they like; they may incite people
against us, put us to death or stone us. We cannot give up God for Jesus. We
would rather die than say that Jesus is alive in heaven as God’s equal -
Jesus who Christians think is the son of God and for whose sake they detract
from the Oneness and Independence of God. If we had remained ignorant, it
might have been different. But having had our eyes opened by a Divine
Messenger, who has shown us the implications of God’s Oneness, Majesty,
Power, Greatness, Goodness, we cannot do so. Whatever the consequences, we
cannot abandon God for the sake of a human being. If we did so, we cannot
say where we should be. Honor belongs to God and comes from Him. When we
perceive clearly that to believe Jesus to be alive is to insult God, we
cannot regard this belief as true. We do not understand why belief in the
death of Jesus entails an insult to Jesus. Prophets greater than Jesus have
died and their death brought no humiliation to them. So the death of Jesus
cannot be humiliating to him. But if, to suppose the impossible, we are
confronted with the alternatives - God or Jesus - and if we must make a
choice, certainly we will choose God. We feel certain that Jesus himself,
who loved God with his mind, heart and soul, would never have been
reconciled to a position which entails honor to Jesus but dishonour to God
and His Oneness. The Holy Quran teaches us the same:

‘Surely, the Messiah will never disdain to be a servant of Allah, nor will
the angels near unto God]’.9

Death of Jesus taught by the Holy Quran and Hadith

We are bound by the Word of God. We have in the Quran;:

‘And I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them, but since
Thou didst cause me to die, Thou hast been the Watcher over them and Thou
art Witness over all things.’ God in the name of Jesus declares that
Christians became corrupt after the death of Jesus. While he lived, they and
their beliefs remained uncorrupt. Reading this in the Quran, how can we
think Jesus is not dead but alive in Heaven?

And we also read in the Holy Quran:

‘O Jesus! indeed I will cause thee to die and exalt thee to Myself, and will
clear thee ofthe charges of those who disbelieve, and will place those who
follow thee above those who deny thee, until the Day of Resurrection.’'10

Jesus was exalted (or raised) ~o God after his death. The words ‘exalt thee’
or ‘raise thee’ come after the words ‘cause thee to die’. We must observe
the ordinary rules of language. What is mentioned first, must take place
first. But maybe the Ulema know these rules better than God. Maybe they
think that although ‘raising to God’ occurs later in the verse, it should
have been earlier. But God is Wise beyond conception. He knows best how
ideas should be expressed. In His speech, there can be no error, no
deviation from the correct word order. He is our Creator and we are His
creatures. We dare not find errors in His speech. We are ignorant and He is
All-Knowing. How can we point to faults in His speech? But the Ulema seem to
think there could be errors in the speech of God but not in their
understanding of it. We cannot say this; for we see only perdition in such a
thought. While we have eyes, we cannot fall into a pit. While we know, we
must turn away the cup of poison held to our lips. After God, we love only
the Holy Prophet Muhammad (on whom be peace and the blessings of God). He is
the greatest of all prophets, the greatest of all benefactors. No other
human being, prophet or not, has done even a fraction of what the Holy
Prophet has done for us. We can hold no one in greater honour. It is
impossible for us to think that Jesus, the Messiah, is alive in Heaven while
Muhammad, our Holy Prophet, lies buried in the earth. We cannot think so. We
believe that in spiritual rank the Holy Prophet stands much higher than
Jesus. How can it be that God raised Jesus to Heaven on the slightest sign
of danger to his life, but did not raise the Holy Prophet even as high as
the stars when the Holy Prophet was pursued by his enemies from place to
place?

[ratilman]

Jesus Died a Natural Death Part 2

If it is true that Jesus is alive in Heaven, we cannot feel more
dead. We cannot tolerate the thought that our master is dead and buried,
while Jesus is alive and in Heaven. We feel humiliated before Christians.
But thank God, this is not so. God cannot have treated and has not, in fact,
treated our Prophet in this way. God is the Lord of all lords. He himself
called the Holy Prophet the Chief of mankind. Having called the Holy Prophet
the Chief of mankind, he could not have taken more care of Jesus. For the
sake of the Holy Prophet, God shook the world. Whoever thought of
humiliating him, himself met with humiliation. Could God Himself have
disgraced the Prophet and given his enemies the chance to gloat over the
disgrace? The thought that the Holy Prophet Muhammad is buried in the earth
and Jesus of Nazareth is alive in Heaven makes my hair stand on end. I find
it both astonishing and depressing, therefore I find myself declaring, 'No,
God cannot do such a thing.' He loves the Holy Prophet Muhammad more than He
loves anyone else. He could not have let him die and be buried and have let
Jesus ascend to Heaven. If any man deserved to remain alive and to ascend to
Heaven it was our Holy Prophet. If he died in the usual way, other prophets
have died in the same way. Knowing the high rank which the Holy Prophet
Muhammad holds in the Sight of God, we cannot think for a moment that he
could have received at the hands of God treatment inferior to that which
Jesus had had at His hands. We cannot think that at the time of Hijra when
the Holy Prophet sought refuge in the cave Thor, to reach which he had to
mount the shoulders of Abu Bakr, God sent no angels for his rescue; but when
the Jews set out to grapple with Jesus, God raised him to the Fourth Heaven
to save him from the murderous designs of the Jews. In the battle of Ohud,
the Holy Prophet had only a few friends left around him when the enemy
attacked him. God did not send any angel, nor did he create a phantom, so
that the enemy could attack this phantom instead of the Prophet, and break
the phantom's teeth instead of the Prophet's. God let the enemy attack the
Prophet himself and when the Prophet fell down as if dead, the enemy raised
cries of joy and declared they had (God forbid) killed Muhammad, the
Prophet. But in the case of Jesus, God did not let the slightest pain or
discomfort trouble him. As soon as the Jews resolved to lay hold of him, God
raised Jesus to Heaven, and in his place caught hold of one of his enemies
and, making him the same in appearance as Jesus, had this enemy of Jesus put
on the cross instead of Jesus! We are amazed at what can happen to some
people. On the one hand they claim such great love for the Holy Prophet; on
the other, they themselves tend to dishonour and disgrace him. And they do
not stop at this. They go further and award Fatwas of Kufr against those who
refuse to subscribe to beliefs which amount to ranking another one superior
to the Holy Prophet. We wonder what they mean by Kufr. To esteem the Holy
Prophet higher in rank than others, to attribute to him the spiritual
eminence which belongs to him - is it Kufr? Those who hold the Holy Prophet
the highest in love and esteem, are they Kafirs (unbelievers)? If this is
Kufr, then, God be our witness, we value this Kufr many times more than the
Iman (belief) of those who attribute Kufr (unbelief) to us. Very
appropriately did Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the Promised Messiah, express
this thought when he said:

'Intoxicated am I after God with the love of Muhammad. If this be Kufr,
then, by God, I am the most hardened Kafir.'

Some day we must all die, present ourselves before God, and answer for
ourselves. Why should we fear any humans? What harm can come to us from
them? We fear only God and we love only Him. After Him, we love and honour
the Holy Prophet the most. If for the sake of the Holy Prophet we have to
sacrifice the honour, interests and the good things of this world, we will
find it easy enough. But dishonour and disrespect to the Holy Prophet we
cannot bear. Knowing how very holy he was, what spiritual knowledge and
insight he had and how close was his contact with God, we cannot think for a
moment that God loved some other man or prophet more than He loved our Holy
Prophet. If we entertained such a thought we would be more deserving of
punishment than others. We know too well that those who denied the Holy
Prophet challenged him and asked him if he could perform the miracle of
ascent to Heaven. They said:

We will not believe except if- you ascend to Heaven. And we will not believe
in your ascent unless you bring to us from Heaven a Book which we may then
read."11

In reply to this challenge, God did not empower the Holy Prophet to show the
miracle which those who denied the Prophet asked him to show. Instead, God
made the Prophet say:

'Only my God is free from all weaknesses. As for me, I am a mere man.' 12

And yet, as the Maulvis teach, when the enemies of Jesus confronted him with
a similar challenge, God raised him to Heaven. When the Holy Prophet is
challenged and asked to ascend to Heaven, ascent to Heaven is declared by
God to be inconsistent with humanity. But when Jesus is similarly
challenged, he is raised to Heaven without the least hesitation. If this be
true, will it not follow that Jesus was not man but God? We seek refuge with
God from this wild thought. Will it not imply that Jesus was spiritually
superior to our Holy Prophet and more dearly loved by God? But we know, and
it is as evident as the sun, that the Holy Prophet Muhammad is the best, the
highest, in the hierarchy of prophets. Knowing this, how can we think that
the Holy Prophet should not rise to Heaven but instead die in the normal way
and be buried here on this earth, while Jesus should go to Heaven and remain
alive for these two thousand years? Now, it is not merely that our feeling
for the Holy Prophet is strong. It is a question also of his truth, the
truth of his claims. Did not the Holy Prophet say:

'If Moses and Jesus had been alive, they would have had to believe in me and
follow me.'l3

If Jesus is alive, the claim of the Holy Prophet that in that case Jesus
would have had to follow him has to be set down as false. The Holy Prophet's
words are significant and clear. If, says he, Moses and Jesus were alive.
This 'if' means that the two are not alive. Moses is not alive, nor is
Jesus. This is an important declaration by the Holy Prophet bearing on the
subject. After hearing this declaration, no true follower of the Prophet can
think that Jesus is alive in Heaven, because, if Jesus is alive, this
declaration of the Holy Prophet turns out to be false, as also his knowledge
of the subject. For is not Jesus dead according to him? There is another
important statement by the Holy Prophet. During his last illness, the Holy
Prophet said to his daughter Fatima:

'Once in every year, Gabriel recited the Quran to me. This year he recited
twice. He also told me that every succeeding prophet has lived to half the
age of his predecessor. He told me that Jesus. son of Mary, lived to a
hundred and twenty years. Therefore, I think, I may live to about sixty
years.'14

The statement is an inspired one. The Holy Prophet does not say anything on
his Own, but reports what he received from Gabriel the angel of revelation.
The important part of the statement is that Jesus lived to a hundred and
twenty years. According to the New Testament records, Jesus was about
thirty-two or thirty-three years old when the event of the Cross took place
and Jesus 'ascended' to Heaven. If Jesus really did 'ascend', his age up to
the time of the Holy Prophet comes to about six hundred years, not a hundred
and twenty. If what the Holy Prophet received from Gabriel is true, the Holy
Prophet should have lived for at least three hundred years. But he lived
only for sixty-three years. Yet, according to Gabriel Jesus lived for a
hundred and twenty years. This important statement by the Holy Prophet
proves that to think Jesus alive is against the teaching of the Holy
Prophet, against what was revealed to him by God. In view of all this, how
can we be persuaded to believe that Jesus is alive? How can we deny anything
which the Holy Prophet has taught so clearly?

Companions of the Holy Prophet agreed on the death of Jesus

It is said sarcastically that for thirteen hundred years nobody but
ourselves could spot the truth about the death of Jesus. All the doctors and
teachers of Islam remained ignorant of it. The suggestion is that the
consensus of early Muslims does not favour the view which we teach on the
subject. But those who indulge in this sarcasm forget that the first
exponents of Islam were the Companions of the Holy Prophet. The Companions
first expounded the beliefs and practices of Islam to others. Then these
others became the teachers of Islam, spreading to other parts of the world.
Now as far as the Companions are concerned, they were united in teaching
what we think today about Jesus. And could they have taught anything else?
Could they have taught a belief derogatory to the Holy Prophet? Not only are
the Companions one with us, but the first formal affirmation which the
Companions of the Holy Prophet collectively resolved on was the truth of the
death of Jesus. The first Ijma of the Companions set its seal on his death.

[ratilman]

Jesus Died a Natural Death Part 3

Jesus Died a Natural Death Part 3

For in the recorded Traditions we find that when the Holy Prophet died, the
Companions were prostrated with grief They could not move, nor utter a word.
Some were so deeply affected that they died a few days later, unable to bear
the pangs of separation. Omar, indeed, was so afflicted by grief that he
made up his mind not to believe that the Prophet had died. He unsheathed his
sword and declared that whoever said the Prophet was dead would lose his
head. He began to say that the Holy Prophet had disappeared from their midst
temporarily, even as Moses had disappeared on a Call from God. Moses
returned to his people after forty days, and so would the Holy Prophet. On
his return, the Holy Prophet would call to account all those who had said
unworthy things about him and had behaved hypocritically towards him. He
would even put them to death or order their crucifixion. Omar was solemn and
determined. None of the Companions dared to resist and deny what he said.
Some were even persuaded by Omar's declaration. They began to think the
Prophet had not died. Because of this, their dejection changed to delight.
The signs of it were on their faces. Those who had their heads bowed with
grief raised their heads. Others, who were not so overcome by grief and who
could also see far into the future, sent out one of their number to fetch
Abu Bakr. Abu Bakr was not in Medina when the Holy Prophet died. The Holy
Prophet had permitted him to go, because his condition seemed to have
improved. This Companion had hardly left the town when he saw Abu Bakr
coming. On seeing Abu Bakr, the Companion could not contain himself Tears
rolled down his cheeks. No words were necessary. Abu Bakr understood what
had happened. He asked the Companion, 'Has the Prophet died?' In reply, the
Companion not only confirmed the sad news but also told Abu Bakr what Omar
had been saying, that 'whoever should say the Prophet had died would lose
his head!' Abu Bakr heard this and at once made for the place where the Holy
Prophet's dead body lay. He lifted the mantle which covered him and knew at
once that he had died. The pain of separation from his beloved friend and
leader made his eyes wet. He bent low and kissed the Prophet's forehead and
said:

'By God, you will not suffer more than one death. The loss mankind have
suffered by your death is greater than the loss they suffered by the death
of any other prophet. You need no praises, and mourning cannot reduce the
pangs of separation. If we could but avert your end, we would have done so,
with our lives.'

Abu Bakr said this, and covered the Prophet's face; then he went to the spot
where Omar was speaking to the Companions. Omar, of course, was telling them
that the Prophet had not died, but had only disappeared temporarily. Abu
Bakr asked Omar to stop for a time and let him speak to the assembly. Omar
did not stop but went on. Abu Bakr turned to some of the Companions and
started telling them that the Holy Prophet had really died. Other Companions
turned to Abu Bakr and began to listen to him. Omar also was compelled to
listen. Abu Bakr recited from the Holy Quran:

'The Holy Prophet is but a prophet. There have been prophets before him and
they had all died. If he also should die or be put to death, would they turn
back upon him?'15

'Thou (O Muhammad) art surely going to die and they surely are going to
die.'l6

Having recited these verses, he went on to say:

'O ye men, whoever amongst you worshipped Muhammad, let him know that
Muhammad is dead, and whoever amongst you worshipped Allah, let him know
that Allah is Living, there is no death for Him '17

When Abu Bakr recited the verses of the Holy Quran and pointed to their
meaning, the Companions realized what had happened. The Prophet had died.
They began to cry. Omar is reported to have said that when Abu Bakr recited
the verses out of the Holy Quran, and their meaning suddenly dawned upon
him, it seemed as though the verses had been revealed on that day, at that
moment. His legs could no longer support him. He staggered and fell down in
a paroxysm of grief. This account of what passed between the Companions at
the Holy Prophet's death proves three important things: Firstly, it proves
that the first formal and collective expression of opinion upon which the
Companions resolved after the death of the Holy Prophet was that all
prophets before the Holy Prophet had died. There was no exception. If the
Companions present on this solemn occasion thought that some earlier
prophets had not died, they would have stood up and pointed to the
exceptions. They could have said that at least Jesus had been alive in
Heaven for six hundred years. It was wrong to say that all the earlier
prophets had died. If some could remain alive, why not the Holy Prophet?
Secondly, it proves that the Companions' belief that the earlier prophets
had died was not a mere matter of opinion: it was a truth recorded in the
Holy Quran and taught clearly by the Holy Book. When Abu Bakr recited the
verses, the Companions received them without demur. If the truth of the
death of the earlier prophets was not contained in these verses, they could
have said that, although the earlier prophets had really died, the verses
recited by Abu Bakr were not relevant. The fact, therefore, that Abu Bakr
recited the verse 'and there had been [other] prophets before him' to prove
the death of earlier prophets, and the fact that the Companions, who heard
this verse and heard Abu Bakr's argument based upon the verse, not only
remained silent but began to rejoice over it and went about the town
reciting it, proved beyond doubt that the Companions agreed entirely with
Abu Bakr's interpretation of the verse. Thirdly, it proves that whether or
not the Companions believed in the death of other prophets, they certainly
did not think that Jesus was alive in Heaven. All accounts of this important
incident and the important speeches made on this occasion show that even
Omar, in the height of his excitement, threatening to kill those who should
say the Prophet had died, could cite the analogy only of Moses who
disappeared for forty days from amongst his people. Even Omar did not cite
the analogy of Jesus. If the Companions had believed That Jesus was alive in
Heaven, could not Omar, or the Companions who thought like him, have cited
the analogy of Jesus? The fact that they cited only the analogy of Moses
proves that they did not believe That Jesus had not died, or that he had
even had an experience similar to that of Moses.

Family of the Holy Prophet agreed on the death of Jesus

Besides this unanimity of opinion among the Companions, opinion held in the
family of the Holy Prophet also supports the belief that Jesus died in the
normal way. Imam Hasan, recounting the events relating to the death of
Hazrat Ali, is reported to have said:

'The man who has died today is without an equal in many respects. He had
none like him either amongst his predecessors or among his successors. When
the Holy Prophet sent him to battle, he had Gabriel on his right and Michael
on his left to assist him. He never returned from a battle except as victor.
He left seven hundred Derhams as a bequest. He had saved this to purchase a
slave's freedom. He died during the twenty-seventh night of the month of
Ramadhan, the same night that the spirit of Jesus was raised to Heaven.'18

from this remark of Imam Hasan it appears that even according to the family
of the Holy Prophet Jesus died in the ordinary way. Unless they believed
this, Imam Hasan could not have said that Hazrat Ali died the same night
that Jesus's spirit ascended to Heaven. Besides the Companions of the Holy
Prophet and his family, later doctors of religion have also testified to the
death of Jesus. They were devotees of the Holy Quran, of the utterances of
the Holy Prophet, of opinions held by the Companions and by the family of
the Holy Prophet. It seems that whether or not Jesus had died did not strike
them as a very important question. Therefore they did not pronounce on the
question as such. Nor have their views on the subject been preserved. But as
far as the recorded opinions of the later doctors of Islam go, these leave
no doubt that even they believed Jesus had died. It is recorded in
Majma-al-Bahar that, according to Imam Malik, Jesus died in the natural way.
In short, the Holy Quran, the Traditions, the consensus of opinion among the
Companions and the family of the Holy Prophet, and the opinions of the
doctors of Islam all support belief in the death of Jesus. All of them teach
that Jesus died like all mortals. It is wrong, therefore, to say that by
attributing death to Jesus we dishonour Jesus, and that therefore by
implication we deny the Holy Quran and the Traditions of the Holy Prophet.
We do not dishonour Jesus. Instead of dishonouring Jesus, we have a genuine
conception of the Oneness of God and point to the high spiritual rank to
which our Holy Prophet belongs. We honour Jesus, because Jesus himself would
not have subscribed to a belief which is derogatory to the conception of the
Oneness of God; which helps shirk (associating others with God), and
detracts from the spiritual status of the Holy Prophet.

Now, dear reader, you can see for yourself who is in the right: we or our
opponents. Is it for them to be offended by us, or for us to be offended by
them? They set up a man as the equal of God. They propose a belief which
entails indignity to the Holy Prophet; it is they who lend support to the
enemies of Islam, they who weaken Islam.

Jesus Died a Natural Death Part 3

[Islamabad]

you are a liar. Long cut and paste!

[fatehahmad]

Mr. Islamabad

What if he cuts and paste an article. At least he is using Quran and Hadith to prove his point. and in return you can only say 'You are a liear!'. Come on grow up and answer him using Quran and Hadith.

[Seminole]

Far be it from me to get in a contest on who was the best prophet. I believe that is only for God to judge. I thought it was wrong to distinguish between the prophets.

I am curious as to why this author does not consider Jesus Christ at least an equal to Muhammed in the eyes of God. Who is this author, is it ratilman?

Did not Jesus also do these things:

*for he sacrificed himself for our sake; he carried our burdens; he invited his own physical death to save us from spiritual death; he grieved so much for us. He gave up even the slightest comforts for
our sake. He abased himself so that we should stand high. He planned for our lasting good and prayed for our eternal welfare. He would let his feet swell through standing long in prayer. Sinless, he prayed to cure us of our sins, to save us from Hellfire; he would pray till his prayer mat became wet with tears. He wept till his breast heaved like a boiling pot. He drew unto us the Mercy of God; he toiled for His pleasure, again for us. He caused us to be wrapped in the mantle of His Grace, the cloak of His Compassion. He strove to find for us ways by which we may also please God; means by which we may also achieve union with Him. What he did for us to make light our journey to God had not been done before by any prophet for his people. *

Muslims have told me in the past that they believed Jesus was the only sinless man to have walked the earth. How are statements such as "the spiritual rank of the Holy Prophet stands much higher than Jesus" justified? Whether or not you believe Jesus to be the Son of God, how can you deny his righteousness? He never killed anyone, or took any wives. He sacrificed his whole life, denying himself the carnal pleasures other prophets did not. He displayed kindness, compassion, understanding, love and acceptance more than any human being that has walked the earth.

It seems this author wants to degrade Jesus and elevate the Holy Prophet to justify his beliefs and negate Christianity. There is no reason for Muslims to be jealous of the righteousness of Jesus. I am no Muslims scholar, but I would think this article would make Allah angry.

[fatehahmad]

Mr. Seminole.

We are not the judge that who is the greatest prophet of all. We believe that Allah is the only judge and in numerous places in Holy Quran, Allah has shown us that who is the greatest of them all. He is none other than the 'Rehmat-tulil-Alameen' Holy Prophet (Peace be upon him).

If any Muslim who have told you that Jesus is the only sinless person ever walked on this earth, then I am afraid this Muslim doesn't have full knowledge of the life of the Holy Prophet.

The Author in the topic above is not negating Christianity. Religion is given to mankind in an evolutionary state and the highest poing in that hierarchy is that of the Holy Prophet. We consider Jesus to be a just prophet of God sent to the people of Bani Israel for reform.

About righteousness you wrote that as Jesus hasn't killed anybody therefore he must be the most righteous prophet of them all. Holy Prophet (Peace be upon him) never killed an innocent soul. And why taking a wife dents anybody's righteousness. Please explain.

[hiccup]

After being dragged through town and beated, tortured, humiliated, nailed to a cross for hours, it is only natural that he died.
A natural death, you see???
(a jk btw )

[fatehahmad]

Mr. Hiccup,

I don't know whether you believe in Holy Quran or not! But if you read the Holy Quran, you'll come to the conclusion that the Jews was not able to kill or crucify Jesus.

I believe that he died a natural death but not at that particular time.

[Seminole]

I'm not going to get in a pissing contest with "my prophet was better than your prophet". That is a personal decision for each person to make. I wouldn't insult someone at that level. I can only tell you why I have my own thoughts.

Jesus did not indulge in the carnal pleasures and lustful thoughts that come with taking wives. Does not one misguided lustful thought or glance indicate a sin?

Jesus did not experience the anger, violence or inflict pain on others that comes when one is in battle and killing others. He preached to love your enemies and turn the other cheek - a very hard thing for man to do, but in my opinion, the most righteous path in the eyes of God. Would not the feeling of satisfaction, superiority or self-righteousness that comes with taking another person's life indicate sinful thoughts? What about the innocent lives lost during battles that occur?

[fatehahmad]

Mr. Seminole.

Thats perfect with me that Jesus has the highest order of righteousness in your eyes.

Muslims believe that only Allah knows who is truely righteous or not. Its not for a human to set standards from which he will judge the righteousness of another person or even a prophet. The standard you mentioned (war, marriage etc.) may be the standard enought to judge the righteousness of a prophet but according to majority of muslim, this authority resides with the creature of this universe, ALLAH.

And What Allah has told us in Quran, I believe Holy Prophet (Peace be upon him) to be the most righteous.

I think we should now end this discussion and move to the original point of discussion that is the natural death of Jesus.

[Seminole]

That's fine, but over half the article uses the supposed superiority of Muhammed over Jesus as the basis for his argument that Jesus must have died a natural death.

[Destino]

To Seminole;

Jesus was not the only "sinless person" who ever walked on earth. Infact there have been around 124000 Prophets, who were Men of God.

The greatness of any Prophet comes from the greatness and universality of the message he delivers..Its the magnitude of responsibility and the aid of God, to help him to spread his message that makes any Prophet better then the other.

But we are taught by Quran not to differentiate between the Prophets as they are the messengers of the same God, spreading the same message of love and tolerance.

[Seminole]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Destino: *
Jesus was not the only "sinless person" who ever walked on earth. Infact there have been around 124000 Prophets, who were Men of God.

[/QUOTE]
And all those 124,000 'prophets' were supposedly sinless? Where does it say that? However pious these men were -- they were still just men. Deficiencies reside in man, whatever his rank, status or measure of piety and all have sinned, starting with Adam. In the Bible and the Quran prophets like Abraham, Moses, Noah and David asked God for forgiveness.

I think our difference of opinion on this subject is based on different intepretations of 'sin'. Christian thought is that all men have sinned and fallen short of God's standard of perfection. Sin is not just our actions (murder, theft, adultery, etc.) but also our inner thoughts, desires and motives (pride, lust, greed, hatred, selfishness, self-righteousness, etc.) Can you honestly say that any man other than Christ was pure and free from these sins?

[Mr_Fraudia]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
That's fine, but over half the article uses the supposed superiority of Muhammed over Jesus as the basis for his argument that Jesus must have died a natural death.
[/QUOTE]

Seminole

but the article above notes in its first few paragraphs that what it is saying is contrary to what most muslims believe anyways.

[Mr_Fraudia]

Seminole

2: 136/137. Say ye, `We believe in ALLAH and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael, and Isaac and Jacob and his children and what was given to Moses and Jesus, and what was given to all other Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them; and to HIM we submit ourselves.'

[002.285] The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His Books, and His Messengers. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His Messengers." And they say: "We hear, and we obey, (we seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."

Now people can put their own personal spins on it as they choose.

[fatehahmad]

Mr. Seminole

FIrst of all you have to prove that only Jesus is the one who is free from Sin. What is the basis of your assumption?

Isn't this the christian believe that the pain and suffering some one suffer is because of his inherited sins? Correct me if I am wrong!

[sholay]

Fraudia has already given the ayats which confirm that all Prophets/ Messengers are equal and no distinction should be made between them.

Furthermore, the Qur'aan also states that if Allah was to punish all living beings on earth for their sins, not one living soul would be left.

Muslims do not or should not get into a my prophet v your prophet scenario, as this would directly contradict the Qur'aan.

Getting onto the topic, I do not accept Jesus was killled or crucified as the Qur'aan testifies to this. As I have stated many a time, the Qur'aan is the only Divine scripture on earth that is unchanged and in it's original format, therefore we do have a very valid source for our stance.

Ironically, the Qur'aan also dedicates one whole chapter to Mary mother of Jesus and the family of Imraan from where Jesus descends after Isaac that is.

Jesus is a great Prophet and always will be, the same as all the other Prophets.

[Seminole]

Thanks Fraudz and Sholay for your posts, they reflect what I thought was the Muslim point of view. I do not mean to belittle anyone's prophets, it's just that this post contained invidious distractions in an attempt to exalt Muhammed. It seemed real childish and not worthy of being said by someone (whoever wrote it) who obviously thinks of himself to be quite pious and sure of himself.

[armughal]

i dint care to read anything, the topic was enuff....

JESUS did not die, nethier naturally nor supernaturally....

case closed....