So you opted not to give "an honest and credible answer"?
alpha1 salaam,
nice joke!!
have you read my post above!!
btw i apologized for the long post NOT CONCERNING MY VIEW!!
Filhal
wa alaikum wasalaam.
I read both posts, and am yet to find any credability in your reply.
alpha1,
salaam,
so, after reading the ayats which ibrahim posted in his defence, you are convinced that the Prophet (saw) knew the future!!
that's odd!!
[quote]
Originally posted by filhaal:
**alpha1,
salaam,
so, after reading the ayats which ibrahim posted in his defence, you are convinced that the Prophet (saw) knew the future!!
that's odd!!**
[/quote]
Filhal - let me give you my reasons for rejecting your manhaj (methods):
Over the past millenia and a half or so there have been a multitude of opinions, people who have differed on the fundemental principles of this religion. Im not talking about superficial differences but differences in aqeedah. How is the common person to differentiate between all of these? How does a person who is not an alim distinguish what is right from what is wrong?
I'll give you an example, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed to be following the Qur'an and yet he declared the status of Nabowat upon himself. The Jahmiyah claimed to follow the Qur'an, the Ashariya, the Rafidah, and so on and so on. All these different groups came and said that yes we are following the Kitab of Allah according to their own interpretation and understanding.
My freind, speech is a wonderful yet decietful thing, many people will convince you that black is white and the masses have gone along with it many a time - the Nazis convinced the German populas that the Jews were to be hated and exterminated.
Islam is a completed religion, one that has been perfected by the Allmighty. Observe:
Al-Ma'idah - 5:3
Forbidden to you (for food) are: Al-Maytatah (the dead animals - cattle-beast not slaughtered), blood, the flesh of swine, and the meat of that which has been slaughtered as a sacrifice for others than Allâh, or has been slaughtered for idols, etc., or on which Allâh's Name has not been mentioned while slaughtering, and that which has been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by the goring of horns - and that which has been (partly) eaten by a wild animal - unless you are able to slaughter it (before its death) and that which is sacrificed (slaughtered) on AnNusub (stone altars). (Forbidden) also is to use arrows seeking luck or decision, (all) that is Fisqun (disobedience of Allâh and sin). This day, those who disbelieved have given up all hope of your religion, so fear them not, but fear Me. This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed my favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islâm as your religion. But as for him who is forced by severe hunger, with no inclination to sin (such can eat these above-mentioned meats), then surely, Allâh is OftForgiving, Most Merciful.
Therefore, once you have perfection, there is only one thing after you try to add anything onto it - imperfection.
Thus comes the yard-stick with which all muslims can distinguish between all these groups:
Brother/sister, thank you for your arguments in regards to the Qur'an and the sunnah - but can you please tell me which of the earlier muslims thought this way? Please tell me which of the scholars, the earlier generations, or the companions thought like you did?
For if what you bring to this forum is an innovation, then know what you have brought is false - Islam was perfected from day 1 - if you are right, we would have people like you from amongst the first muslims.
May Allah guide me to the straight path. May He guide you also.
Ameen.
[This message has been edited by Alpha1 (edited July 31, 2002).]
salaam alpha1,
i understand your point completely!!
[quote]
Islam is a completed religion, one that has been perfected by the Allmighty.
[/quote]
i totally agree with this. but i am not trying to add something to this DEEN!!
and my point is certainly not to mislead people.
Then tell us who amongst the first generations of muslims held the beliefs that you do, that the Nabi has not told us anything about the future, and in particular that the Nabi only gave us the Qur'an and no other form of guidance?
Until you have established that your way is that of the first muslims, what you have brought here is an innovation - a new thing in this religion.
As for misleading muslims, only Allah knows what is in your heart.
[This message has been edited by Alpha1 (edited July 31, 2002).]
** PROPHET JESUSas HAS DIED ACCORDING TO THE QURAN :**
The Quran is quite clear that Hadhrat Jesusas has passed away, and gives no support to the concept of Hadhrat Jesusas physically going to heaven. Some specific verses will now be considered:
"Jesus said, I am a servant of Allah. He has given me the Book and made me a prophet. And He has made me blessed wheresoever I may be and has enjoined on me prayer and alms-giving so long as I live. He has made me dutiful toward my mother, and He has not made me haughty and unblessed. Peace was on me the day I was born, and peace there shall be on the day I shall die, and the day I shall be raised up to life again." (19:31-4)
The verse shows Hadhrat Jesusas must have died, and could not exist in heaven with his physical body:
If he was still alive, he would have to give alms in heaven, but who would need alms there?
If he would descend again to earth alive, he would have to follow the Jewish prescriptions on both prayer and alms-giving - and could not be a follower of Islamic law.
Did his mother accompany him to heaven physically? How could he otherwise behave like a dutiful son towards her?
"Keep in mind when God will say to Jesus, son of Mary: Didst thou say to people: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? - and he will answer, Holy art Thou, I could never say that to which I had no right. If I had said it, Thou wouldst have surely known it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy mind. It is only Thou who art the Knower of hidden things. I said nothing to them except that which Thou didst command me: Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them, but since Thou didst cause me to die, Thou hast been the Watcher over them, and Thou art Witness over all things." (5:117-8)
The verse proves that:
The corruption of Christian doctrine took place after the death of Hadhrat Jesusas. If Hadhrat Jesusas is still alive, as some Muslims believe, then Christianity must still be pure.
The same Hadhrat Jesusas will not appear a second time in this world, as he would then become aware that Christians had now taken his mother as Divine, and could not, therefore plead ignorance in front of God's judgment seat.
The Quran says about persons or beings worshiped as God: "They are dead, not living; and they know not when they will be raised." (16:21)
If Hadhrat Jesusas is alive, as some Muslims believe, he must be God
[This message has been edited by zaksnoor (edited July 31, 2002).]
salaam,
[quote]
Originally posted by Alpha1:
Then tell us who amongst the first generations of muslims held the beliefs that you do, that the Nabi has not told us anything about the future
[/quote]
filhaal:
is ayat 7:188 not enough proof?? in this ayat GOD says to his Prophet (saw) to tell people that he does not know the UNSEEN (GHAIB), future.
concerning the 'death' of prophet Isa (SAW),
this is what i put in one of my earlier posts:
Ya Isa, inni mutawaffika wa rafi’uka ilaiya 3:54
The key word here is "wafat" . The most correct meaning of "wafat" is death, or take away soul. If soul is taken
away from a person, it
is nothing but death. The problem arises with regards to this verse, when Muslims refuse to interpret the meaning of
"wafat" as
death.
this word "wafat" is translated as death in at least 20 different instances in the quran. However, in this particular verse,
people
interpreted the meaning as ‘take away’ and suggest physical ascension. my question to you why is this time the word "wafat" translated and interpreted as 'take away' whereas in the rest of the QURAN it is translated as death??
[This message has been edited by filhaal (edited July 31, 2002).]
Let us not confuse the issue here Filhal.
You have said that the Nabi has not fortold any of the events that will come to pass. You have also said that the Nabi only gave us the Qur'an and no other guidance.
Now please tell us who from among the earlier generation of Muslims thought like this?
Your own interpretations are just fine and dandy, but until you can convince me that the first muslims thought like you - you have brought nothing but an innovation.
PA
I'm glad to see that you are still alive and well with the Grace of Allah and have been keeping 'my pals' amused whilst I've been away. 'Alhumdulillah'.
It seems as though you've also found yourself an associate in Filhaal. Very Good. Business must be booming!
Getting back to the topic. We all know very well that you refute and do not accept ALL A'Hadeeth.
So let's get back to the Qur'aan. The primary source.
The Surah takes its name from the word An-Nisa (women) which occurs in the very first ayat, and then 16 times more in some other ayats of the Surah. In fact, the rights of Women is one of the major topics of the discourse of the Surah.
The period of revelation of the discourses of this Surah seem to be from the end of Hijrah 3 to the end of Hirah 6. The exact date of the revelations is unknown, however, one may determine fairly correctly the period during which it must have been revealed by referring to the commandments of certain events described in it.
Unfortunately since you reject all A'Hadeeth,you cannot agree to my Synopsis.
Nevertheless, I will continue to give my opinion and invite you and Filhaal to give me your in depth understanding of the discourse of this Surah, without using A'Hadeeth as a reference.
For instance, the discourse of ayat 1 to 28, dealing with the division of inheritance of the deceases persons and the rights of the orphans and the widows, was revealed in Hijrah 3, after the battle of Uhud which rendered fatherless many a Muslim family.
We learn that the commandment regarding Salah in war time was revealed during the expedition of Dhat al-Riqa' which took place in Hijrah 4. Hence we infer that the discourse of ayat 101 to 104 was revealed on that occasion. Again we know that Banu Nadir were exiled from Madinah in Rabi Awwal of Hijrah 4, and therefore, the discourse of ayat 44 to 57 which contains the last warning to the Jews in ayat 47 must have been revealed sometime before their expulsion.
Similarily the permission to perform Tayammum, that is to use earth when water is not available for ablution, was revealed during the expedition of Banu Al-Mustaliq, which took place in Sha'ban of Hijrah 6. Hence the discourse which contains Tayammum ayat 43, must have been revealed during that period.
Though the Surah mainly deals with the moral and social reforms which the Ummah badly needed at that critical time, yet the ground work was simultaneously being laid for the Tabligh (propogation) of Islam. We find in the Surah, the superior moral and cultural values of Islam conspicuously mentioned by way of comparison with and criticism of the wrong religious conceptions of the People of The Book and of the mushrikeen.
I am sure you get the drift of my Sypnosis by now, so I will spare you all the ayats and will move on straight to the ayat in question concerning Jesus.
In the discourse of ayat 153-161, first is mentioned a demand of the Jews of Madinah, who asked the Prophet PBUH to invoke Allah to cause a Book to descend upon them from heaven, if he were a true Prophet. In the answer to their demand is related the entire history of wrong doings of Banu Isra'il from the time of Prophet Moses AS to the time of Prophet Jesus AS. They broke their convenants, rejected Allah's guidance, slew some of the Prophets without any justification and uttered awesome calumny against Mary AS. They boasted of having slain Prophet Jesus AS, whereas in fact they slew him not, nor did they crucify him, but only alikeness of him was made to appear before them. Allah raised Prophet Jesus AS unto Himself, and there will be none among the People of the Book but will surely believe in this Truth before his death, though that belief at that time will be of no use to them, and he shall be a witness against them on the Day of Resurrection.
In fact, it was because of these and other wrongdoings of Banu Isra'il who indulged in usury, against its clear prohibition laid down in Exodus 22:25-27, unlawfully devoured properties of other people and barred them from Allahs way that they were forbidden the use of many lawful things. However, the True Belivers among them and the Muslims are reassured in ayat 162.
Furthermore, when your spirit ascends from the physical body and leaves the physical body behind. This is known as DEATH. And not Astral Travel or the likes thereof.
You have quite clearly stated that Jesus' spirit ascended to AllAH and not the body. This in turn means that Jesus died. If this is truly the case, then what does the ayat mean when it claims that they killed him NOT!!!!!!
Either the ayat is wrong or you are wrong!!!
Take a pick.
For me the ayat can never be wrong, which only leaves one more alternative.
I'm sure you have already worked out in your heart what that alternative is, but unfortunately you cannot admit the alternative, as Pride has got the better of you.
As I have said before, Pride belongs to Allah and Allah alone!!!!
Digest my friend.
PA
I also forgot to mention. Why do the Christians also believe that Jesus shall return.
What A'Hadeeth did they follow!!!!!
If you want, I can quote you verses from the Bible confirming the Christian belief.
A little research won't do u no harm.
[quote]
You have quite clearly stated that Jesus' spirit ascended to AllAH and not the body. This in turn means that Jesus died. If this is truly the case, then what does the ayat mean when it claims that they killed him NOT!!!!!!
Either the ayat is wrong or you are wrong!!!
[/quote]
Dear Mr. Sholay...
If Jesus was brought down alive from Cross , as it happened, and later he died a natural death, it doesnt contradict to the ayat in Quran which u r refering. Infact it doesnt contradict to any ayat or hadith. So the truth is ... Jesus did not die on cross, he was brought alive after 3 hours of crucifiction from the cross, jews thought he was dead, yet he was alive, his gossiples took him, gave him food and later he did hijrat towards the east and died in Kashmir after so many years. Even the valley 'Murree' is named after 'Mary'. Everything gets so cleared and according to Quran and Sunnah if we let Jesus die.
As far as second coming of Jesus is concerned, the other person will be born in Ummat-e-Muhammadiyya and will be born in the spirit of Jesus.
Zaksnoor
The Ahmedy movement have to bury Jesus in Kashmir, otherwise the movements credibility disintigrates.
The fact is that Jesus did not die. The Qur'aan testifies to this. Please read and digest the actual ayat.
Jewish tradition and punishment at the time dictated that no body was to be removed from the cross until they are actually DEAD.
How on earth could Jesus be brought down alive and then flee under disguise and live in Kashmir as you foolishly claim.
This contradicts the Qur'aan time and time again.
Please read the Qur'aan with Tajweed and Tawheed and then come back to me with clear cut arguments with basis.
Otherwise I might just start picking on you.
Dear Mr. Sholay, here is the evidence for you from Quran!
EVIDENCE FROM QURAN:
**The notion that Hadhrat Jesusas floated into the sky towards God is an Un-Quranic concept. **
Before going into the specific verses which refute this popular belief, it should be noted that Heaven is a spiritual state which our souls experience AFTER death. It is not a physical location beyond the stratosphere. By climbing Mount Everest, we do not come closer to God!
Humans, according to the Quran, must live and die in the physical universe.
**“And for you there is an abode on the earth and a provision for a time, He said, therein shall you live and therein shall you die and therefrom shall you be brought forth.” ( 7:25-6)
“Have we not made the earth so as to hold the living and the dead?” (77:26-7) **
On one occasion the enemies of the Holy Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, challenged him that they will not believe in him unless he “ascend up into heaven” and “send down to us a Book.” (17:93) The Holy Prophetsaw replied: **“Holy is my Lord! I am but a mortal sent as a messenger.” (17:93) **
Thus the Prophets, like all humans, lived and died on the earth. If Jesus is alive today, he must be more than a mortal.
IF ANY HUMAN BEING WAS ABLE TO GO TO HEAVEN WITH HIS PHYSICAL BODY THEN IT WOULD HAVE BEEN OUR BELOVED HOLY PROPHET MUHAMMADsaw, THE GREATEST OF ALL PROPHETS. But the verses above indicate that since he is but a man, it is not possible.
“I will cause you to die”
An important verse is the following:
**“When Allah said, O Jesus, I will cause you to die and will raise you to myself, and will clear thee of those who disbelieve, and will place those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection, then to Me shall be your return and I will judge between you concerning that wherein you differ.” (3:56) **
The verse clearly indicates that Hadhrat Jesusas was to die a natural death and then only would he be raised to Allah. The verse does not say that Hadhrat Jesusas will be raised first then will die.
An important word used in the Quran is mutawaffi, derived from tawaffa. When God is the subject and a human is the object, tawaffa means to take away the soul, i.e, death.
Zamakhshari (467-538 A.H), an Arab linguist of great repute says, “Mutawaffika means, I will protect you from being killed by the people and will grant you full lease of life ordained for you, and will cause you to die a natural death not being killed (Kashshaf).” Scholars and commentators like Hazrat Ibn Abbas, Imam Malik, Imam Bukhari, Imam ibn Hazm, Imam ibn Qayyin, Qatadah, Wahhab and others are of the same view.
Note that the same word Tawaffa, has been used in other places in the Quran to indicate death. For example, 2:235: **“and those of you who die (yatawaffou-na) and leave wives behind, these wives shall wait concerning themselves for four months and ten days.” **
Another important word is rafaa, which means raising, elevating, lifting, exaltation, honor. When the rafaa of a man is spoken of as being towards Allah, the meaning is invariably spiritual elevation and exaltation. For example the Quran says about Prophet Enoch:** “We exalted him to a lofty station (19:58).” **
A commentary of the Quran by Ibn Khatib (“modern” Egyptian Commentary) summarizes: **“And those who assert that Jesus is dead, point to the word of the exalted God: every soul shall taste death, and Jesus, peace be upon him belonged to the human species for which death is ordained. Some people presume that he is dead, and lies buried in a locality which they mention by name, and may be it is India, and God - may He be exalted - knows best what He has said and done.” **
**The Crucifixion **
The verse that refers to the crucifixion is 4:158,159:
**“And for their saying, We did slay the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah; whereas they slew him not, nor did they bring about his death upon the cross, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified; and those who differ therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it; they have no certain knowledge thereof, but pursue only a conjecture; and they did not arrive at a certainty concerning it. On the contrary, Allah exalted him to himself. And Allah is Mighty, Wise.” **
The argument of the Jews was that because Hadhrat Jesusas died on the cross, considered an accursed death according to the law of the Torah, Hadhrat Jesusas could not be a true prophet. The Quran rejects the slaying of Hadhrat Jesusas in any form, including killing by nailing to the cross. Nothing in the verse suggests Hadhrat Jesusas was NOT nailed to the cross: the verse only denies DEATH by nailing to the cross.
The words “Shubbi-ha la hum” means “he made it or him to be like it or him”, or “dubious.” The question arises, who is the person who was made to appear “like one crucified.” Clearly it was Hadhrat Jesusas whom the Jews tried to crucify or slay. The theory invented by some Muslim commentators that someone else was made to look like Hadhrat Jesusas and was then crucified in his place, is simply absurd. The context of the verse cannot be twisted to make room for someone else. No one else is mentioned. Besides, the belief that God made someone else, an innocent person, look like Hadhrat Jesusas, and die in his place, makes God look very cruel.
As I will show in a future article, the belief of a Jesus-look-alike dying on the cross instead of Hadhrat Jesusas has its origin in Christianity, and came into Islamic belief through conversion of Christians to Muslims.
So the Quran is clear that Hadhrat Jesusas only appeared to be crucified, and in fact the Jews were in a state of doubt.
The last portion quoted above refers to rafaa, spiritual exaltation. The plan of the Jews to make Hadhrat Jesusas appear accursed by making him die the accursed death of crucifixion failed, and on the contrary, Hadhrat Jesusas survived the crucifixion. In the sight of Allah, Hadhrat Jesusas was not accursed.
In summary, according to the Quran, humans live and die in the physical universe. Prophets are human beings. Prophets, like all humans, are subject to hunger, pain, death, etc. The Quran is clear that Hadhrat Jesusas was a human being like the Holy Prophet Muhammadas. To say that Hadhrat Jesusas is alive today, 2000 years after he was born, is to make him more than a human. The Laws of God do not change. In fact, the Quran makes a general statement:** “But you will never find any change in the way of Allah, nor will you find any alteration in the way of Allah.” (35:44) **
[quote]
filhaal: thank you for calling me "dear"...........
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: Salaams to all
Hello Filhaal, do you have any other option other than trying to change the subject ? Now you seem confident you can escape from your own folly by trying to argue the Prophets did not know the future. The problem here kiddo is that due to your own incompetence you did not realize what I am saying.
I said the Prophets do not know the future as to what will happen tomorrow or when the end will take place as to Verse 7:188 you quoted but they will prophesize as Allah (swt) had guided them because they are the WARNER . To this FACT I quoted a number of verses and you just did not have the ability to understand what they meant. It is a pity but than again those who deviate from the path of Allah (swt) are left to astray as Allah (swt) so willed and no amount of reason will suffice them .
Instead you are now more amused by me calling you dear , maybe I should call you darling like I address Pakistaniabroad, whilst not addressing the questions that have been repeated over and over again. What a shame!
[quote]
filhaal: these translation, which you took from the dictionary, are in themselves right. but we have to look at the quranic term "NABI", which is usually translated with the word prophet. in the quran whenever the word nabi is used it is associated with divinely inspired scriptures!!
[/quote]
Ibrahim says : Filhaal ! I guess next you will be teaching your father how to suck his thumb, since now you go so low as to deny what Allah (swt) said in order to evade the questions and insist Prophets do not prophecy
READ! AND READ AGAIN UNTIL IT GETS THROUGH TO YOU
35:23 ** Thou art no other than a warner. **
24 Verily We have sent thee in truth ** as a bearer of glad tidings and as a warner:** and there never was a people without a warner having lived among them (in the past).
25 And if they reject ** thee** so did their predecessors ** to whom came their apostles with Clear Signs Books of Dark Prophecies and the Book of Enlightenment. **
Ibrahim says : Filhaal , Now you will have to explain why apostles came with books of dark prophecies and who gave them such prophecies ( which foretold the hellish future or what will come to pass at some future date and time when men fail to heed what is being revealed by them) .
** So for the record
1) you claimed a hadith (saying of the Prophet of a future event = prophecy) as Blasphemous
2) you claimed it was illogical
3) you claimed the Prophet (pbuh) NEVER said it , (meaning you had witnesses it yourself)
4) you claimed that hadith contradicts the Qur?an
5) now you say the Prophets will NEVER prophecy ( not know anything that will happen in the future)
that is just wonderful, the more you talk the more evidence you present to establish that you are a deviant and propagating false teachings about Islam on the net.**
thus you have proclaimed yourself a deviant the moment you failed to amend your statements or provide evidence to back them up.
[quote]
3:81 , 2:213 , so, the definition of NABI according to the quran is: prophets who receive divine revelation, AND NOT PREDICTORS OF FUTURE EVENTS!!
[/quote]
Ibrahim says : Was anyone making a claim that Prophets predicted ALL future events ???? or did you fail to understand what WARNERS will do or have to do in order to warn ???
Warning is given by Warners, because they know what will come to pass in the future?get it??? How they know it?, is because they have been given visions and inspirations of such events , that is why we call them prophets. get it???
Now in case you don?t, ponder over this???
3: 183 They (also) said: "Allah took our promise ** not to believe in an Apostle unless** He showed us a sacrifice consumed by fire (from heaven)." Say: ** "There came to you Apostles before me with clear signs and even with what ye ask for:** why then did ye slay them if ye speak the truth?
184 ** Then if they reject thee so were rejected Apostles before thee who came with clear Signs Books of dark prophecies and the Book of enlightenment.**
again read and ponder?..
16:43 ** And before thee also the apostles We sent were but men to whom We granted inspiration:** if ye realize this not ask of those who possess the Message
44 ** (We sent them) with Clear Signs and Books of dark prophecies;** and We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message; that thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them and that they may give thought.
Ibrahim says: hence Filhaal , again you have fumbled and shown that you have little regard for honesty but only the desire to spread your evil without sound knowledge as to what you are saying.
[quote]
filhaal:this ayat is talking about prophet Mohammad (saw) being the last NABI, does not say anything of him (saw) knowing the FUTURE!! BTW isn't 70:40 a different ayat, than the one you are refering here??
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: Hello! AWAKE or dreaming??? I did not quote any ayah to establish prophets knew the future but to convey prophets will prophecy as such information is revealed to them by Allah (swt). That is ONE of their function as WARNERS, failing which how will they be acting as warners?? I am sorry I forgot you were incompetent to understand such matters.
** BTW If you use deviant translations ( ahmadi /shia /submitters) English or other than Arabic translations, Yes verse numbers may differ as well as missing verses and mistranslations will be prevalent**
I Generally use Yusof Ali translation to avoid all this problems so if you find my quotes differencing from yours , it is because you may be using a deviant or sectarian translation meant to market their deception.
[quote]
filhaal:the ayat (7:188) which i quoted earlier, is telling us that the Prophet (saw) did not have ANY knowledge about the FUTURE, irrespective if it was to happen tomorrow or on a latter occasion!! how do you make the distinction based on this verse that the Prophet (saw) did not know what was to happen tomorrow, but still knew events that were to happen after that???
[/quote]
Ibrahim says : Have you heard of context??? Now go and read that passage as to why he is being instructed to say as such in order to avoid answering the question posed by the rejecters (just like you trying to twist and turn ) who want to know when the end will take place.
Just in case you miss it ..READ!
7: 187 ** They ask thee about the (final) hour when will be its appointed time?** Say: "The knowledge thereof is with my Lord (alone): ** none but He can reveal as to when it will occur.** Heavy were its burden through the heavens and the earth. Only all of a sudden will it come to you. They ask thee as if thou wert eager in search thereof: Say: "The knowledge thereof is with Allah (alone) but most men know not."
HENCE verse 7:188 instructs the prophet to say he does not know the unseen, this is common sense and has nothing to do with prophesies of events that will take place before the end which will be revealed as a warning and guide for believers
[7:188]
YUSUFALI:
Say: "I have no power over any good or harm to myself except as Allah willeth. If I had knowledge of the unseen, I should have multiplied all good, and no evil should have touched me: I am but a warner, and a bringer of glad tidings to those who have faith."
PICKTHAL:
Say: For myself I have no power to benefit, nor power to hurt, save that which Allah willeth. ** Had I knowledge of the Unseen, ** I should have abundance of wealth, and adversity would not touch me.** I am but a warner,** and a bearer of good tidings unto folk who believe.
SHAKIR:
Say: I do not control any benefit or harm for my own soul except as Allah please; ** and had I known the unseen** I would have had much of good and no evil would have touched me; **I am nothing but a warner **and the giver of good news to a people who believe.
** FILHAAL! NOW TELL US FROM WHICH TRANSLATION DO YOU QUOTE FROM???? **
[quote]
filhaal: again you quoted these verses to support your view. but these ayats have nothing to do with the second coming of Christ or knowledge about the future in general!!
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: hello!! Day Dreaming??? , why would I need to quote the verses concerning the return of Christ, ** which has been already quoted from the begining by Muslims in this very thread??? **
[quote]
Prophet Mohammad (saw) is asking GOD to show him about something the people are WARNED AGAINST, not about the events of the future!!
[/quote]
Ibrahim says : hellooooo Filhaal ! Wake up , "something people should be warned against", is not events in the past but events that will materialize in the FUTURE!!
Get it???
Future events that will come to pass , some time in the future, acts as warnings for mankind , than only it is a warning, what has taken place in the past (is no more a warning) only what will take place in the future can be a warning that people can look forward to witnessing.
[quote]
Ibrahim Earlier: * Now since you claimed the hadith concerning Christ which is in fact an extension of verses revealed in the Qur.an is false, ** show us where in the Qur.an had Allah (swt) declared the Christians false in their understanding that Christ had been raised to heaven???** *
filhaal: BTW hadith....extension of the verses in the QURAN??? simple answer to the second part of your comment, look at the verses from which this thread started and try to understand the meaning of two essential words: 1. mutawafika 2. raafiuka
[/quote]
Ibrahim says Hello, my question to you was simple
Show me where in the Qur?an Allah (swt) claimed Christ was buried in Kashmir or any other place, since the Christians have always claimed Christ had been raised up .
Now THINK. Allah (swt) had given corrections in the Qur?an for the false claims of the Christians now why have you not produced or seen any verse in the Qur?an if their claim that Christ had been raised up was false???
Work on it!
SO Now for the SEVENTH TIME , let me set the record straight
1) you claimed a hadith (saying of the Prophet of a future event = prophecy) as Blasphemous
2) you claimed it was illogical
3) you claimed the Prophet (pbuh) NEVER said it , (meaning you had witnesses it yourself)
4) you claimed that hadith contradicts the Qur?an
5) now you say the Prophets will NEVER prophecy ( meaning not know anything that will happen in the future)
** NOW I expect some credible evidence for the above statements to be proven as true, failing which you have established that you are a deviant by your own statements since you wish not to retract or amend them, even after so many people have made many attempts to correct you **
was salaam
Ibrahim
Allah, the Exalted, says:
"When the hypocrites come to you (O Muhammad (PBUH)), they say: `We bear witness that you are indeed the Messenger of Allah.' Allah knows that you are indeed His Messenger, and Allah bears witness that the hypocrites are liars indeed.'' (63:1)
AND HERE IS THE EVIDENCE FROM HADITH!
The fact that Jesus (peace be upon him) is dead is clearly mentioned in the sayings of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).
These will be outlined below:
**"If Jesus and Moses had been alive, they would have had no choice but to follow me." (Kathir vol II, p 245 and al yawaqit wal Jawahir, part 2, page 24).
"Jesus son of Mary lived for 120 years, and I see myself as only entering upon the beginning of the sixties." (Kanz al Ummal, part 6, p.120). **
In Bukhari, it is reported that in the spiritual event known as the miraj, the Holy Prophetsaw saw Hadhrat Yahyaas and Hadhrat Jesusas in the second heaven. If Hadhrat Yahyaas is dead, then Hadhrat Jesusas is dead, for the dead do not keep company with the living.
In Bukhari, it is recorded that after the death of Hadhrat Muhammadsaw, some of the companions, among them Hadhrat Umar ibn al-Khattabra, doubted he was really dead. However, Hadhrat Abu Bakrra, ascended to the pulpit in the Mosque and recited the Quranic verse: Muhammad is only a Messenger. *All Messengers before him have passed away. If he dies, or is killed, will you then turn upon your heels? (3:145) *
After the short speech and recitation of this verse, the companions realized that indeed, the Holy Prophet Muhammadsaw had passed away. *NO ONE OBJECTED THAT HADHRAT JESUSas OR ANY OTHER PROPHET HAD NOT DIED. EVERYONE ACCEPTED AND CONFIRMED THE DEATH OF ALL PREVIOUS PROPHETS. THIS WAS THE FIRST IJMA OR CONSENSUS OF THE MUSLIM COMMUNITY. *
The family of the Holy Prophet Muhammadsaw were also agreed on the death of Hadhrat Jesusas. Imam Hasanra, recounting the events relating to the death of Hadhrat Alira, stated, "he (Ali) died during the 27th night of the month of Ramadan, the same night that the spirit of Jesus was raised to heaven." (Tabaqat Ibn Sa'ad, vol III Page 26).
The words of the Holy Prophetsaw, his family, and his companions all indicate that Hadhrat Jesusas passed away like all mortals
[quote]
Before going into the specific verses which refute this popular belief, it should be noted that** Heaven is a spiritual state which our souls experience AFTER death.** It is not a physical location beyond the stratosphere.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: salaams to all
Dear zaksnoor, It is quite apparent from your above statements that you do not understand the Qur?an nor your Creator.
Simply put OUR Creator designed us ( mankind) out of DUST in a physical form in heaven .
In case you have doubts kindly read and contemplate on the under mentioned verses.
2: 35 We said: "O Adam! ** dwell thou and thy wife in the garden and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will but approach not this tree** or ye run into harm and transgression."
36 Then did Satan make them ** slip from the (garden)** and get them out of the state (of felicity) in which they had been. ** We said: "Get ye down all (ye people) with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling place and your means of livelihood for a time." **
Ibrahim says: As such it is obvious you have been misguided as to what heaven will be. The dogma that it is a spiritual state is a hindu concept which the hindus fabricated because they have misconceived what had been revealed to Prophet Ibrahim (as) and turned it into Hinduism.
Further evidence that heaven is a physical state is given in the Qur?an where Prophet Eesa (as) was requested to beseech Allah (swt) for some food from heaven and the table spread from heaven was sent down for the disciples of Christ to witness for themselves is more than enough evidence to proof that heaven is not a spiritual state but a physical one. Man will remain as originally designed in a physical state on earth or in heaven.
Kindly read and contemplate.
5: 112 Behold! the disciples said: "O Jesus the son of Mary! ** can thy Lord send down to us a table set (with viands) from heaven?"** Said Jesus: "Fear Allah if ye have faith."
113 They said: "We only wish to eat thereof and satisfy our hearts ** and to know that thou hast indeed told us the truth; and that we ourselves may be witnesses to the miracle.**
114 Said Jesus the son of Mary: "O Allah our Lord! send us ** from heaven a table set (with viands) that there may be for us for the first and the last of us a solemn festival and a sign from Thee;** and provide for our sustenance for Thou art the best Sustainer (of our needs).
115 ** Allah said: "I will send it down unto you: ** but if any of you after that resisteth faith I will punish him with a penalty such as I have not inflicted on anyone among all the peoples.
Ibrahim say: thus it is obvious you are following ahmadi?ism or Hinduism and not Islam when you say heaven is a spiritual state. The rest of your arguments are naturally FLAWED too.
Hope you will redirect yourself soon.
Was salaam
Ibrahim
7: 40 To those who reject Our signs and treat them with arrogance no opening will there be of the gates of heaven ** nor will they enter the garden until the camel can pass through the eye of the needle: ** such is Our reward for those in sin.
salaam to all,
[quote]
Ibrahim says : Filhaal ! I guess next you will be teaching **your father **how to suck his thumb, since now you go so low
as to deny what Allah (swt) said in order to evade the questions and insist Prophets do not prophecy
[/quote]
filhaal:
ibrahim shall we not talk about our parents!!
you can call me anything you want, but getting towards someone's parents, shows how low you have sunk!! if you have arguments to present ok, but do not start including someone's parents!! i can do this too, but i will not lower myself to your level.........
dear moderators sentinel and akif, whenever someone says anything AGAINST your darling ibrahim, you immediately close down the thread calling people to behave!!what kind of maturity is ibrahim showing here, even if he is twice as old as the average person on this gupshup!!
for your kind information:
1. ibrahim, i am not a sunni, shia, ahmadi or deviator, I AM JUST A MUSLIM!!nothing more, nothing less. try to understand the meaning of the word MUSLIM from within the QURAN!!
- try to understand the meaning of the word NABI from within the QURAN, not a dictionary translation for the word Prophet, then you will understand what a NABI warns against!! (what kind of warning is this that a prophet will come back to kill a swine!!)
3.with respect to the death of Prophet Isa (saw) try to understand the meaning of the two crucial words from within the QURAN then you will understand that he is not coming back!!(mutawaffika rafi’uka)
BTW i have answered your questions already, but you do not and are not willing to understand!! The problem with you is because you are much older than the average person here that your EGO gets hurt whenever you can learn something from a younger Guppie!!
zaksnoor
Did you get chance to read the hadith which I posted here http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/Forum13/HTML/005509-2.html (Imam Mahdi, Hadhrat Eisa (as) and Dajjal… )
It talks about the coming of Jesus.
If you never try anything new, you’ll miss out on many of life’s great disappointments.