he is dead or alive please give your answers from quran and hadis
asslamu alaikum
**
The verses in the Quran:**
{003.055) Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself
and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who
follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then
shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
{004.157} "That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the
Apostle of God";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made
to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no
(certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-"
** And also it is a sign of the Day Of Judgement that Prophet 'Issa (jesus) will return**:
Some Ahadith:
Volume 3, Book 34, Number 425:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, son of Mary (Jesus) will shortly descend amongst you people (Muslims) as a just ruler and will break the Cross and kill the pig and abolish the Jizya (a tax taken from the non-Muslims, who are in the protection, of the Muslim government). Then there will be abundance of money and no-body will accept charitable gifts.
Book 001, Number 0293:
Jabir b. 'Abdullah reported: I heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: A section of my people will not cease fighting for the Truth and will prevail till the Day of Resurrection. He said: Jesus son of Mary would then descend and their (Muslims') commander would invite him to come and lead them in prayer, but he would say: No, some amongst you are commanders over some (amongst you). This is the honour from Allah for this Ummah.
Book 007, Number 2877:
Hanzala al-Aslami reported: I heard Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) as narrating from Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) who said: By Him in Whose Hand is my life. Ibn Maryam (Jesus Christ) would certainly pronounce Talbiya for Hajj or for Umra or for both (simultaneously as a Qiran) In the valley of Rauha
Book 37, Number 4310:
Narrated AbuHurayrah:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus (peace_be_upon_him). He will descent (to the earth). When you see him, recognise him: a man of medium height, reddish fair, wearing two light yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet. He will fight the people for the cause of Islam. He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizyah. Allah will perish all religions except Islam. He will destroy the Antichrist and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die. The Muslims will pray over him.
[This message has been edited by Uzee (edited July 21, 2002).]
...
[This message has been edited by Paki Prince (edited July 21, 2002).]
aoa
hey mr uzee
003.055) Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself
in this allah has said that he will raise him to himself it does not prove that hazrat isa is living in/on the sky because allah is every where mr uzee!!!
[This message has been edited by hamza majoka (edited July 21, 2002).]
(3:144)And Muhammad is but a messenger. Verily all Messengers have passed away before him. If then he dies or is slain, will you turn back on your heels ? And he who turns back on his heels shall not harm ALLAH at all. And ALLAH will certainly reward the grateful.
this ayet clearly says all massengers have passed away before him and hazrat isa is definately before MUHAMMED P.B.U.H
NOW WHAT MR UZEE ??????
[quote]
Originally posted by hamza majoka:
**(3:144)And Muhammad is but a messenger. Verily **all Messengers **have passed away before him. If then he dies or is slain, will you turn back on your heels ? And he who turns back on his heels shall not harm ALLAH at all. And ALLAH will certainly reward the grateful.
this ayet clearly says all massengers have passed away before him and hazrat isa is definately before MUHAMMED P.B.U.H
NOW WHAT MR UZEE ??????
**
[/quote]
Asslamu alaikum...
Brother where have you found your translation...
All translations i've searched do not use the word ALL...
Muhammad (SAW) is no more than a Messenger, and indeed (many) Messengers *have passed away before him. If he dies or is killed, will you then turn back on your heels (as disbelievers)? And he who turns back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allâh, and Allâh will give reward to those who are grateful.(3:144)
*[By Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din Al-Hilali, Ph.D.
Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan ]
003.144
YUSUFALI: Muhammad is no more than a messenger:** many** Were the messenger that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then Turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude.
PICKTHAL: Muhammad is but a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) have passed away before him. Will it be that, when he dieth or is slain, ye will turn back on your heels? He who turneth back on his heels doth no hurt to Allah, and Allah will reward the thankful.
SHAKIR: And Muhammad is no more than a messenger; the messengers have already passed away before him; if then he dies or is killed will you turn back upon your heels? And whoever turns back upon his heels!s, he will by no means do harm to Allah in the least and Allah will reward the grateful.
URDU TRANSLATION BY Fateh:
"Aur Muhammad (sallal Allahu alaihi wassllam) to sirf (Khuda ke) peghember hain
un sey pehley bhi **bohut sey **peghember ho guzrey hain, bhela ager yeh mer jaayain ya maarey jaaein to tum ulttey paaoon phir jao?...." (3:144)
I also did a phonetic search of Quranic verses on islamicity.com and came with these results :
That the words used in this verse are Qad Khalat....Qad> means (many) not all ...
and khalat> means passed away (or pass before them) ..etc.
aslo, understand that the Arabic language has vast meanings for one word...english doens't do justice to arabic language when being translated..because english is very different in meaning and words.
so i hope i've made my point inshallah
if i have said anything good it is from allah and if i have said anything wrong then it is from myself and may Allah The Exalted the Forgiving ,...forgive me for it...verily none can forgive except him.
and ALLAH KNOWS BEST!!!!
waslaam
your sister in islam
[This message has been edited by Uzee (edited July 21, 2002).]
[quote]
Originally posted by hamza majoka:
**aoa
hey mr uzee
003.055) Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself
in this allah has said that he will raise him to himself it does not prove that hazrat isa is living in/on the sky because allah is every where mr uzee!!!
[This message has been edited by hamza majoka (edited July 21, 2002).]**
[/quote]
asslamu alaikum...
brother where did you get that Allah is everywhere????
Allah. There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for **He is the Most High, **the Supreme (in glory). {2:255}
many other verses that state that Allah is The MOST HIGH
Al-Hajj (The Pilgrimage)> [22:62]
Luqman (Luqman)> [31:30]
Saba' (Sheba)> [34:23]
Ghafir (The Forgiver)> [40:12]
Ash-Shura (The Consultation) > [42:4]
We worship Allah The Exalted and we know that He has 99 Holy Attributes, and these Attributes (asma wal husna) Only and Only belong to Him and no other, No Person nor thing in this entire universe can be worthy of having these Attributes. And we also know that Allah's Attributes can never change.
One of Allah's Attribute is THE MOST HIGH..this means that Allah is the Creator and He Exists 'outside' the universe He Created. He is the Most High. He is Higher than and above all of His creation. He is Not within His creation. He can see all and hear all at the sametime always. But he Himself is above the creation. God cannot exist in nor within His Own Creation.
**
Al-Aliyy
The Most High, The Sublime, The One who is clear from the attributes of the creatures.
**
Allah the Exalted is clear from all our attributes, meaning He does not sleep,eat,etc. He doesn't need anything or anyone, He is free from all needs, unlike us we need air to breathe we need sleep to rest and we need things to survive. He does not need anything...but we need Him. He is ever-lasting, he is the First and He is the Last, He is Eternal. Unlike His creation which is need of Him ...it has an appointed time of end..it is going to end..and is not going to last forever. Our Creator Allah is The Only One Who is Eternal, (as-Sawmed). No one is like Him and He is like none. All of Allah's Creation (ie. universe and everything in it) needs something to survive and is not eternal. BUT Allah is Eternal and so He doesn't exist within the universe...He is above it and He is free from all imperfections.
*Where is Allah? *
Allah is above the heavens raised over the Throne and separated from His creatures.
*Is Allah with us (in person)? *
Allah is settled over His Mighty Throne, but He is with us by His Knowledge, hearing ,seeing and other attributes. As He said: "Fear not verily! I am with you both hearing and seeing (V,20. :46)
Ibrahim says: salaams to all
Masha'Allaah! Sister Uzee had already given Clear Answers as to why hamza majoka had erred . ** It is obvious that he is using an ahmedia translation of the Qur’an, which seems to have many adjustments/modifications tailored for its false creed which has misled him and others like him.**
Kindly read :
4:148 ** Allah loveth not that evil should be noised abroad in public speech except where injustice hath been done;** for Allah is He who heareth and knoweth all things.
In the mean time ponder over :-
55: 33 O ye assembly of Jinns and men! if it be ye can pass ** beyond the zones of the heavens and the earth** pass ye! not without authority shall ye be able to pass!
Was salaam
Ibrahim
** Truth’s advantage over a lie is that you need to say it only once **
[Shakir 3:55] And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.
As stated in verses 45 to 47 of this surah the birth of Isa was a miracle. His departure from this world to the heaven, alive, was also a miracle. It is stated in Minhaj al Sadiqin that Isa was kept in custody in a room during the night following which he was to be crucified in the morning. At daybreak, Judas the hypocrite companion of Isa, who had betrayed him to the Roman soldiers, went into the room to escort Isa to the place of crucifixion. As soon as he entered the room, he was miraculously transformed into a person who resembled Isa. When he came out of the room the Roman soldiers took him to the cross and crucified him, in spite of his loud and desperate protestations.
The Jewish plot to kill Isa was prevented by the best of planners, the almighty Allah.
Tawaffa is to fulfil a promise. Inni mutawaffika means "I will complete your term". The word may mean death or to take away. It has been used in both its meanings in the Quran.
The Ahmadi commentator, to deny the miraculous escape of Isa from being crucified, misinterprets the word tawaffa as Isa's physical death. The Holy Prophet and the holy Imams have said that Isa will come down again from the heaven before the day of resurrection and offer prayers behind Imam Muhammad al Mahdi, the last Imam in the progeny of the Holy Prophet.
"And set those who follow you (victorious) above those who disbelieve", refers to those Christians who accepted Isa as a true prophet of Allah, followed his teachings, and believed in his prophecy about the advent of the Holy Prophet.
All the Muslims, in the light of this and other verses of the Quran, do not give any credence to the false story of Isa's crucifixion and resurrection, fabricated by the Christian church.
Tawaffa (to take away), tahar (to purify), raf-a (to raise) and nuzul (to descend) are the four effects of the divine will in connection with Isa, out of which the first three have already taken place and the fourth is expected to happen, before the final resurrection. The religion of Allah shall triumph over all other religions and creeds. The light of truth shall enlighten the world, and a perfect human society shall be established before the world comes to an end. This is His promise. If tawaffa means death, then also there should be no doubt in the mind of a believer about Isa's nuzul because, as said in verses 258 to 260 of al Baqarah, Allah can give life to the dead or raise up any dead living being to life. In the opinion of Shaykh Saduq, this explanation is more credible.
If tawaffa means departure from this world without dying, then his nuzul will be re-appearance after his temporary disappearance, similar to Imam Muhammad al Mahdi, who is living on the earth as a necessary link between man and God, while Isa has been raised up unto Allah. So Isa has no jurisdiction in the matters of this world, whereas Imam Mahdi is the sole deputy of Allah to look after and take care of the terrestrial affairs. When both of them shall re-appear Isa shall follow the leadership of Imam al Mahdi.
[This message has been edited by Gandalf (edited July 21, 2002).]
salaam to all, salaam uzee,
the hadith that have been mentioned above again shows the blasphemous content of certain hadith.
Do you really think this has been said by the Holy Prophet (saw) himself?? or rather this has been attributed to him by latter generations!!
according to these hadith Prophet Isa (saw) will come back in order to break the Cross and kill the pig!! Do you see any logic in this?? what kind of honour for a prophet is this to kill a pig!!
abolish the Jizya?? Will prophet Isa come as a tax officer?? In which country is this happening today?? If this is happening nowadays can’t we stop it before prophet Isa (saw) comes??
I think the situation nowadays is the other way around, there are many more muslims living under non-muslim protection than non-muslims living under muslim protection.
Do you really think that a cross and a pig stands in the way of ISLAM??
Ibrahim says gandalf! It seems you are desperate to spread your shia versions, and this thread is not about the shia Imam Mahdi, so just let me give you the link, where you can obtain wisdom, IF Allah (swt) willed for you.
http://www.jamiat.org.za/story_of_imam_mahdi.htm
Ibrahim says : Salaams to all.
Dear Filhaal, why would that hadith be blasphemous?
Do you believe this ayat?
"And follow not (O man, i.e., say not or do not or witness not) that of which you have no knowledge.‘’ (17:36)
Ibrahim says: kindly Give evidence for your doubts? Or are we to follow your whims and fancies as to chose which hadith must be accepted and which must be rejected?
Allah, the Exalted, says:
"O you who believe! Avoid much suspicions, indeed some suspicions are sins.‘’ (49:12)
Ibrahim says: why is it not logical? Maybe you have failed to realize what the cross and pig has become for Christians?
Lets THINK for once shall we! See the cross, today most Christians believe it has powers to keep away evil spirits ( such they hand them around their necks and tattoo them on their bodies and place them on top of mountains and every where possible) , which means it is equal to God. They also believe Christ was crucified on a cross and he told them to carry a cross.
Hence to destroy such beliefs, it would be obvious to break the cross by the very man who they believe taught them such things. Don’t you think so?
Now lets look at the pig, did you know Christ killed 2000 innocent pigs by sending the demons upon them??? , yet Christians ended up consuming what was forbidden to be consumed because they believed he taught them such teachings, so when he will be sent again it should be obvious for him to demonstrate that HE indeed killed the pigs and NEVER taught anyone to consume such creatures which had been forbidden by God , don’t you think so?
Ibrahim says: Did you not read what it said, let me quote the part you snipped off
“Then there will be abundance of money and no-body will accept charitable gifts.”
Hence taxation will be abolished at some future when Christ will return to accomplish his final mission, this simply means Islam will be reestablished as prophesied and at such times, since Muslims will practice Islam and they will be abundance of wealth , they need not impose jizya anymore as prescribed by Allah (swt) .
Ibrahim says: Apparently you have failed to be rational . The return of Christ was to redirect the Christians back to Islam as established by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) just like his earlier mission, it was to redirect the Jews back to Islam as established by Prophet Moses (pbuh) . hence the breaking of the cross as well as killing of the pigs are all part of the redirection for Christians to Islam , the religion he tried to establish in his first mission but failed because the Jews refused redirection.
Allah, the Exalted, says:
"And those who annoy believing men and women undeservedly, bear on themselves the crime of slander and plain sin.‘’ (33:58)
Hope that helps
Ws salaam
Ibrahim
Allah, the Exalted, says:
"And shun lying speech (false statements).‘’ (22:30)
Ahh .. and here we go again. :)
Anyway, I will try not to budge in this time! But for those who tend to believe that Hazrat Isa (as) is still alive, I would like to know what is their answer to the Christian evangelists who as their first argument say "Jesus is alive in Heaven and Muhammad is in his grave in Arabia"
I was working at a bookstore when I was hounded by a bunch of them & by all means it was their first argument. When I told them, Jesus, son of Mary, died like all other prophets of God ... they were baffeled; as it was unexpected for them. They tried to convince me first from Bible & then one of them quoted Quran; it was indeed an interesting discussion and its suffice to say that they didn't come back again.
dear Ibrahim,
salaam, salaam to all
nice answers, but unconvincing!!i completely understand what the cross and the pig mean for the christians, but still these hadith are not logical.
If Prophet Isa (saw) would return, he would have an even more important issue to resolve with the christians than the pig and cross issue, don't you think??!!
you will be wondering what i am talking about now??
the issue i am concerned with is the belief of the christians on the TRINITY, or in other words "the SON of GOD" issue??
So, if Prophet Isa (saw) would come back in this world, wouldn't this be an even more important issue to address (which is at the very heart of christian belief), than the pig and cross issues!! Isn't it more important that the person the christians belief to be the son of GOD himself proclaims that this is not true??
so, again from this point of view these hadith do not make any logic.
secondly, why are the christians the only one's who get a chance to proclaim their belief in GOD ALONE (SUBMISSION) and not other peoples (hindus, buddhist, atheist etc.)??
let us start from the beginning of this thread:
They key words here are : Ya Isa, inni mutawaffika wa rafi’uka ilaiya 3:54
The key word here is "wafat" . The most correct meaning of "wafat" is death, or take away soul. If soul is taken away from a person, it
is nothing but death. The problem arises with regards to this verse, when Muslims refuse to interpret the meaning of "wafat" as
death. Irony is that all scholars who translated the Holy Quran do agree "wafat" means death. Each and every scholar translated
the word "wafat" as death in at least 20 different instances in their translations. However, in this particular verse, they
interpreted the meaning as ‘take away’ and insinuate physical ascension. These translators did not hesitate to twist the actual
meaning of the word of Allah to support Christian faith and to some extent weak Hadith!!
so, the true meaning of this verse would be:
"O Isa! I shall cause you to die and I shall exalt you towards me....."
so, in other words, Prophet Isa (saw) died a natural death (not on the cross!!).
ahmadjee
I understand if it comes from you it will be taken as the 'ahmedi' translation.
Mr. Ibrahim, when you say something why shouldn't I take it as an 'Ahl-e-Sunnah' or a 'Wahabbi' translation?? why should your interpretation be the correct one?? Why can't your stance be the one in error??
Find the correct meaning from within the Qur'an for just two words and the mystery will be solved forever.
mutawafika
raafiuka
[quote]
Originally posted by filhaal:
nice answers, but unconvincing!!
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: Salaams to all
Filhaal!, Always walk on step at a time, don’t jump or run ( you might stumble and break your neck) , you wrote and insisted that the hadith was blasphemous and I asked you why and how, do I need to repeat my questions?
BTW I do not post to convince anyone, I respond mostly when the ignorant and arrogant spread their follies about religious matters. Some of them have been already exposed as lunatics, hence i do not need to respond.
[quote]
If Prophet Isa (saw) would return, he would have an even more important issue to resolve with the christians than the pig and cross issue, don't you think??!!
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: Sorry, It is obvious Such matters are beyond you, since you cannot even understand the Qur’an and your talk according to your whims and fancies.
Just so that you won’t be in the thick of thin things.
1) The moment Christians realize that Christ was not a Christian, they will be nothing for them to fall back to or discuss about, so it will destroyed period and one of his mission on this planet will be to destroy Christianity that is what that hadith conveys in essence. since Christianity is already crumbling day by day even before the appearance of Christ (pbuh).
[quote]
you will be wondering what i am talking about now??
the issue i am concerned with is the belief of the christians on the TRINITY, or in other words "the SON of GOD" issue??
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: Think again brother, because you just don’t seem to have the ability to think so well.
Why?
Because
1) You denied Allah the Most High, when you denied the truth as what had been foretold in scriptures and taught by His chosen Prophets.
2) you slandered the prophet (pbuh) when you cast doubts on what he had conveyed
3) You slandered the vanguard of Islam who took pride in preserving the Prophetic teachings
4) You slandered the pious Muslims who had for 1432 years worked hard to maintain and disseminate the TRUTH for generations to come.
5) you are adamant in not being able to admit to your own errors/misconceptions even when corrected by others .
Now when you have reached the level of thought that is needed to comprehend how all will be achieved by Christ by just breaking the cross, I am sure you will be able to understand that trinity is destroyed when Christ denies the Christians by just breaking the cross.
[quote]
So, if Prophet Isa (saw) would come back in this world, wouldn't this be an even more important issue to address (which is at the very heart of christian belief), than the pig and cross issues!! Isn't it more important that the person the christians belief to be the son of GOD himself proclaims that this is not true??
so, again from this point of view these hadith do not make any logic.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: which only means you an incompetent to understand simple things , you see in order to destroy the belief in idols/gods, one only needs to break the idols/gods, like wise in order to destroy the false beliefs that have been associated with Christ, he only needs to destroy the cross, for Christians to realize that he was NEVER a Christian which means there is no trinity or son of God to argue about.
Sorry had to trash the rest of your spin , which was meant to divert the issue.
Like I said one step at a time, so let me repeat my earlier questions to you which you have evaded.
1) why would that hadith be blasphemous?
2) kindly Give evidence for your doubts?
3) why is it not logical?
4) did you know Christ killed 2000 innocent pigs by sending the demons upon them???
I have to repeat this since in one breath you said “nice answers” and in another “ but unconvincing” which is hypocritical and the works of deceivers.
Allah, the Exalted, says:
"And those who annoy believing men and women undeservedly, bear on themselves the crime of slander and plain sin.'' (33:58)
Do you doubt Allah, the Most high????
Hope that helps
Was salaam
Ibrahim
Allah, the Exalted, says:
"Woe to every slanderer and backbiter.'' (105:1)
"Muhammad (PBUH) is the Messenger of Allah, and those who are with him are severe against disbelievers, and merciful among themselves.'' (48:29)
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Ibrahim:
** Ibrahim says: which only means you an incompetent to understand simple things ,
WHO ARE YOU TO DECIDE THIS!!
Ibrahim says:
you see in order to destroy the belief in idols/gods, one only needs to break the idols/gods, like wise in order to destroy the false beliefs that have been associated with Christ, he only needs to destroy the cross, for Christians to realize that he was NEVER a Christian which means there is no trinity or son of God to argue about.
filhaal:
Dear Ibrahim do yuo really believe what you are writing!!
in other words, Prophet Mohammad (saw) when he started his mission he went to the Kaba and smashed all the idols, and suddenly whole of arabia became muslim!!
Ibrahim:
Sorry had to trash the rest of your spin , which was meant to divert the issue.
Filhaal:
nice try to evade this issue!!
it was not meant to divert the issue, instead that was the mean issue in this thread dear chap!!
look who is running away!!
you simply did not have an answer to the second part of my post!! Look who is incompetent to understand the simple meaning of a word!! also interesting is that you have not responded to what PakistaniAbroad has asked you!!
ibrahim:
1) why would that hadith be blasphemous?
filhaal:
because you are attributing things to prophet Mohammad(saw), which he never could have said. The Prophet (saw) did not know the future!! (i will present you evidence from the QURAN, BUT BEFORE THAT I WANT TO SEE YOUR childish response based on hadith)
ibrahim:
2) kindly Give evidence for your doubts?
filhaal:
have you ever heard of the QURAN, nothing in it on a prophet (saw) coming back to kill and break something, uuupss sorry, you are a hadithi, you believe more in the hadith than the QURAN!!
ibrahim:
3) did you know Christ killed 2000 innocent pigs by sending the demons upon them???
filhaal:
where did you get this, obviously from the BIBLE, so in order to support your weak hadith you even get the help of the Gospels and other distorted previous scriptures!!
ibrahim:
I have to repeat this since in one breath you said “nice answers” and in another “ but unconvincing” which is hypocritical and the works of deceivers.
Filhaal:
nothing hypocritical in this, if you have had any literature in school, high school or university, then this is CALLED IRONY!!
Allah, the Exalted, says:
"And those who annoy believing men and women undeservedly, bear on themselves the crime of slander and plain sin.'' (33:58)
filhaal:
This can equically well be refering to you!!
ibrahim:
Do you doubt Allah, the Most high????
Filhaal:
NOOO, that is why i believe in the QURAN alone,
you are the one doubting ALLAH and using all kinds of dubious hadith to support your beliefs!!
filhaal:
why did not you give an answer to my second point, why are the christians the only people who should get a second chance??
why not all other people buddhist, atheist, hindus and even the so-called muslims of today??
and if this is the case that a prophet needs to come back to give a group of believers a second chance, then i think Prophet Mohammad (saw) also should pay us a visit to show 80% of the muslims today that his true message was the QURAN and not some hadith.
Ibrahim says: Apparently you have failed to be rational . The return of Christ was to redirect the Christians back to Islam as
established by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) just like his earlier mission, it was to redirect the Jews back to Islam as established
by Prophet Moses (pbuh) . hence the breaking of the cross as well as killing of the pigs are all part of the redirection for
Christians to Islam , the religion he tried to establish in his first mission but failed because the Jews refused redirection.
filhaal:
WHO ARE YOU TO SAY THAT DURING HIS FIRST MISSION PROPHET ISA FAILED!!!(again you are slandering a prophet, poor chap)
but of course you are allowed to that, because you are the wise, isn't it??
YOU should be saying that prophet Isa (saw) succeded in his mission, that the christians went astray can not be seen as a failure of the prophet!!!
a prophet is only a warner and a bearer of glad tidings, whether someone follows his orders is the choice of the peoples themselves!!
AND the choice of a people cannot be used as a success percentage of a prophet!!
got this one, dear boy!!
BTW which cross is Prophet Isa (saw) going to break, the one in the Vatican, Jerusalem??
[This message has been edited by filhaal (edited July 23, 2002).]
[quote]
Originally posted by filhaal:
[quote]
WHO ARE YOU TO DECIDE THIS!!
[/quote]
Ibrahim says salaams to all
Dear Filhaal it is called wisdom! It is an essence, not a thing, not a thought, not even an idea. that allows some to analyze matters better than others, hence from what you have shown, you are incompetent when it comes to religious matters that does not mean you are incompetent in everything else but in religious matters you have shown it once too often. Sorry I am only being honest.
[quote]
filhaal: Dear Ibrahim do yuo really believe what you are writing!!
in other words, Prophet Mohammad (saw) when he started his mission he went to the Kaba and smashed all the idols, and suddenly whole of arabia became muslim!!
[/quote]
Ibrahim says : dear filhaal Don’t be silly, to establish Islam it took 23 years of revelations and expounding of those revelations a little at a time by a man dedicated to that purpose only. here I am talking about a belief system that had been tailored by the Christians and being propagated in a way which was not done by its originator, hence when the originator returns and denies it he only need to break the symbol of Christianity which was used and being used in his name. ; Do you understand this?
This is like you NEVER said such and such, but someone said you said such and such, hence to establish the truth all you have to do is deny you said such and such publicly and the liar will be exposed as the liar, get it?
Thus when Christ denies he taught Christianity by breaking its very symbol, all the dogma and fabrications concerning him being a son of God, being part of trinity and what nots will dissolve .
[quote]
Filhaal:
nice try to evade this issue!! it was not meant to divert the issue, instead that was the mean issue in this thread dear chap!! look who is running away!!
you simply did not have an answer to the second part of my post!! Look who is incompetent to understand the simple meaning of a word!! also interesting is that you have not responded to what PakistaniAbroad has asked you!!
[/quote]
Ibrahim says : dear young man! I have been around for quite some time and this issue has been raised by the ahmedia click before this and responded by me to which they have ran away. Now I wish not to brag, all you have to do is make a search for my posts addressed to Pakistaniaboard on this forum and you will see the depth I have covered and the shame that had been heaped on her. Pakistaniaboard had been thrashed left right and center , on many threads for her follies by many posters in this forum, now days I just ignore her posts since it is useless to argue with deceivers who are self deluding souls.
[quote]
filhaal:because you are attributing things to prophet Mohammad(saw), ** which he never could have said.** The Prophet (saw) did not know the future!! (i will present you evidence from the QURAN, BUT BEFORE THAT I WANT TO SEE YOUR childish response based on hadith)
[/quote]
Ibrahim says You mean you were present to know he NEVER prophesied or taught his followers what had been revealed to him? Can you produce the evidence for what he NEVER taught?
Second, You mean Allah (swt) did not guide him as to what will happen in the future?
[quote]
filhaal:have you ever heard of the QURAN, nothing in it on a prophet (saw) coming back to kill and break something, uuupss sorry, you are a hadithi, you believe more in the hadith than the QURAN!!
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: hello! Still awake ??? my question was, GIVE EVIDENCE FOR DOUBTING THAT HADITH not about the Qur’an not having details in every matters that will come to pass in the future.
Now show me a verse in the Qur’an or hadith or in the gospel that denies the return of Christ who had been created as the SIGN for all of mankind?
[quote]
filhaal: where did you get this, obviously from the BIBLE, so in order to support your weak hadith you even get the help of the Gospels and other distorted previous scriptures!!
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: woah, hold your horses, so now you claim you know better and Allah (swt) did not created the Christ in a unique manner for an unique purpose? Or why do you suppose ** a virgin** had to give birth to this prophet?
[quote]
Filhaal: nothing hypocritical in this, if you have had any literature in school, high school or university, then this is CALLED IRONY!!
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: hello young man, this is the religion forum, here you make sense not talk nonsense according to your whims and fancies. So long as you reveal the TRUTH, you are safe but the moment you spread falsehood, you will be exposed and rejected. It Is as simple as that.
[quote]
filhaal: This can equically well be refering to you!!
[/quote]
Ibrahim say: but we know it refer to you since you, a tom dick and harry just two decades old, have decided on your own to slander the Prophetic teachings without knowledge . whereas Muslims for 1423 years and Christians for 2000 years have the same notions as to what had been revealed by Allah (swt) concerning Christ. Now unless you have some evidence to prove me wrong, please do so, failing which understand the facts that religion is not based on opinions of any tom , Dick and harries but on scripture and authentic prophetic teachings.
[quote]
Filhaal:
NOOO, that is why i believe in the QURAN alone, you are the one doubting ALLAH and using all kinds of dubious hadith to support your beliefs!!
[/quote]
Ibrahim says : Ahh! so you are a deviant belonging to the submitters sect and your claim that you believe in the Qur’an alone and not on prophetic teachings is sufficient to prove that you had erred.
Further the Qur’an has enough verses in it to establish that Christ was not like any other man and Christ was created as a SIGN for mankind, now go and find out how will he be a sign and mercy form Allah (swt) for mankind if he is dead.
[quote]
filhaal: why did not you give an answer to my second point, why are the christians the only people who should get a second chance??
[/quote]
Ibrahim says O Lord! Don’t be naïve . Christ is not returning to give the Christians a second chance he will be sent to destroy the Christian faith as well as all other FALSE faiths and reestablish Islam on this planet for the final hour. Meaning all of mankind at that time frame will have a choice, it is either accept the truth or be condemned for good.
[quote]
why not all other people buddhist, atheist, hindus and even the so-called muslims of today??
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: hello young man, prophets are sent for all of humanity, it is those who are ignorant and arrogant that ended up being labeled otherwise and refusing guidance. Mankind had witnessed practically every kind of miracle and guidance but those that refuse to submit will eventually be the losers.
[quote]
and if this is the case that a prophet needs to come back to give a group of believers a second chance, then i think Prophet Mohammad (saw) also should pay us a visit to show 80% of the muslims today that his true message was the QURAN and not some hadith.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: I guess you have deluded yourself and not realized that the return of Christ is a SIGN for all of mankind. No matter what faith one holds in their hearts, they would have heard about Christ and his return even today , hence when such an event actually takes place the purpose is achieved and the results will be immense since the followers of Christ will first realize Christ was not a Christian and was actually a Muslim , thus most will opt to revert to Islam and others that where atheists and other faiths may also realize that they were in error and may opt o revert to Islam. In this manner , the entire globe will become Muslims and hence this planet will prosper for some time and jisyah will not be needed anymore , but eventually like it has been repeated over and over again , people will return to falsehoods due to the temptations of the shaitan and the final hour will dawn upon them. Meaning NO more Prophets and no more chances ….That is the essence of all scriptures.
[quote]
filhaal:
WHO ARE YOU TO SAY THAT DURING HIS FIRST MISSION PROPHET ISA FAILED!!!(again you are slandering a prophet, poor chap)
but of course you are allowed to that, because you are the wise, isn't it??
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: Hello, do you ever understand what you read? Did you not read in the Qur’an where it is written they killed him not? But boasted that they did? Now find that verse and THINK, scriptures are best understood by contemplation .
Now If you need help, don’t be shy to ask, many in this forum are capable to explain as to why the Prophet Eesa (as) failed to achieve what was his intended goals. But fulfilled Allah (swt) goals as prophesied from the beginning.
[quote]
YOU should be saying that prophet Isa (saw) succeded in his mission, that the christians went astray can not be seen as a failure of the prophet!!!
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: ahh you mean I should say things according to my whims and fancies and end up like you? Sorry, religious issues are based on scripture and what I say is from scripture not from my mind. The Prophet can only achieve what Allah (swt) had assigned for him to achieve, here the redemption of the Jews failed because their temple had to be destroyed due to the aggression the Jews showed towards the Prophet who was sent to redeem them and reestablish Islam as taught by Prophet Moses (pbuh) .
[quote]
a prophet is only a warner and a bearer of glad tidings, whether someone follows his orders is the choice of the peoples themselves!! AND the choice of a people cannot be used as a success percentage of a prophet!! got this one, dear boy!!
[/quote]
Ibrahim says : first you are only old enough to be a son to me , so calling your elder brother a boy shows how ignorant you are .
Second THINK! ( you don’t seem to be able to do that very well). OUR Creator did not create a man in an unique and extraordinary way so that he will die like the rest of mankind without accomplishing what had been designed for mankind by Allah (swt). All that had been designed by the Allah (swt) had been revealed/foretold to mankind at various stages. Your problem is that you may only know parts of the Qur’an ( not fully understanding even that) whilst negating prophetic teachings and being totally ignorant of earlier revelations, as such I need to pity you and excuse you.
Now study this
Allah, the Exalted, says:
19:21 He said: "So (it will be): ** thy Lord saith `That is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': it is a matter (so) decreed."**
[quote]
BTW which cross is Prophet Isa (saw) going to break, the one in the Vatican, Jerusalem??
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: I am sure you will find that out sooner or later as for Muslims they only need to understand the facts as to why you need to spin in this manner.
1) You denied Allah the Most High, when you denied the truth as what had been foretold in scriptures and taught by His chosen Prophets from the beginning.
2) you slandered the prophet (pbuh) when you cast doubts on what he had conveyed
3) You slandered the vanguard of Islam who took pride in preserving the Prophetic teachings
4) You slandered the pious Muslims who had for 1432 years worked hard to maintain and disseminate the TRUTH for generations to come.
5) you are adamant in not being able to admit to your own errors/misconceptions even when corrected by others .
So filhaal, deal with it, in this medium you may say what you like but know for sure by your own words you can condemn yourself
Kindly ponder and contemplate on:-
Allah, the Exalted, says:
2: 284 To Allah belongeth all that is in the heavens and on earth. ** Whether ye show what is in your minds or conceal it Allah calleth you to account for it.** He forgiveth whom He pleaseth and punisheth whom He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things.
Hope that helps
Was salaam
Ibrahim
Allah, the Exalted, says:
** "Not a word ** does he (or she) utter, but there is a watcher by him ready (to record it).'' (50:18)
[quote]
Originally posted by Ibrahim:
**Dear Filhaal it is called wisdom! It is an essence, not a thing, not a thought, not even an idea. that allows some to analyze matters better than others, hence from what you have shown, you are incompetent when it comes to religious matters that does not mean you are incompetent in everything else but in religious matters you have shown it once too often. Sorry I am only being honest.
**
[/quote]
there's only word to describe this: ARROGANCE
dear all salaam,
you have written a very long post, and i have taken the pains to go through it, but you did not answer the second part of my second post. now why is that??? (on the meaning of wafat)
ibrahim:
Dear Filhaal it is called wisdom! It is an essence, not a thing, not a thought, not even an idea. that allows some to analyze
matters better than others, hence from what you have shown, you are incompetent when it comes to religious matters that
does not mean you are incompetent in everything else but in religious matters you have shown it once too often. Sorry I am
only being honest.
filhaal:
so you think that knowing a few hadith by heart, you have attained this thing called WISDOM!! your being to overconfident!!
Ibrahim says : dear young man! I have been around for quite some time and this issue has been raised by the ahmedia click
before this and responded by me to which they have ran away. Now I wish not to brag, all you have to do is make a search
for my posts addressed to Pakistaniaboard on this forum and you will see the depth I have covered and the shame that had
been heaped on her. Pakistaniaboard had been thrashed left right and center , on many threads for her follies by many posters
in this forum, now days I just ignore her posts since it is useless to argue with deceivers who are self deluding souls.
filhaal:
you are writing this in order to scare me of!!think again.
the reason you do not answer PakistaniAbroads post is mostly you do not have any appropriate answer from your hadith database to answer with!!
Ibrahim says: woah, hold your horses, so now you claim you know better and Allah (swt) did not created the Christ in a unique
manner for an unique purpose? Or why do you suppose a virgin had to give birth to this prophet?
filhaal:
you have not read the QURAN properly, you are basing your opinion ( your so-called knowledge) on the BIBLE and again your favourite hadith!!
ibrahim:
Second THINK! ( you don’t seem to be able to do that very well). OUR Creator did not create a man in an unique and
extraordinary way so that he will die like the rest of mankind without accomplishing what had been designed for mankind by
Allah (swt).
filhaal:
why should prophet Isa (saw) not die (and i am not saying that he died on the cross)like every other mortal?? you have not given an answer to my previous post concerning the death (wafat) of prophet Isa!!
ibrahim:
All that had been designed by the Allah (swt) had been revealed/foretold to mankind at various stages. Your
problem is that you may only know parts of the Qur’an ( not fully understanding even that) whilst negating prophetic
teachings and being totally ignorant of earlier revelations, as such I need to pity you and excuse you.
filhaal:
so, you are suggesting that you do undertsand the QURAN!!
if you had understood the whole QURAN properly, then you would not have said the things about Prophet Isa that you are saying now!!
IF the second Coming of Prophet Isa was a fact then GOD would have clearly mentioned it in his BOOK, this is the greatest evidence against this hadith!!