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61

Ibrahim says : Salaams to all

Filhaal dear, It is sad, that you have no option but to try and change the subject . All I said was that you might even mislead your own parents by trying to teach them how to suck their thumb which is an absurd and impossible thing. , which is what you are doing by declaring a hadith false in this thread . I did not in anyway insult your parents or anyone for that matter except reveal what you are trying to do by claiming Allah (swt) did not reveal the future to his chosen Prophets. .
For Godfs sake grow up and THINK before you respond!

Ibrahim says : Still donft get it do you? The Christians believe Christ carried a Cross and approved eating Pork for Christians , hence when he will be sent back and will deny such things by breaking the cross and killing a pig PLUS whatever Allah (swt) had willed, it simply means he denies the Christian way and what they have fabricated against him. Now the foolish will ask which cross, which pig and so forth but those, who have common sense will be able to comprehend any cross and any pig will establish what he intended to convey in the presence of his followers.

Ibrahim says : Only the ignorant will be led to thinking that the understanding of the Qurfan is based on the interpretation or misinterpretation of a few words. The return of Christ had been foretold and established by Allah (swt) in the Qurfan , hadiths as well as the Bible. His very birth has been so designed to accommodate this SIGN for mankid, but the ahmadiafs will always propagate their own follies as per their whims and fancies, which has nothing to do with Islam which is why they were declared as Non Muslims.

Now I already asked to provide the evidence from the Qurfan against the Bible, IF it had been in error concerning the ascension of Christ , why have you not produced it???

Ibrahim says: Filhaal so now you are going to outright lie too???

Show me where you have presented the evidence for your under mentioned statements

  1. you claimed a hadith (saying of the Prophet of a future event = prophecy) as Blasphemous

  2. you claimed it was illogical

  3. you claimed the Prophet (pbuh) NEVER said it , (meaning you had witnesses it yourself)

  4. you claimed that hadith contradicts the Qurfan

  5. now you say the Prophets will NEVER prophecy ( not know anything that will happen in the future)

** This is the eighth time on this thread I have asked you for evidence??** Do you not realize you HANGED yourself already and established beyond doubt that you are a deviant???

Was salaam
Ibrahim

7: 40 To those who reject Our signs and treat them with arrogance no opening will there be of the gates of heaven ** nor will they enter the garden until the camel can pass through the eye of the needle: ** such is Our reward for those in sin.

62

salaam to all,

[quote]

Filhaal dear, It is sad, that you have no option but to try and change the subject . All I said was that you might even
mislead your own parents by trying to teach them how to suck their thumb which is an absurd and impossible thing. ,
which is what you are doing by declaring a hadith false in this thread . I did not in anyway insult your parents or
anyone for that matter except reveal what you are trying to do by claiming Allah (swt) did not reveal the future to
his chosen Prophets.
[/quote]

first you say such a bad thing then you claim that it was not insulting!! for you these kinds of things may-be normal.
this just shows what kind of upbringing you have had!!

[quote]

Ibrahim says : Still donft get it do you? The Christians believe Christ carried a Cross and approved eating Pork for
Christians , hence when he will be sent back and will deny such things by breaking the cross and killing a pig PLUS
whatever Allah (swt) had willed, it simply means he denies the Christian way and what they have fabricated against
him. Now the foolish will ask which cross, which pig and so forth but those, who have common sense will be able to
comprehend any cross and any pig will establish what he intended to convey in the presence of his followers.
[/quote]

filhaal:
this same common sense tells a sensible person that a pig and a cross are not standing in the way of ISLAM.
BTW. the second part on jizya is even less logical. In which country are non-muslims paying this tax to muslims. Looking at the situation today there are many more muslims under non-muslim protection. also, in that hadith was mentioned "abandance of money" every sensible person will understand that abandance of money is not the solution for justice in the world.

Please, think and UNDERSTAND before you respond!!

[quote]

Now I already asked to provide the evidence from the Qurfan against the Bible, IF it had been in error concerning
the ascension of Christ , why have you not produced it???

[/quote]

i want to proceed in a stepwise manner, and i am asking you time and again what the meaning of these words are (mutawaffika rafifuka). but you donot have an answer!!
if you understand these two words then we will proceed!!
remember step by step do not try to run, otherwise you will fall (further)!!

[quote]

His very birth has been so designed to accommodate this SIGN
for mankid, but the ahmadiafs will always propagate their own follies as per their whims and fancies, which has
nothing to do with Islam which is why they were declared as Non Muslims.

[/quote]

who is talking about the ahmadia belief.
as i said before i am not a ahmadia, or sunni, shia, for that matter, I AM A MUSLIM!!
BTW do you really know what a MUSLIM is.
so please pick up your copy of the QURAN and understand from within the QURAN what the definition of "muslim' is before you start calling others deviater or non-muslims!!

63

Ibrahim, from an economic point of view ‘abundance of money’ will mean that because of its abindance money will loose its value and thus become valueless: as a result despite abundance of money ppl will still not be able to buy things

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think about it!

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64

Which economic point of view are you talking about here? Greek? Scholastic? Mercantilist? Classical? Keynesian? Neo-Classical? Austrian? Marxist? Shackle’s theroy of dynamics and change? Leijonhevud’s revised Keynesianism?

The hadith refers to an abundance of wealth, not an increase in notes and coinage or other promisary notes, you could have a reduction in the number of economic players allowing for the resources to be shared evenly, you could have an increase in the resources, you could have a revolution where all the resources are distributed evenly, dammit, Worldcom could be repeated the world over and we could be living under a totally new system where inflation/deflation/hyperinflation are irrelevant terms - you would in fact be a very very very naive person to think that the economic model that you base your theories upon are accurate and applicable under all conditions and for all time. Does the term ceterus paribus not ring any bells for you?

Khiar I have digressed much and that is not the point.

My point is that rather looking at the narration in the context it has been revealed, you pick bones and make lame excuses to reject it, going to the extent of mocking the Nabi.

I assume that you laugh and roll your eyes also at the Qur’anic ayahs that talk of the mountains being cleared away on the day of judgement, that Adam was made from the earth, the Arsh and the Kursi of Allah etc - thats how your logic works does it not?

This is what the kuffar did, they could not understand the concept of the miraj, so they accused the Nabi of being a mad-man possessed by a demon.

I ask you all again, especially Filhal since he/she has not answered what I asked him/her - Please tell me who amongst the earlier
muslims held the opinions that you espouse, namely that other than the Qur’an there is no guidance, and that the Nabi did not fortell about any of the unseen or events to come?

Surely there must have been some muslims in the past who posessed intellect, sarcasm and wit at a level at least a tenth of yours? Not even one? Or is it the case that it has taken nearly 1500 years for the first true muslims to be born and everyone else before you was misguided?

Show me where your not the first muslims to believe and behave this way, that the first generations did this also, and you can count me into your bandwagon…

Consider this a challenge to legitimise your methodology and yes beat Ibrahim and others.

[This message has been edited by Alpha1 (edited August 01, 2002).]

65

.

[This message has been edited by NeSCio (edited August 01, 2002).]

66

definitely agreeing with alpha here. The sheer fact that no one in history has followed this concept is enough to repute it. Since someone atleast in history must've believe in it, and some history of that time must be present from the guided companions to support that point of view..

returning to the base by claiming to follow the quran only, is a catch and attractive concept, but thats about it.

67

^how do you know that the earliest muslims did those things which are mentioned in the hadith??? there no other way to find out except reading those hadith, and that IS the core issue here: what is the position of those hadith in Islam????

you cannot say that the earliest muslims did everything according to those hadith and then trying to prove it by showing those hadith! You should come with other proof. And the only thing we can revert to is the Quran, and as stated numerous of times, there are a lot of things in the Hadith which even cannot be deduced indirectly from the quran!

68

nescio,

why dont you give reading a chance? have you read the sciences of rijal? you keep saying how hadith is this and that but what have you really studied about the science of hadith? apart from just looking at a random hadith and deriving your conclusions based on your human(limited) logic.. remember our logic is highly dictated by our time surroundings and circumstance. Basically so much effort has gone into the preservation of hadith that one who suddenly comes in to reject all of them, the claim falls flat on the face right there and then.

for every questionable hadith out there, why dont you question someone who's knowledgable about the sciences of hadith?

69

[quote]
Originally posted by google:
** I am not a scholar or anything like that ...

The tafsir (commentary) says "his death" is referring to death of Isa Al-Masih (as). Implying it as "none of the people" makes the whole verse illogical.

Who in the world believes Isa Al-Masih is prophet of Allah swt? No one except us Muslim. And we are not Ahle Kitab (as referred by that verse). Then to whom or when was that verse ever applicable**
[/quote]

google,

I'll reproduce here the translation and brief commentary on the verse by Muhammad Asad. I chose him specifically because:

  1. He's a Jewish Convert and is very well aware of the Judeo-Christian beliefs

  2. He's extremely well versed in Qur'anic Arabic, having spent a lot of time learning it directly from the tribal sources in that region.

  3. He derives heavily from 'ahl-e-sunna' historians of the likes of Ibn-Ishaq, Ibn-Khatir, Tabari etc. and many a times draws on traditions so you can say he belongs to 'your' camp.

Muhammad Asad

(4:159) Yet there is not one of the followers of earlier revelations who does not, at the moment of his death, grasp the truth about Jesus and on the Day of Resurrection he (Jesus himself) shall bear a witness to the truth against them.

Commentary by Muhammad Asad: "who does not believe in him before his death". According to this verse, all believing Jews and Christians realize at the moment of their death that Jesus was truly a prophet of God - having been neither an imposter nor "the son of God" (Zamakhshari)

[quote]
Regarding Jesus being a witness on the Day of Judgment. How can someone be a witness without witnessing the event?? (*That is if you believe Jesus is dead and will not return).
[/quote]

This 'witnessing' is about the 'oneness of Allah' and no one being a partner with him.

All prophets will be a witness against their nations.

[33:45] O Prophet! surely We have sent you as a witness, and as a bearer of good news and as a warner.

PakistaniAbroad: Thus Jesus will only bear witness to the truth that he was NOT the Son of God but a mortal messenger, like the others which have passed before him.

[This message has been edited by PakistaniAbroad (edited August 01, 2002).]

70

Perhaps I used the word ‘spiritual’ incorrectly. The ‘raising’ is to be taken metaphorically. It’s like ‘raising the status of someone’ or ‘elevating someone to a higher status’.

Once again, cross check the meaning of the word raafiuka from the Qur’an and u’d understand it’s not always a physical act.

I’m not surprised that Christians believe Christ shall return.. afterall majority of hadith is borrowed wholesale from Judeo-Christian teachings.

FWIW Christianity wasn’t supposed to happen.. Christ was sent from within the Jews to fix what had went wrong. A religion based on him was only started after his death.

Now YOU tell me why Christians also believe that he rose the third day and in the process left his linen wrappings behind(spirits don’t need to unwrap themselves before they move) and was seen by his apostles in flesh:

John 20:24-30 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore were saying to him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I shall see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.” And after eight days again His disciples were inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst, and said, “Peace be with you.” 27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand, and put it into My side; and be not unbelieving, but believing.” 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”

PakistaniAbroad: If you are going to cross check your religion with existing religions you’ll only end up more confused. Stick to the Qur’an as truth and the answers will come to you together with an exposition of the lies that organized religions have been telling you all along.

Try.. it isn’t too difficult

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

71

PA

You seem to be once again misunderstanding the point!!!

There is no cross referencing with other religions. The mere fact is that Christians also believe in the return of Jesus and they do NOT follow any A'Hadeeth. This is where you get stuck and claim that the A'Hadeeth's are a derivative of the Bible.

Whatever next!

I will break it down for you again, in a different format:

Contrary to what most people believe, Jesus was not crucified and killed nor did he die for any other reason. The Qur'an tells us that they did not kill him and they did not crucify him and that Allah raised him up to Him.

In none of the verses, is there an actual reference to his murder or that he was killed, apart from the verse (ayah) which denies that it happened. Furthermore, the Qur'an acquaints us with some events from the life of Jesus (as) which have not yet happened. Thus, his second coming to earth is a prerequisite for these events to happen. There is no doubt that the Qur'an's revelations will surely happen.

Despite this, however, many people like you and Filhaal assume that Jesus (as) passed away some thousands of years ago and that thus it is unlikely that he will return.

This is a misconception arising from lack of knowledge about the Qur'an and the Sunnah. A careful scrutiny of the Qur'an will render an accurate understanding of the verses about Jesus (as) possible.

Now try and take real good note of the following:

"Nothing did I tell them beyond what You did bid me to say: ‘Worship God, who is my Sustainer as well as your Sustainer’ And I bore witness to what they did as long as I dwelt in their midst: but since You have caused me to die (tawaffa), You alone have been their keeper: for You are witness unto everything. (Surat al-Ma’idah: 117)

However, the Arabic meanings of the verses above show that the Prophet Jesus (as) did not die in the sense we know. In Arabic the word which is translated in these verses as "to die" is "tawaffa" and comes from the root "wafa – to fulfil". Tawaffa does not actually mean "death" but the act of "taking the self back" either in sleep or in death. From the Qur'an again, we understand that "taking the self back" does not necessarily mean death. For instance in a verse in which the word "tawaffa" is used, it is not the death of a human being that is meant but "taking back his self in his sleep":

It is He Who takes you back to Himself (yatawaffakum) at night, while knowing the things you perpetrate by day, and then wakes you up again, so that a specified term may be fulfilled. Then you will return to Him. Then He will inform you about what you did. (Surat al-An’am: 60)

The word used for "take back" in this verse is the same as the one used in Surah Al ‘Imran 55. In other words, in both verses, the word "tawaffa" is used and it is obvious that one does not die in one’s sleep. Therefore, what is meant here is, again, "taking the self back."The same is also true for the following verse:

Allah takes back people’s selves (tawaffa) when their death arrives and those who have not yet died, while they are asleep. He keeps hold of those whose death has been decreed and sends the others back for a specified term. There are certainly Signs in that for people who reflect. (Surat az-Zumar: 42)

As these verses suggest, Allah takes back the self of the one who is asleep, yet He sends the selves of those whose deaths have yet not been decreed. In this context, in one's sleep one does not die, in the sense in which we perceive death. Only for a temporary period, the self leaves the body and remains in another dimension. When we wake up, the self returns to the body.

Imam al-Qurtubi makes clear that there are three meanings to the term ‘wafat’: the wafat of death, the wafat of sleep, and last, the wafat of being raised up to Allah, as in the case of Sayyiduna ‘Isa (as).To conclude, we can say that Jesus (as) may have been in a special state, raised up to the presence of Allah. What he actually experienced was not death in the sense with which we are familiar, but merely a departure from this dimension. Surely, Allah knows best.

From what has been related so far, it is clear that Jesus (as) did not die but was raised to the presence of Allah. However, there is one more point that is underlined by the Qur'an: Jesus (as) will come back to earth.The Qur'an explicitly declares the return of Jesus (as) to earth.

Surah Al ‘Imran 55 is one of the verses indicating that Jesus (as) will come back:

When Allah said, "‘Isa, I will take you back and raise you up to Me and purify you of those who are disbelievers. And I will place the people who follow you above those who are disbelievers until the Day of Rising.
Then you will all return to Me, and I will judge between you regarding the things about which you differed. (Surah Al ‘Imran: 55)

The statement in the verse, "And I will place the people who follow you above those who are disbelievers until the Day of Rising" is important. Here, there is reference to a group strictly adhering to Jesus (as) and who will be kept above the disbelievers until the Day of Judgement. Well, who are these adherents, then? Are they the disciples who lived in the time of Jesus or are they the Christians of today? During his lifetime the followers of Jesus (as) were few. After his death, the essence of the religion degenerated rapidly. Furthermore, the people known as the disciples faced serious pressure throughout their lives. During the succeeding two centuries, having no political power, those Christians having faith in Jesus (as) were also oppressed. In this case, it is not possible to say that early Christians or their successors during these periods were physically superior to the disbelievers in the world. We might logically think that this verse does not refer to them. When we look at the Christians of today, on the other hand, we notice that the essence of Christianity has changed a lot and it is quite different from what Jesus (as) originally brought to mankind. Christians embraced the perverted belief that suggests that Jesus (as) is the son of God and similarly held the doctrine of the trinity (The Father, Son and the Holy Spirit). In this case, it is flawed to accept the Christians of today as the adherents of Jesus (as). In many verses of the Qur'an Allah states that those having faith in the trinity certainly are disbelievers:

Need I say more!!

I doubt it!

72

[quote]
Originally posted by Alpha1:

Over the past millenia and a half or so there have been a multitude of opinions, people who have differed on the fundemental principles of this religion. Im not talking about superficial differences but differences in aqeedah. How is the common person to differentiate between all of these? How does a person who is not an alim distinguish what is right from what is wrong?

I'll give you an example, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed to be following the Qur'an and yet he declared the status of Nabowat upon himself. The Jahmiyah claimed to follow the Qur'an, the Ashariya, the Rafidah, and so on and so on. All these different groups came and said that yes we are following the Kitab of Allah according to their own interpretation and understanding.

My freind, speech is a wonderful yet decietful thing, many people will convince you that black is white and the masses have gone along with it many a time - the Nazis convinced the German populas that the Jews were to be hated and exterminated.

Islam is a completed religion, one that has been perfected by the Allmighty. Observe:

Al-Ma'idah - 5:3
Forbidden to you (for food) are: Al-Maytatah (the dead animals - cattle-beast not slaughtered), blood, the flesh of swine, and the meat of that which has been slaughtered as a sacrifice for others than Allâh, or has been slaughtered for idols, etc., or on which Allâh's Name has not been mentioned while slaughtering, and that which has been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by the goring of horns - and that which has been (partly) eaten by a wild animal - unless you are able to slaughter it (before its death) ­ and that which is sacrificed (slaughtered) on An­Nusub (stone altars). (Forbidden) also is to use arrows seeking luck or decision, (all) that is Fisqun (disobedience of Allâh and sin). This day, those who disbelieved have given up all hope of your religion, so fear them not, but fear Me. This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed my favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islâm as your religion. But as for him who is forced by severe hunger, with no inclination to sin (such can eat these above-mentioned meats), then surely, Allâh is Oft­Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Therefore, once you have perfection, there is only one thing after you try to add anything onto it - imperfection.

Thus comes the yard-stick with which all muslims can distinguish between all these groups:

Brother/sister, thank you for your arguments in regards to the Qur'an and the sunnah - but can you please tell me which of the earlier muslims thought this way? Please tell me which of the scholars, the earlier generations, or the companions thought like you did?

For if what you bring to this forum is an innovation, then know what you have brought is false - Islam was perfected from day 1 - if you are right, we would have people like you from amongst the first muslims.

May Allah guide me to the straight path. May He guide you also.

Ameen.
[/quote]

[quote]
Originally posted by Alpha1:

You have said that the Nabi has not fortold any of the events that will come to pass. You have also said that the Nabi only gave us the Qur'an and no other guidance.

Now please tell us who from among the earlier generation of Muslims thought like this?

Your own interpretations are just fine and dandy, but until you can convince me that the first muslims thought like you - you have brought nothing but an innovation.
[/quote]

Exactly! Wa jazaakumAllaahu khair akhee.

It has always been most astonishing to see people presenting their opinions so nonchalantly, while in the same manner brushing aside the understanding and interpretations of the Companions - radhiAllaahu anum.

How can we even lift an atoms weight of doubt upon the understanding of the Companions? This issue is something that even the Companions did not differ upon, and where united, unanimously in agreement, that 'Esa ibn Maryam - salaatu wa salaam - did not die and was raised to the Heavens (a physical ascention) and shall return to earth as a member of the Ummah of Muhammad - salallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam.

This is what all the Companions believed, when Allaah - subhaana wa ta'aala - said:

*This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed my favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islâm as your religion. *

And surely, when Allaah specifies the Companions as being the "best of mankind", He doesn't testify to that for nothing!

Yet the sad reality remains, that people waste their lives putting their opinions across and debating on matters that are clear as crystal, as they have already been understood by the Companions.

But unfortunately, whims tickle more fancies than explanations of respectable "best" Muslims, while desires pave the way for Shaytaan's infiltration of the mind - evil whispers cloud the thoughts, and arrogance leaves its scars.

There is more to life! It is not about pride, pomp and pageant!

... or at least, not in this world!

"No leaf falls except that He knows of it, and no rain drop forms except that He has willed it."

[This message has been edited by Hasnain (edited August 01, 2002).]

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Ibrahim says: Salaams to all

Dear Brethren

    It would  seem the deviants have become more knowledgeable than Allah (swt) and His chosen Prophet. (pbuh) Hence they argue about revealed texts hoping to alter its meanings as they have altered it for themselves in their deviant publications and translations.

It was because of this kind of deviations and onslaught made by shaitan and his followers, it had been ordained that False Prophets and teachers MUST be KILLED from ancient times failing which it will become a cancer that will cause the entire body to deteriorate.

Anyway let us look at what the scriptures conveys with regards to Christ.

Firstly Allah (swt) established that He chose the best woman on the whole planet at that time frame for one of His SIGN to be created as a lasting SIGN and mercy for mankind.

How do we know this ?

Allah the Most High revealed:-

19:21 He said: ( to Mary) "So (it will be): thy Lord saith `That is easy for Me: ** and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': it is a matter (so) decreed."**

Ibrahim says : hence Nabi Eesa (as) was only a word that became Flesh in the womb of his mother and did not have a father as had been ordained for all of mankind. But he was only a man like the rest of us having the need to eat and rest like all of us but vested with miraculous powers to fulfill his objectives by Allah (swt)

How do we know this ?

Allah the Most High revealed:-

3: 59 This similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam: ** He created him from dust ** then said to him: "Be" and he was.

Ibrahim says : Hence he was a miracle child preaching from birth and most likely traveled the ends of this planet ( since every nation would have wanted to hear and see him) before returning to Jerusalem at around the age of 12 ( where the bible stories begins) by which time his miracle birth may have well been forgotten in Judea itself

Anyway, Firstly His creation is UNIQUE and his mother was blessed in such ways that she was the envy of the town

How do we know this?

Allah the Most High revealed:-

3: 37 Right graciously did her Lord accept her: He made her grow in purity and beauty; to the care of Zakariya was she assigned. ** Every time that he entered (her) chamber to see her he found her supplied with sustenance. He said: "O Mary! whence (comes) this to you?" She said: "From Allah: for Allah provides sustenance to whom He pleases without measure."**

Ibrahim says: Hence Allah (swt) did not create a special child to do the normal prophetic functions which have been done by many human beings before and after him.

There was a CLEAR purpose for the creation of Christ and it was foretold the day Mary received word from Allah (swt) through the Angel Jibreel

What was it?

Allah the Most High revealed:-

19:21 He said: ( to Mary) "So (it will be): thy Lord saith `That is easy for Me: ** and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': it is a matter (so) decreed."**

Ibrahim says: Indeed , ** Christ is A SIGN and A MERCY for the coming of the hour ( the end ) ** , yet it has deluded the deviants who try to preach he died and was raised in the spirit to heaven .

But how will he be a Mercy for mankind, IF he was only meant to live on this planet once and not return before the end ?

The flaw in the deviants argument is obvious when we consider the facts that that all of mankind immaterial of whether they are alive on this planet or in heaven or in hell can only exist in the bodily form as they were originally created in the bodily form to live in heaven in the physical form, only others that had been created in the spirit form will exist in that form.

How do we know this ?

Allah (swt) created Adam (as) in heaven out of dust/clay , hence any man that is in heaven will be of dust/clay , in fact Allah (swt) says he will replace your skin as it gets burned in hell as many times as needed such that your pain will NEVER end, which means even in hell mankind will have a physical form.

Now what happened in his First assignment on this planet has led some to believe

1) he is God and some others to believe

2) he is son of God and most others to believe

3) he was killed and came back alive and raised up

But Allah (swt) corrected all these errors and said:

4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";-** but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them,** and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, ** for of a surety they killed him not:- **

Ibrahim says : Hence Christ was NEVER subject to any torture or death so what happened to him?

Allah (swt) the Most High said:

4.158 Nay, Allah ** raised him up unto Himself;** and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

Transliteration : Bar rafa'ahulla_hu ilaih(i), wa ka_na_lla_hu 'azizan hakima_(n).

Ibrahim says : Was there any dispute concerning this at that time frame? NONE! Whatsoever ! And even after 600 years later when the Qur?an was revealed , there was no correction given in the Qur?an for the Christian belief that Christ had risen . Nor did the Prophet (pbuh) preach anything other than that, Christ will return to accomplish his final assignment Allah (swt) had willed as assigned at the end times. In fact Allah (swt) explicitly says He raised him to Himself .

Yet, these days we find the deviants trying to argue about this . what a foolish lot they must be, since

Allah the Most High revealed:-

3: 55 Behold! ** Allah said:** "O Jesus!** I will take thee and raise thee to Myself ** and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject Faith to the Day of Resurrection; then shall ye all return unto Me and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

Transliteration: Iz qa_lalla_hu ya_ 'isa_** inni mutawaffika wa ra_fi'uka ilayya** wa mutahhiruka minal lazina kafaru_ wa ja_'ilul lazinattaba'u_ka fauqal lazina kafaru_ ila_ yaumil qiya_mah(ti), summa ilayya marji'ukum fa ahkumu bainakum fima_ kuntum fihi takhtalifu_n(a).

Allah the Most High revealed:-

19:21 He said: ( to Mary) "So (it will be): thy Lord saith `That is easy for Me: ** and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': it is a matter (so) decreed."**

Ibrahim says: Who is there that can dispute with what Allah (swt) had revealed or decreed? Only the ignorant and arrogant who think they can invent their own ways and mislead others will argue about such matters without knowledge.

Was salaam
Ibrahim

Allah The Exalted says:

7: 40 To ** those who reject Our signs and treat them with arrogance ** no opening will there be of the gates of heaven ** nor will they enter the garden until the camel can pass through the eye of the needle: ** such is Our reward for those in sin.

74

[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
** Muhammad Asad

(4:159) Yet there is not one of the followers of earlier revelations who does not, at the moment of his death, grasp the truth about Jesus and on the Day of Resurrection he (Jesus himself) shall bear a witness to the truth against them.

Commentary by Muhammad Asad: "who does not believe in him before his death". According to this verse, all believing Jews and Christians realize at the moment of their death that Jesus was truly a prophet of God - having been neither an imposter nor "the son of God" (Zamakhshari)

quote:

Regarding Jesus being a witness on the Day of Judgment. How can someone be a witness without witnessing the event?? (*That is if you believe Jesus is dead and will not return).

This 'witnessing' is about the 'oneness of Allah' and no one being a partner with him.

All prophets will be a witness against their nations.

[33:45] O Prophet! surely We have sent you as a witness, and as a bearer of good news and as a warner.

PakistaniAbroad: Thus Jesus will only bear witness to the truth that he was NOT the Son of God but a mortal messenger, like the others which have passed before him.
**
[/quote]

Well.... PakistaniAbroad
This difference is in the translations and tafsir of Quranic verses. But how many of them subscribe to the belief that Jesus is dead and buried in Kashmir?

If you never try anything new, you'll miss out on many of life's great disappointments.

75

I think I would like to add something

PA

You say (by quoting Muhammad Asad translation) that the Jew and Christian will come to the realization about the true Nature of Jesus. And so one may ask, "How will this benefit them?"

There is an ayah in Al-Quran that says Tauba when approaching death is of no use.

And then we come to the next verse that says "Isa Al-Masih will be a witness on them that they have believed" - Now my question is how can you claim that the realization on the death bed is a sign that they (the Jew and Christian) has believe him (Jesus)?

And we Muslim don’t have this believe that Jesus is listening to what people say in his/her heart when someone is dying?

[This message has been edited by google (edited August 02, 2002).]

76

[quote]
Originally posted by NeSCio:
*^how do you know that the earliest muslims did those things which are mentioned in the hadith??? there no other way to find out except reading those hadith, and that IS the core issue here: *what is the position of those hadith in Islam????

you cannot say that the earliest muslims did everything according to those hadith and then trying to prove it by showing those hadith! You should come with other proof. And the only thing we can revert to is the Quran, and as stated numerous of times, there are a lot of things in the Hadith which even cannot be deduced indirectly from the quran!**
[/quote]

Then according to your analysis, all the different groups are correct? The Jahmi, the ahmadi the rafidi? They all refer to the same Qur'an dont they? All the thousands of groups that we have seen - are they all correct?

To simply put aside all the hadith is just Jahiliya and takabur - there is nothing else to describe it.

But surely Nescio, if you put your faith so readily more into economic theories than you do to the sayings of the Nabi, then surely you are relying upon the Hadiths of Adam Smith, David Ricardo, Alfred Marshall, and other economic theorists? If texts survive to this day that tell us what these people believed in and you accept them, then surely there must be some texts that tell us what the first muslims believed in????

Come on Nescio, try a little harder, there must be some historical document, some treastise, some piece of a book that can proove the first muslims behaved like you?? I am still waiting to be converted.

[This message has been edited by Alpha1 (edited August 01, 2002).]

77

salaam to all,

dear alpha1,

[quote]
I assume that you laugh and roll your eyes also at the Qur'anic ayahs that talk of the mountains being cleared away
on the day of judgement, that Adam was made from the earth, the Arsh and the Kursi of Allah etc - thats how your
logic works does it not?
[/quote]

filhaal:
alpha1, do you find your conclusion logical that i laugh at the QURAN!! If i am the one (together with some others) who wants to explain that we should be following the QURAN ALONE, then why should i laugh at the QURANIC ayats?? if the ascension of prophet isa (saw) would be in the quran then i would certainly believe it, but is it truely in the QURAN..............??

[quote]
'abundance of money'
[/quote]

filhaal:
this is the term used in the hadith, but your interpretation is 'abandance of wealth'. Your interpretation makes more sense!!wealth not only refers to money, but also other "prosperity" in the sense of spiritual, scientific, artistic and also economic.
The fact that this hadith only talks of abandance of money shows that the hadith fabricator was not the smartest of fellows!!

like M. Gandhi once said:
"there is enough in this world for everyone NEED,
but there is not enough for everyone GREED"

in other words, there is enough in this world, but only the distribution is the problem!!

again, Jizya........in which country is this happening???
the suppresion and injustice in the world needs to be ablolished and abandance of money is not the solution!!
The society that Prophet Mohammad (saw) established in Medina was a just society, because every one was SATISFIED with the things they had, because there was "abandance of spiritual" wealth and there certainly was not any abandance of money!!

[quote]
Show me where your not the first muslims to believe and behave this way, that the first generations did this also,
and you can count me into your bandwagon.......
[/quote]

filhaal:
christians claim that Jesus Christ was the SON of GOD, and people have been claiming this for the last 2000 years!!
still, i know that this was not the case. I am convinced that the true followers of Prophet ISa (saw) 2000 years ago did not believe this. On what do you and i base this??why do you not start believing christians BECAUSE FOR 2000 YEARS THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON!!

christians have been consuming pork for the last 2000 years even when it was forbidden, still i am conviced that the true followers of Prophet Isa (saw) 2000 years ago obeyed this order given by GOD through Prophet Isa (SAW).

but where can i find this information on these followers (muslims)! Gospels??!!

history is a dangerous business!!

you want an historical evidence!! probably hadith, but why do you want the hadith as evidence if we have QURAN which PREDATES any written hadith!! and surely the Sahaba would have followed the QURAN.

78

Filhall

Firstly the point is that Nescio rejected the Hadith on the basis of qiyas - reasoning. His reasoning was flaud since his understanding of economic theory too is flaud. What does the text of the narrtion say? Does it refer to dhirms and dinars? (Promisary notes), or does it refer to real-income? Ill leave that one for you to ponder over.

Insofar as my question is concerned - your answer is ad hoc and nothing more. Like saying they just did and so there!

Your collective (dunno if PA N & F = same person, sounds like it does) failure to even bring one ounce of proof that your manhaj is not an innovation is plain for all to see.

In the past, other deviant groups just shut-up and walked off when they were asked this question.

79

salaam,

i have been saying time and again what the meaning of the two terms mutawaffika and rafifuka is??
different people have given different meaning, but to understand these terms you need to understand how these terms are used WITHIN THE QURAN!!

the translation which ibrahim gave:

[quote]
3: 55 Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of
those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject Faith to the Day of
Resurrection; then shall ye all return unto Me and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute

[/quote]

  1. 'wafat' in many other ayats in the quran means death. ayat 2:234, 2:240, 3:193, 4:15, 6:61, 47:27 40:67 and many other verses!!please look up all these ayat and you will find that wafat means taking the soul in other words to die!!

why then is wafat in ayat 3:55 being (mis)interpreted and translated as 'will take thee' and forcing an physical ascension?? clearly if you understand the meaning of wafat from the QURAN it means that 'take thee' means causing someone to die!!
if however, wafat means 'to take thee' and suggest physical ascension then in all other ayat why isn't this word interpreted as physical ascension??why only verse 3:55??

  1. now, we come to the second part 'rafa' the above mentioned translation shows that it means:'raise thee to myself'. what does this really mean?? a physical ascension towards GOD??does raising towards GOD mean the same as raise towards HEAVEN as some people suggest?? to understand 'rafa' we again look at the QURAN!!in many ayat 'rafa' is being used. ayat: 43:32, another verse 19:57, another one 24:36!!

24:36(Lit is such a Light) in houses, which Allah hath *permitted to be raised to honor *; for the celebration, in them, of His name. In them is He glorified in the mornings and in the evenings, (again and again),-

this ayat is talking about pious people being raised in honour!!

19:57. And We raised him to a lofty station.

this ayat is talking about prophet Idris being raised in status. or would you argue that this was also a physical ascension?? in this case we have two prophets being raised phsyically!!
but wait we have more

43:32 Is it they who would portion out the Mercy of thy Lord? It is We Who portion out between them their livelihood in the life of this world: and We raise some of
them above others in ranks, so that some may command work from others. But the Mercy of thy Lord is better than the (wealth) which they amass.

this ayat is talking about Prophet Mohammad being raised in honour above others.
or do you have another explanation, is this another physical ascension. great we have three prophets physically ascending towards GOD??

by now you will understand that 'rafa' translated as "raise towards Myself" refers to a metaphorical ascension in other words being raised in honour!!

i think this is enough for now!!

80

dear alpha1,
salaam

[quote]
In the past, other deviant groups just shut-up and walked off when they were asked this question.
[/quote]

filhaal:
but we are here to stay!!
this just shows that people more and more are willing to use their GOD given 'Aql' and not merely digest what certain people (pir, fakir) say or what tradition tells them!!

concerning that hadith
irrestpective of the economic system, abandance of money is no solution!!